Pope Francis says same sex civil unions are fine.

Bobtheman

Let's face facts most people have ignored social teaching from the church for last 30 years .In the west
Where this might have influence is places in the third world where the church is the only real social service.
Unfortunately though it can be too easy to blame homophobia on the church everywhere . Islam does a pretty good job of it on its own

Bobtheman

I think you have to recognize that there are gay practicing catholics. This might comfort them

excludedbin

If the RCC is to survive then it must adapt. The world won't stop for religious dogma, not any more. I certainly hope this is the start of its leaders realising that.

Donald Trump wrote: »

I am curious to know what would be your cutoff where books and ideas become irrelevant for today



1950's
1900's
1800's
1700's



etc. You realise that people weren't less intelligent back then. They might not have had google or the same opportunity for mass education but they were not Neanderthals.

They did, however, lack the knowledge of the world and the universe that we now possess. Religions of antiquity were an attempt to understand a universe people simply lacked the technology and (cumulative) knowledge to understand.

You would not, for example, put much faith in pre-Socrotean ideas regarding cosmology or cosmogony. We know better now. That is the cutoff; where modern evidence contradicts what was once accepted as fact.

We've also had two thousand years of philosophical and ethical thought since the Bible was put to writing. Ethics are a human construction and so can and should be questioned and refined. Especially when we encounter situations that would never have been possible in antiquity - look at the modern body of bioethics for an example of approaches to problems raised by modern biosciences.

Quite simply, the world isn't static. What held true once may be disproven in not even a hundred years. We can only work from our best understanding of the world at the time but should still change and update that as new information comes to light.

Galwayguy35

excludedbin wrote: »

If the RCC is to survive then it must adapt. The world won't stop for religious dogma, not any more. I certainly hope this is the start of its leaders realising that.


They did, however, lack the knowledge of the world and the universe that we now possess. Religions of antiquity were an attempt to understand a universe people simply lacked the technology and (cumulative) knowledge to understand.

You would not, for example, put much faith in pre-Socrotean ideas regarding cosmology or cosmogony. We know better now. That is the cutoff; where modern evidence contradicts what was once accepted as fact.

We've also had two thousand years of philosophical and ethical thought since the Bible was put to writing. Ethics are a human construction and so can and should be questioned and refined. Especially when we encounter situations that would never have been possible in antiquity - look at the modern body of bioethics for an example of approaches to problems raised by modern biosciences.

Quite simply, the world isn't static. What held true once may be disproven in not even a hundred years. We can only work from our best understanding of the world at the time but should still change and update that as new information comes to light.

Survive you say?

There's about a billion Catholics in the world and around the same nu,ber of muslims, don't think either of them are going the way of the dodo anytime soon.

ohnonotgmail

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Survive you say?

There's about a billion Catholics in the world and around the same nu,ber of muslims, don't think either of them are going the way of the dodo anytime soon.

According to the last census 78% of the irish population is catholic. Except we all know that isn't really true. Even that is down 6% from the census 5 years previous. the only places the catholic church is strong is africa and south america. everywhere else it is in decline.

Hotblack Desiato

excludedbin wrote: »

If the RCC is to survive then it must adapt. The world won't stop for religious dogma, not any more. I certainly hope this is the start of its leaders realising that.

Give 'em another century or so, they might even stop treating women as second class citizens!

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Survive you say?

There's about a billion Catholics in the world and around the same nu,ber of muslims, don't think either of them are going the way of the dodo anytime soon.

how are the seminaries in Ireland doing?

One eyed Jack

excludedbin wrote: »

If the RCC is to survive then it must adapt. The world won't stop for religious dogma, not any more. I certainly hope this is the start of its leaders realising that.

What do you mean “if the RCC is to survive”? It’s not going anywhere any time soon, and this isn’t the start of anything only some quarters of the media trying to portray Pope Francis as the new and reconciliatory leader of the RCC. Beats the hell out of me why they imagine he represents anything different from that which has gone before, but ok.

excludedbin wrote: »

They did, however, lack the knowledge of the world and the universe that we now possess. Religions of antiquity were an attempt to understand a universe people simply lacked the technology and (cumulative) knowledge to understand.

