What dipstick decided to SETI ??

antiskeptic

The search for extra terrestrial intelligence involves beaming information into space in the hope that there is a sufficiently advanced intelligence out there to pick it up. The allied hope must be that said life will respond.

Such intelligence would have to be as at least as advanced as we are - it is only comparatively recently that we have been in a position to beam the fact and location of our existence into space.

The chance of an intelligence only being as advanced as we are must be pretty slim. They are more likely than not going be more advanced than us (in the event ETI exists).

Now, we have a pretty good indication of what a species who superior to other species or even others of their own species tend to do. Look at all of history.

Yet we actively go looking for what would, in all likelyhood, be a superior species. The blind assumption ( one which appears to be contra-indicated, given said history) is that ETI would be benevolent.

The one thing that protects us is vast space, just like great distance protects you as a snooker player.

Yet we're putting our name up in lights .. which strikes me as stupidity of the highest order.

Potential-Monke

You can relax, most sci-fi alien films based in and around now were completely off the ball with how advanced we would be at this stage. We won't encounter aliens for another few hundred years at least imo.

And if they land tomorrow, I welcome our new alien overlords.

Peregrinus

If the term "dipstick" must be used, we should perhaps reserve it for those who so comprehensively misunderstand the SETI project.

The focus of the project is the reverse of what you suggest; not to radiate signals outwards into space but to monitor and analyse signals from space, to search for patterns that suggests design, structure, communication, etc rather than simply naturally occurring electromagnetic and other radiation. The aim is not to be detected by our own broadcasts, but rather to detect others through their broadcasts.

As for the dangers attendant upon being detected by our own broadcasts, that ship has pretty comprehensively sailed. Ship-to-shore and ship-to-ship radio telegraphy was developed in the 1890s century, and the first signals sent by this method are still travelling outwards through space, having now (obviously) reached a distance of about 125 light years from Earth. They were weak signals with limited structure and would be extremely difficult to detect, but the volume and structuring of signals being broadcast into space increased hugely with the advent of general radio broadcasting in the 1920s, and then television in the 1950s. For decades now we have been pumping prodigious quantities of structured electromagnetic signals travelling at the speed of light in - literally - all directions from Earth. These broadcasts are not made with the object of being detected, but they are eminently detectable all the same.

What is called "Active SETI" is the broadcasting of signals with the specific hope of their being detected and successfully analysed. It does happen, but it's a tiny, tiny part of the overal SETI project. The aim is to broadcast signals which are designed to be capable of being analysed from first principles in the hope we can thereby communicate information to other cultures, without knowing what we have in common with them. For the reason just given this doesn't materially increase the chances of our presence being detected, and indeed the most likely cultures to receive and analyse these signals are cultures which have already detected our presence from general broadcasting, and are therefore paying attention to this particular corner of space.

Wanderer78

We can't travel at the speed of light, but signals of life can, yup, seems like a good idea to me!

Del2005

antiskeptic wrote: »

The search for extra terrestrial intelligence involves beaming information into space in the hope that there is a sufficiently advanced intelligence out there to pick it up. The allied hope must be that said life will respond.

Such intelligence would have to be as at least as advanced as we are - it is only comparatively recently that we have been in a position to beam the fact and location of our existence into space.

The chance of an intelligence only being as advanced as we are must be pretty slim. They are more likely than not going be more advanced than us (in the event ETI exists).

Now, we have a pretty good indication of what a species who superior to other species or even others of their own species tend to do. Look at all of history.

Yet we actively go looking for what would, in all likelyhood, be a superior species. The blind assumption ( one which appears to be contra-indicated, given said history) is that ETI would be benevolent.

The one thing that protects us is vast space, just like great distance protects you as a snooker player.

Yet we're putting our name up in lights .. which strikes me as stupidity of the highest order.

We put our address on the Pioneer space craft!

