Mother and babies homes information sealed for 30 years

Jinglejangle69

Bowie wrote: »

Yes, that's how the mothers of stolen babies could be dismissed. I can see that. Unlikely the public will buy it though.
A generic soundbite of a dismissal won't work here we've had generations of this shyte.
Try tackling the topic.

Stolen dead kids from their parents because of the IRA and SF who you defend everyday?

Don't they deserve the truth and justice?

Stop with the faux outrage.

You're fooling noone.

Cluedo Monopoly

sunshinew wrote: »

And to the poster, (cluedo?) that keeps saying the women are likely old or dead now so releasing the information will cause no harm...please, please stop.

I never said that once. I said the mothers or forcibly adopted children that want to know about their past should be allowed access to that data.
I don't think the data should be made public in any way whatsoever. It is private personal data. If both parties are alive and want to make contact then so be it.

One example.

https://extra.ie/2018/06/03/news/real-life/kevin-battle-adopted-from-ireland

Mr Battle was born in July 1958 the Sean Ross Abbey mother and baby home in Roscrea, Co Tipperary, before being adopted by an American couple who had to donate $1,000 to the order.

Despite making efforts to contact authorities at the home over the decades, he had little success. ‘They told me over and over again that they didn’t know who my mother was or where she was from,’ he said.

Eventually, Mr Battle made contact with his family who were living in Wales and discovered that he had two brothers and three sisters. He learned that his mother was told he had died in New York when she tried to find him.

The nuns spent years lying to him about hit mother and even told him she was dead. She was looking for him too.

sunshinew

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

You really don't need to be scared about 'fallen women' anymore. Most of them are dead or very old. All they want is their personal data.

I was referring to this comment.

Cluedo Monopoly

sunshinew wrote: »

I was referring to this comment.

I think if you read all my posts, you will see the context of my reply. I would have preferred not to have used that awful phrase. People want to bury this awful period because they are not comfortable with it.

katiek102010

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

I never said that once. I said the mothers or forcibly adopted children that want to know about their past should be allowed access to that data.
I don't think the data should be made public in any way whatsoever. It is private personal data. If both parties are alive and want to make contact then so be it.

One example.

https://extra.ie/2018/06/03/news/real-life/kevin-battle-adopted-from-ireland



The nuns spent years lying to him about hit mother and even told him she was dead. She was looking for him too.

Heartbreaking and horrific. If they want to meat and are looking for each other they have every right to meet

TheChizler

katiek102010 wrote: »

Heartbreaking and horrific. If they want to meat and are looking for each other they have every right to meet

You need a middleman to make the connection and put them in contact though.

Donald Trump

katiek102010 wrote: »

Heartbreaking and horrific. If they want to meat and are looking for each other they have every right to meet

Someone already pointed out earlier in the thread that there is a system in place whereby parties can register their desire to meet etc. If there is a match then they will be put in contact to the extent requested.

No nuns involved

katiek102010

TheChizler wrote: »

You need a middleman to make the connection and put them in contact though.

That is where a fully capable and functioning social services department would come in. One that can provide counselling and a safe neutral space for the initial meetings to go ahead.

katiek102010

Donald Trump wrote: »

Someone already pointed out earlier in the thread that there is a system in place whereby parties can register their desire to meet etc. If there is a match then they will be put in contact to the extent requested.

No nuns involved

That is for more recent legal adoptions. As has previously been stated over and over, even the case mentioned a few comments back stated, this has been prevented in many of the cases of the mother and baby homes.

Information requests for records have been ignored, doors slammed in faces. People being lied to and told child or mother is deceased.

That is what the argument is over. They want a system in place whereby they can record if contact is wished and if both parties agree it is facilitated.

The victims just want the truth

VillageIdiot71

sunshinew wrote: »

I mentioned earlier up the thread that I am directly involved in an adoption within my family and I'm getting really fed up with blanket generalisations.

Its not about blanket generalisation. Its about what of principles we can reasonably commit to.

There might be any number of reasons why someone might want to avoid acknowledging parentage, and some of them might even be a belief that, in their case, its for the best.