You would not, for example, put much faith in pre-Socrotean ideas regarding cosmology or cosmogony. We know better now. That is the cutoff; where modern evidence contradicts what was once accepted as fact.

We've also had two thousand years of philosophical and ethical thought since the Bible was put to writing. Ethics are a human construction and so can and should be questioned and refined. Especially when we encounter situations that would never have been possible in antiquity - look at the modern body of bioethics for an example of approaches to problems raised by modern biosciences.

Quite simply, the world isn't static. What held true once may be disproven in not even a hundred years. We can only work from our best understanding of the world at the time but should still change and update that as new information comes to light.

Yeah I kinda get where you’re coming from, but in reality human civilisation still prefers a compelling narrative to maintain order in society. People don’t care for facts as much as they might like to think they do - they’re prejudiced towards narratives they find convincing and compelling, so for all of this idea that “we know better” now - in this country alone we’ve still ended up with the Unholy Trinity of the three stooges doing a rotating Taoisigh on it, while yet another report of the mistreatment of women, by women, is sealed from the public for another 30 years. This idea of patting ourselves on the back and saying “Oh look how far we’ve come”? Stop that for Jesus sake, it’s embarrassing.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

According to the last census 78% of the irish population is catholic. Except we all know that isn't really true. Even that is down 6% from the census 5 years previous. the only places the catholic church is strong is africa and south america. everywhere else it is in decline.

We don’t know it isn’t true, unless you have evidence that the census enumerators are mistaken? The figure on its own doesn’t tell us much, because the census doesn’t question the veracity of the respondents faith according to a defined criteria - it relies on the person relating their own religious identity and what being Catholic is to them. Might not be your idea, might not be my idea, but the one thing neither of us could say is that it’s not really true that 78% of the Irish population are Catholic. That’s a narrative that’s based on your own subjective perspective. I wouldn’t rely too much on statistics when it comes to quantifying or qualifying peoples beliefs or lack thereof. Essentially while yes, it’s true that the numbers of people who are Catholic are in decline, the influence of the Catholic Church itself is still undeniably strong in Western society. That’s precisely why the media still gets all excited when Pope Francis says the same thing as the Church has been saying for centuries now.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Give 'em another century or so, they might even stop treating women as second class citizens!

Unless they’re lesbian, women aren’t treated as second class citizens by the RCC? They’ve had their own “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy in place for quite a while now, also applies to gay men. I could give them a thousand years and I can’t see them changing their position in relation to homosexuality.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

how are the seminaries in Ireland doing?

They’re not doing great to be fair. Ever since there isn’t the same social status attached to the priesthood which kinda put the clergy and the sisterhood above criticism and gave them essentially free reign to abuse people in their “care”, which the State was aware of, and rewarded them handsomely all the same, with all that gone it doesn’t attract the little hitler types like it used to. It’s still a great place to hang out if you’re a gay man though.

Galwayguy35

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

According to the last census 78% of the irish population is catholic. Except we all know that isn't really true. Even that is down 6% from the census 5 years previous. the only places the catholic church is strong is africa and south america. everywhere else it is in decline.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Give 'em another century or so, they might even stop treating women as second class citizens!




how are the seminaries in Ireland doing?

Except I wasn't talking about just Ireland now was I or do you both think we have a billion people here.

The poster I quoted seems to think the RC religion was on the way out but it isn't going by those numbers.

Both of you seem a bit obsessed about a religion ye aren't a member of.

breezy1985

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Except I wasn't talking about just Ireland now was I or do you both think we have a billion people here.

The poster I quoted seems to think the RC religion was on the way out but it isn't going by those numbers.

Both of you seem a bit obsessed about a religion ye aren't a member of.