Wanderer78

Del2005 wrote: »

We put our address on the Pioneer space craft!

Eircode?

Smiles35

Peregrinus wrote: »

As for the dangers attendant upon being detected by our own broadcasts, that ship has pretty comprehensively sailed. Ship-to-shore and ship-to-ship radio telegraphy was developed in the 1890s century, and the first signals sent by this method are still travelling outwards through space, having now (obviously) reached a distance of about 125 light years from Earth. They were weak signals with limited structure and would be extremely difficult to detect, but the volume and structuring of signals being broadcast into space increased hugely with the advent of general radio broadcasting in the 1920s, and then television in the 1950s. For decades now we have been pumping prodigious quantities of structured electromagnetic signals travelling at the speed of light in - literally - all directions from Earth. These broadcasts are not made with the object of being detected, but they are eminently detectable all the same.

The signals actually degrade. That's something I only found out recently. If you talk to the people involved they will point to our most powerfull signal senders, millitary radar and the lesser commercial aviation radar.

Peregrinus

Yes, the signals do degrade. Also, they get swamped by background radiation, But even a quite degraded signal, only partly received,may be identified as artificial, not natural, and that's all that is necessary for an alien civilisation to conclude that the place they emanate from must contain a life-form sufficiently intelligent to generate electromagnetic signals. And we're sending out signals of that kind all the time - as in, 24/7. It may well be correct that radar signals are more likely to be detected than radio or television broadcasts, but so what? Either way, the aliens detecting the signals don't need to understand their purpose or function in order to know of our existence.

SouthWesterly

Potential-Monke wrote: »

You can relax, most sci-fi alien films based in and around now were completely off the ball with how advanced we would be at this stage. We won't encounter aliens for another few hundred years at least imo.

And if they land tomorrow, I welcome our new alien overlords.

At least we know Tom Jones singing can kill them

Smiles35

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yes, the signals do degrade. Also, they get swamped by background radiation, But even a quite degraded signal, only partly received,may be identified as artificial, not natural, and that's all that is necessary for an alien civilisation to conclude that the place they emanate from must contain a life-form sufficiently intelligent to generate electromagnetic signals. And we're sending out signals of that kind all the time - as in, 24/7. It may well be correct that radar signals are more likely to be detected than radio or television broadcasts, but so what? Either way, the aliens detecting the signals don't need to understand their purpose or function in order to know of our existence.

There was talk of a new signal detectector being built in Austrailia. I'd love some Irish govenment investment towards this. It's eminently interesting for resonably small outlay.

Pronto63

It’s really only frequencies at the higher end of the radio spectrum that leave our little planet.

HF, ham radio etc, bounces off Ionosphere.
VHF, from 30MHz, will penetrate into space. This is FH radio, TV etc so really only post WWII.

Peregrinus

Smiles35 wrote: »

There was talk of a new signal detectector being built in Austrailia. I'd love some Irish govenment investment towards this. It's eminently interesting for resonably small outlay.

Possibly this one? An incredibly cool project to build a widely-dispersed network of linked radiotelescopes in areas of virtual terrestrial radio silence - hence, the Australian outback, the Karoo desert. While it could be, and probably would be, used for SETI detection purposes, that's pretty far down on the list of projects and priorities.

antiskeptic

Peregrinus wrote: »

If the term "dipstick" must be used, we should perhaps reserve it for those who so comprehensively misunderstand the SETI project.

The focus of the project is the reverse of what you suggest; not to radiate signals outwards into space but to monitor and analyse signals from space, to search for patterns that suggests design, structure, communication, etc rather than simply naturally occurring electromagnetic and other radiation. The aim is not to be detected by our own broadcasts, but rather to detect others through their broadcasts.