Its just not a reasonable principle for the State to persist with.

katiek102010

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

Its not about blanket generalisation. Its about what of principles we can reasonably commit to.

I think honesty, openness, kindness respect and integrity would be a good start.

Allowing the victims to make decisions for themselves about their own lives and stop controlling them.

Any news is good news even if their family members don't want contact. Its the not knowing that hurts and is causing the anger.

TheChizler

katiek102010 wrote: »

That is where a fully capable and functioning social services department would come in. One that can provide counselling and a safe neutral space for the initial meetings to go ahead.

Being realistic, it was always going to end up being Tusla. Even if they created a new semi state just for this it would end up with the same people involved.

listermint

walshb wrote: »

They were the rules in AGS at the time..

She was a grown adult at the time. She was not forced to give her child away..

There's something seriously twisted inside when someone's first reaction when reading the full story about that to say rules are rules.

I mean it's in line with the theme of the posting but it's a bizarre odd line of thinking.

listermint

Alot of uncomfortable folks in here defending the government's position on this. I wouldn't put it beyond the pale to say they smiley defensive language is very parallel to the snipey defensive email responses from elected officials.

People only get this aggressive when they are not happy with what they are doing and it twitches their internal sense of morals and they don't like that uncomfortable feeling.

Donald Trump

listermint wrote: »

Alot of uncomfortable folks in here defending the government's position on this. I wouldn't put it beyond the pale to say they smiley defensive language is very parallel to the snipey defensive email responses from elected officials.

People only get this aggressive when they are not happy with what they are doing and it twitches their internal sense of morals and they don't like that uncomfortable feeling.

People aren't "defending the government". They are simply trying to explain the logic of why the solution others personally want can't be just allowed without potentially hurting a lot of people. Those people are only looking at it from one perspective which, for some, tends towards and emotive hysterical end of the spectrum.


There are no solutions which solve everything for everybody. So you have to take the best one for everybody. The one that solves most problems while causing the least amount of damage.



The best solution is the one that appears to exist already where, if both mother and child separately contact a centralised system indicating a desire to meet the other, then they can be put in contact. Anything else potentially hurts one of the victims and/or involves destroying privacy and trust in the system - which could have consequences for both women in future situations and for future testimony gathering exercises.



If you cannot understand the simple logic, then it is understandable that you might just think that people who are trying to explain it are just "de gubbermint spokespeople".



I don't give a shite about the government. We have gone from everything from people saying that the fact that Mary from down the road had a secret baby 30 years ago should be published publicly to another poster demanding that the adopted children be denied access to any SW unless the father's name is on their birth cert! You can't do that stuff. It wouldn't be right. Trying to explain that to hysterical people does not mean you are "de gubbermint"

Cluedo Monopoly

Donald Trump wrote: »

Someone already pointed out earlier in the thread that there is a system in place whereby parties can register their desire to meet etc. If there is a match then they will be put in contact to the extent requested.

No nuns involved

Do you acknowledge that this system does not exist today for mother and baby victims? Please stop propagating this until it is true.

Cluedo Monopoly

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Do you acknowledge that this system does not exist today for mother and baby victims? Please stop propagating this until it is true.

I know four people adopted in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s. All have traced their birth mothers and two birth fathers, with varying degrees of success. The two who met mothers only no longer have contact. The others, who traced both parents, one has limited contact and the other has become part of the family. (Her parents married and had two more children together)
So, yes. It IS possible to trace family.

What has been sealed is the testimony given to the commission.

Donald Trump

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Do you acknowledge that this system does not exist today for mother and baby victims? Please stop propagating this until it is true.

I don't know. I said before that it should exist and another poster who had been adopted responded and told me that it does exist already. That is my only source for it. If they tell me it does exist and you tell me it doesn't then there are two possibilities
1) They are wrong
2) It exists but you yourself aren't aware of it.



So I don't know. Maybe you will tell me it exists but isn't complete or something. I am only going on the word of the person who said they themselves were adopted and who struggled to track down their own mother.

Hermy wrote: »

Donald Trump wrote: »

There should be a system (if not there already) whereby either party can indicate their desire to meet the other party. Then if there is a match, both could be given the other's details. I don't think anyone could argue about that.