Problem is it doesn't matter in Ireland if you are a member or not as the church is not something you can ignore due to the history of abuse and intimidation and also the amount of church influence wrapped up in right wing political pressure groups and good catholic Ireland's position as the magic before time fairy land of Ireland similar to magic before time pre EU days in British politics

Galwayguy35

breezy1985 wrote: »

Problem is it doesn't matter in Ireland if you are a member or not as the church is not something you can ignore due to the history of abuse and intimidation and also the amount of church influence wrapped up in right wing political pressure groups and good catholic Ireland's position as the magic before time fairy land of Ireland similar to magic before time pre EU days in British politics

Who said I was ignoring anything, you are another one jumping all over something I never mentioned at all.

All I've been talking about is the numbers of Catholics in the world which was a response to someone saying its going to die out.

As for the last line there in your post it makes no sense at all.

breezy1985

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Who said I was ignoring anything, you are another one jumping all over something I never mentioned at all.

All I've been talking about is the numbers of Catholics in the world which was a response to someone saying its going to die out.

As for the last line there in your post it makes no sense at all.

Im being told I make no sense by a man you believes in the RC religion

suicide_circus

When can expect to see similar pronouncements in the upper echelons of the Islamic world?

Donald Trump

breezy1985 wrote: »

Im being told I make no sense by a man you believes in the RC religion

Why do you give a shite then what the Pope says?


If the heads of some radical forms of Islam came out and said that from now on nobody should stone gay people to death I'd think it was a positive! It might not be where I think they should be but it might be an incremental step in the right direction for the actual followers.

breezy1985

Donald Trump wrote: »

Why do you give a shite then what the Pope says?


If the heads of some radical forms of Islam came out and said that from now on nobody should stone gay people to death I'd think it was a positive! It might not be where I think they should be but it might be an incremental step in the right direction for the actual followers.

What the pope says still matters here because of groups like the Iona institute and historically church teaching has done awful damage here.


I have no time for islam but this is an Irish forum and I have never seen a major impact on my life or Ireland due to islam and they have nothing to do with the pope so I didnt mention them. I wish all the religions would F off as they all seem to have groups that they put down and abuse

J.O. Farmer

breezy1985 wrote: »

What the pope says still matters here because of groups like the Iona institute and historically church teaching has done awful damage here.


I have no time for islam but this is an Irish forum and I have never seen a major impact on my life or Ireland due to islam and they have nothing to do with the pope so I didnt mention them. I wish all the religions would F off as they all seem to have groups that they put down and abuse

If there were no religions there'd just be different groups of atheists or agnostics with groups they put down. It wouldn't be utopia without them.

lawrencesummers

The pink pound is worth the same as any other pound in their basket.

IAMAMORON

I am not really religious at all. I think anything that the Pope comes out and states in a progressive way concerning homosexual unions has to be taking on its' merits. It is not ideal but it is certainly progress.

I remember attending a wedding a few years back and I got there an hour or so too early. I was having a scope around inside the church and picked up a copy of the Catholic News, I had a muse through it out of interest. There was a photo of Pope Francis attending a welfare centre for street prostitutes in Buenes Aires. He was on his knees physically washing the feet of the women who were street working and were attending the centre. It really struck me when I saw the picture of the depth of his compassion, insofar that he was happy to be cleaning the feet of these women, that image has never left me.

I also remember when he came to Ireland a few years ago, he only really seemed to relax when he arrived at the Capuchin Day Centre for Homeless People. He had seemed really uptight dealing with all the politicians and formalities. As soon as he arrived at Bow street you could see he felt relieved and happy, he was at his real work it appeared. He was beaming and it indicated to me a lot of what he is all about. He felt contentment when he was amongst others who are helping others.

I think the dude is a fair enough man and I welcome his progressive attitude.

lawrencesummers

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I am not really religious at all. I think anything that the Pope comes out and states in a progressive way concerning homosexual unions has to be taking on its' merits. It is not ideal but it is certainly progress.

I remember attending a wedding a few years back and I got there an hour or so too early. I was having a scope around inside the church and picked up a copy of the Catholic News, I had a muse through it out of interest. There was a photo of Pope Francis attending a welfare centre for street prostitutes in Buenes Aires. He was on his knees physically washing the feet of the women who were street working and were attending the centre. It really struck me when I saw the picture of the depth of his compassion, insofar that he was happy to be cleaning the feet of these women, that image has never left me.

I also remember when he came to Ireland a few years ago, he only really seemed to relax when he arrived at the Capuchin Day Centre for Homeless People. He had seemed really uptight dealing with all the politicians and formalities. As soon as he arrived at Bow street you could see he felt relieved and happy, he was at his real work it appeared. He was beaming and it indicated to me a lot of what he is all about. He felt contentment when he was amongst others who are helping others.

I think the dude is a fair enough man and I welcome his progressive attitude.

Yea, fair play to him for progressing the church right into the 18th Century.

Let me know when they decide to change their tune about women, and that might bring them up to the 19th, maybe then when they get up to date on healthcare the 20th beckons.


FFS the church is progressive.
I’ve heard it all now.

ohnonotgmail

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Except I wasn't talking about just Ireland now was I or do you both think we have a billion people here.

The poster I quoted seems to think the RC religion was on the way out but it isn't going by those numbers.

Both of you seem a bit obsessed about a religion ye aren't a member of.

The RCC count me as a member I'm sure what with the whole baptism and confirmation thing. Anyway, you're statement is too broad. They are on the way out everywhere apart from africa and south america

IAMAMORON

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Yea, fair play to him for progressing the church right into the 18th Century.

Let me know when they decide to change their tune about women, and that might bring them up to the 19th, maybe then when they get up to date on healthcare the 20th beckons.


FFS the church is progressive.
I’ve heard it all now.

I don't care about any churches or any religion, neither should you.

I am only pointing out that as a person I think he is built on compassion, that means something in my book.

One eyed Jack

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

The RCC count me as a member I'm sure what with the whole baptism and confirmation thing. Anyway, you're statement is too broad. They are on the way out everywhere apart from africa and south america

As if that’s not too broad a statement?

The RCC is already the largest non-government provider of education and healthcare in the world, and in just North America alone where Catholics make up only 20% of the population, they’re still the largest population of Catholics in any country apart from as you suggest already - Brazil in South America with a Catholic population of 140m.

Given the RCC in the US has just received $1Bn in Federal aid (some estimates have put the figure closer to $3.5Bn), it’s obvious that the RCC have been “on their way out” since their inception, while they never actually go anywhere and are still able to influence global politics and policies, and still receive State or Government funding that makes the whole “no bums on seats” argument redundant as to how they are funded and manage to sustain themselves -


Yes, Catholic Church got billions in federal coronavirus aid — and thank goodness

Galwayguy35

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

The RCC count me as a member I'm sure what with the whole baptism and confirmation thing. Anyway, you're statement is too broad. They are on the way out everywhere apart from africa and south america

Its in decline in Western European Countries but many EE are still very Catholic.

Both of us will be long dead and it will still be the largest religion in the world with 1.3 billion members.

I agree that it handled the abuse scandal very badly but as popes go I think Frank is the most genuine ones that has been in the job but there is only so much he can do.

The real power lies with the cardinals.

keano_afc

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

What do they not believe in? That the Roman Catholic Church exists? That the pope exists? :rolleyes:

Atheists (in general) along with a lot of other people think that institutionalised homophobia is one of the many damaging and wrong practices of that church, and are perfectly entitled to speak out against these practices.

As I said, extremely entertaining.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Big of the pope

Hard to imagine that people care what he has to say in this day and age

The church changes message more than I change socks

lawrencesummers

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Big of the pope

Hard to imagine that people care what he has to say in this day and age

The church changes message more than I change socks

The church adapts it’s stance based on the views of the people it’s trying to keep financially supporting itself from, it will turn on any viewpoint but it just takes a long long time to do so.

For an organisation that puts the bible at the heart of everything it does, it’s happy to ignore or change the rules when the finances are feeling the pinch.

Eventually it will see women as equal to men, but probably not until 100’or so years after the rest of the developed world has.

Hotblack Desiato

keano_afc wrote: »

As I said, extremely entertaining.