That system already exists. see link

Cluedo Monopoly

Donald Trump wrote: »

I don't know. I said before that it should exist and another poster who had been adopted responded and told me that it does exist already. That is my only source for it. If they tell me it does exist and you tell me it doesn't then there are two possibilities
1) They are wrong
2) It exists but you yourself aren't aware of it.



So I don't know. Maybe you will tell me it exists but isn't complete or something. I am only going on the word of the person who said they themselves were adopted and who struggled to track down their own mother.

And again. We are talking about Mother and Baby homes. Forced illegal adoptions often with falsified records.
The system does not exist for mother and baby home victims. You are just floundering.

A system that would help people like this man and his mother...

https://extra.ie/2018/06/03/news/real-life/kevin-battle-adopted-from-ireland

Mr Battle was born in July 1958 the Sean Ross Abbey mother and baby home in Roscrea, Co Tipperary, before being adopted by an American couple who had to donate $1,000 to the order.

Despite making efforts to contact authorities at the home over the decades, he had little success. ‘They told me over and over again that they didn’t know who my mother was or where she was from,’ he said.

Eventually, Mr Battle made contact with his family who were living in Wales and discovered that he had two brothers and three sisters. He learned that his mother was told he had died in New York when she tried to find him.

The nuns spent years lying to him about hit mother and even told him she was dead. She was looking for him too.

Cluedo Monopoly

katiek102010 wrote: »

That is for more recent legal adoptions. As has previously been stated over and over, even the case mentioned a few comments back stated, this has been prevented in many of the cases of the mother and baby homes.

Information requests for records have been ignored, doors slammed in faces. People being lied to and told child or mother is deceased.

That is what the argument is over. They want a system in place whereby they can record if contact is wished and if both parties agree it is facilitated.

The victims just want the truth

They just refuse to listen.

Even O'Gorman acknowledges something needs to be done

Mr O’Gorman insisted that he remains ‘absolutely committed to addressing the wider matters of providing a new architecture surrounding access to birth information and tracing; this will be advanced soon.’

Donald Trump

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

And again. We are talking about Mother and Baby homes. Forced illegal adoptions often with falsified records. The system does not exist for mother and baby home victims. You are just floundering.

What are you shiteing on about floundering. Take it up with the other poster who said the system does exist. I'll take their word over yours seeing as how they said they were adopted and went through the processes. As I said, if you think it does not exist, then it is likely your ignorance of it.





You have no knowledge of how they do the matching.



You also appear to have thought nothing through. The mother will presumably know where and when she gave birth giving that she was, ya know, probably there at the time. The baby won't remember being born, even though it was also likely present, so it will have to go on whatever records it has regarding it's birth.


Both mother and child can put their respective details into the system and if there is a match (or even a potential match) then the professionals can sort it out. If you are going to shite on about records being falsified then making records public does nothing to fix this. It only satisfies the prurient desires of the misery ghouls for gossip.





If Paddy Murphy was one of these forced adoptions with these somehow falsified records then what is he to do? His paperwork says he was born on 1st Jan 1975 in Cork and his mother was someone called Patricia Murphy. But say those details are false. The only advantage he can get is from trawling through all the womens' private testimony to find out which ones gave birth around that time and try to track them down even if they don't want to be tracked down. He's not going to gain anything that he wouldn't get from a consenting matching system. Other than access to other womens private details without their consent.

Cluedo Monopoly

Donald Trump wrote: »

What are you shiteing on about floundering. Take it up with the other poster who said the system does exist. I'll take their word over yours seeing as how they said they were adopted and went through the processes. As I said, if you think it does not exist, then it is likely your ignorance of it.

You have no knowledge of how they do the matching.

You also appear to have thought nothing through. The mother will presumably know where and when she gave birth giving that she was, ya know, probably there at the time. The baby won't remember being born, even though it was also likely present, so it will have to go on whatever records it has regarding it's birth.


Both mother and child can put their respective details into the system and if there is a match (or even a potential match) then the professionals can sort it out. If you are going to shite on about records being falsified then making records public does nothing to fix this. It only satisfies the prurient desires of the misery ghouls for gossip.