Some people appear to be very easily amused.

Hotblack Desiato

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Unless they’re lesbian, women aren’t treated as second class citizens by the RCC?

How remiss of me not to noice all the female RC priests, bishops and cardinals, eh?

I could give them a thousand years and I can’t see them changing their position in relation to homosexuality.

Their funeral.

It’s still a great place to hang out if you’re a gay man though.

I wouldn't imagine they're a great place for anyone to hang out given that they're almost empty.

Hotblack Desiato

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Both of you seem a bit obsessed about a religion ye aren't a member of.

It still has a massive amount of control over our education system despite not contributing a cent towards funding it. As a parent of school-age children that is a big concern for me.

It was also able last week to get the government to help it cover up its crimes for another 30 years.

One eyed Jack

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

How remiss of me not to noice all the female RC priests, bishops and cardinals, eh?

Nah I don’t think remiss, I just think different expectations of what either of us considers to be men and women regarded as equal within the Church. Men and women simply fulfil different roles within the Church is all. I think you’d be remiss if you didn’t notice that one of the main differences between the Catholic and Protestant Churches is how the Catholic Church regards Mary as the Queen of Heaven and Earth, and how motherhood is kind of a big deal within the Catholic Church.

Granted there are feminists within the Catholic Church too who maintain a very different perspective and approach to equal worth and dignity of the sexes and the position of women within the Catholic Church, but that’s what it does come down to. They’d agree with you that women are regarded as second class citizens within the Church. I wouldn’t, nor would the movement within the Church that would be known as new feminism.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Their funeral.

They’ve held the same position for the last 400 years, and that on it’s own clearly hadn’t had any diminishing effect on their numbers, so the idea that the Catholic Church will die on that hill alone just doesn’t stand up. People would need to be one-dimensional for that to happen. It’s clear from evidence we’re aware of at least that people aren’t so one-dimensional, there are plenty of people who consider themselves Catholic and homosexual and are able to successfully integrate the two identities that appear at first glance to be in conflict. As long as there are people who are prepared to support the Catholic Church, it’s going nowhere. Obviously there are issues within the Church, but walking away from it won’t do anything to actually tackle those issues, and I’m not sure people would be any happier if they walked away when they know they could have done something. Some people are happy to do that, most people aren’t.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I wouldn't imagine they're a great place for anyone to hang out given that they're almost empty.

Tongue in cheek humour

lawrencesummers

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Nah I don’t think remiss, I just think different expectations of what either of us considers to be men and women regarded as equal within the Church. Men and women simply fulfil different roles within the Church is all. I think you’d be remiss if you didn’t notice that one of the main differences between the Catholic and Protestant Churches is how the Catholic Church regards Mary as the Queen of Heaven and Earth, and how motherhood is kind of a big deal within the Catholic Church.

Granted there are feminists within the Catholic Church too who maintain a very different perspective and approach to equal worth and dignity of the sexes and the position of women within the Catholic Church, but that’s what it does come down to. They’d agree with you that women are regarded as second class citizens within the Church. I wouldn’t, nor would the movement within the Church that would be known as new feminism.





They’ve held the same position for the last 400 years, and that on it’s own clearly hadn’t had any diminishing effect on their numbers, so the idea that the Catholic Church will die on that hill alone just doesn’t stand up. People would need to be one-dimensional for that to happen. It’s clear from evidence we’re aware of at least that people aren’t so one-dimensional, there are plenty of people who consider themselves Catholic and homosexual and are able to successfully integrate the two identities that appear at first glance to be in conflict. As long as there are people who are prepared to support the Catholic Church, it’s going nowhere. Obviously there are issues within the Church, but walking away from it won’t do anything to actually tackle those issues, and I’m not sure people would be any happier if they walked away when they know they could have done something. Some people are happy to do that, most people aren’t.





Tongue in cheek humour

Men and women fulfilling different roles and not being allowed to fulfill either is the textbook definition of inequality. Just because it happens in the name of some imaginary sky person doesn’t make it right, and make no mistake the treatment of women is about money pure and simple.