If Paddy Murphy was one of these forced adoptions with these somehow falsified records then what is he to do? His paperwork says he was born on 1st Jan 1975 in Cork and his mother was someone called Patricia Murphy. But say those details are false. The only advantage he can get is from trawling through all the womens' private testimony to find out which ones gave birth around that time and try to track them down even if they don't want to be tracked down. He's not going to gain anything that he wouldn't get from a consenting matching system. Other than access to other womens private details without their consent.

Good man. Well done. I will leave it here.

http://adoption.ie/commission-archive/

Donald Trump

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Good man. Well done. I will leave it here.

http://adoption.ie/commission-archive/

Looks like you didn't do a good job of reading your own link.

Cluedo Monopoly

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Good man. Well done. I will leave it here.

http://adoption.ie/commission-archive/

At last! Acknowledgment that it’s the commission archive that is to be locked away! Thanks for clarifying what I’ve been trying to get you to understand for days. Over and out!

WhenPigsCry

Deleted User wrote: »

At last! Acknowledgment that it’s the commission archive that is to be locked away! Thanks for clarifying what I’ve been trying to get you to understand for days. Over and out!

You said:

Deleted User wrote: »

What has been sealed is the testimony given to the commission.

The link says
"All of the administrative files, which show how the abusive system of forced family separation was run, will also be withheld."

Cluedo Monopoly

Deleted User wrote: »

At last! Acknowledgment that it’s the commission archive that is to be locked away! Thanks for clarifying what I’ve been trying to get you to understand for days. Over and out!

Very strange postings from some of you.

This means that no-one will be able to access their personal records from the Minister’s archive, or information in his archive about their disappeared relatives or babies who are buried in unmarked graves.

All of the administrative files, which show how the abusive system of forced family separation was run, will also be withheld.

It will not be possible to question the conclusions of the Commission of Investigation, to do further research, or to hold wrongdoers to account.

We need to prevent this further human rights abuse. The secrecy has to end.

Under the Bill, some of the records gathered by the Commission (a ‘database and related records’ of women and children detained in 11 Mother and Baby Homes) will be given to TUSLA. The rest of the archive will go to the Minister for ‘sealing’. How is it acceptable to release some but not all of the records?

TUSLA is not the appropriate recipient for any part of the Commission’s archive. It operates legally troubling and discriminatory practices, including defining adopted people’s birth name as third party data and undertaking ‘risk assessments’ of all adopted people who request their records.

The Government is progressing this Bill at lightning speed.

Yet the relatives of disappeared women and children throughout the country, and living survivors and adopted people, have been denied any access to the Commission of Investigation’s archive.

But at least it happened in Russia too Mary

Mrsmum

I feel like I missed the beginning of this story. Was it that the information, which is now being sealed, was discovered through an inquiry where the informants were guaranteed privacy/secrecy ?? Is it those people that are now being protected as promised ? I'm looking for information here not making judgements. Anyone fill me in please.

vojiwox

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

And again. We are talking about Mother and Baby homes. Forced illegal adoptions often with falsified records.
The system does not exist for mother and baby home victims. You are just floundering.

A system that would help people like this man and his mother...

https://extra.ie/2018/06/03/news/real-life/kevin-battle-adopted-from-ireland



The nuns spent years lying to him about hit mother and even told him she was dead. She was looking for him too.

And in relation to the documents being sealed, is there information in them that would allow the above to happen? Did the commission manage to get that information from the nuns?

Cluedo Monopoly

vojiwox wrote: »

And in relation to the documents being sealed, is there information in them that would allow the above to happen? Did the commission manage to get that information from the nuns?

I would expect they got more than the victims. The commission report will reveal what data they could extract from the religious orders.

vojiwox

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

I would expect they got more than the victims. The commission report will reveal what data they could extract from the religious orders.

So no one is aware of what is even in it yet?

It's been a strange one to try to follow on my usual radio programs! Really struggling with what exactly is going on.

Could a website be just put up by someone and we could have all the testimonies uploaded by the people who talked to the commission if those people want them public?