As for the dangers attendant upon being detected by our own broadcasts, that ship has pretty comprehensively sailed. Ship-to-shore and ship-to-ship radio telegraphy was developed in the 1890s century, and the first signals sent by this method are still travelling outwards through space, having now (obviously) reached a distance of about 125 light years from Earth. They were weak signals with limited structure and would be extremely difficult to detect, but the volume and structuring of signals being broadcast into space increased hugely with the advent of general radio broadcasting in the 1920s, and then television in the 1950s. For decades now we have been pumping prodigious quantities of structured electromagnetic signals travelling at the speed of light in - literally - all directions from Earth. These broadcasts are not made with the object of being detected, but they are eminently detectable all the same.

What is called "Active SETI" is the broadcasting of signals with the specific hope of their being detected and successfully analysed. It does happen, but it's a tiny, tiny part of the overal SETI project. The aim is to broadcast signals which are designed to be capable of being analysed from first principles in the hope we can thereby communicate information to other cultures, without knowing what we have in common with them. For the reason just given this doesn't materially increase the chances of our presence being detected, and indeed the most likely cultures to receive and analyse these signals are cultures which have already detected our presence from general broadcasting, and are therefore paying attention to this particular corner of space.

I stand corrected. Failing a giant tinfoil hat in space, we are as the opening sequence in Contact shows - a veritable electromagnetic cacophony.

Nevertheless, designing signals to enhance our being detected does strike as a bit of a risky punt to be taking

Kylta

antiskeptic wrote: »

The search for extra terrestrial intelligence involves beaming information into space in the hope that there is a sufficiently advanced intelligence out there to pick it up. The allied hope must be that said life will respond.

Such intelligence would have to be as at least as advanced as we are - it is only comparatively recently that we have been in a position to beam the fact and location of our existence into space.

The chance of an intelligence only being as advanced as we are must be pretty slim. They are more likely than not going be more advanced than us (in the event ETI exists).

Now, we have a pretty good indication of what a species who superior to other species or even others of their own species tend to do. Look at all of history.

Yet we actively go looking for what would, in all likelyhood, be a superior species. The blind assumption ( one which appears to be contra-indicated, given said history) is that ETI would be benevolent.

The one thing that protects us is vast space, just like great distance protects you as a snooker player.

Yet we're putting our name up in lights .. which strikes me as stupidity of the highest order.

Was it the same guy who found the yeti

Peregrinus

antiskeptic wrote: »

I stand corrected. Failing a giant tinfoil hat in space, we are as the opening sequence in Contact shows - a veritable electromagnetic cacophony.

Nevertheless, designing signals to enhance our being detected does strike as a bit of a risky punt to be taking

They are not designed to enhance the chance of our being detected so much as to enhance the chance of our being understood. The idea is not so much to advertise our presence as to communicate.

Which, given your concerns, is probaby wise. In general the more and deeper communication you have with others, the less likely you are to eat them for lunch.

Smiles35

Peregrinus wrote: »

Possibly this one? An incredibly cool project to build a widely-dispersed network of linked radiotelescopes in areas of virtual terrestrial radio silence - hence, the Australian outback, the Karoo desert. While it could be, and probably would be, used for SETI detection purposes, that's pretty far down on the list of projects and priorities.

Thanks for finding that for me . Yes, I see from the website a list of varied use's stated, not SETI. It should be all SETI work!

Smiles35

Anyone intested is starting a 'lobby-group' to get some government involement? If so, give me a pm.

Wanderer78

Smiles35 wrote: »

Anyone intested is starting a 'lobby-group' to get some government involement? If so, give me a pm.

lobby group for what?

Smiles35

Wanderer78 wrote: »

lobby group for what?

To get our governments pockets involved in the search for extraterrestrial life.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya!

antiskeptic wrote: »

The chance of an intelligence only being as advanced as we are must be pretty slim. They are more likely than not going be more advanced than us (in the event ETI exists).

Why?

Yet we actively go looking for what would, in all likelyhood, be a superior species. The blind assumption ( one which appears to be contra-indicated, given said history) is that ETI would be benevolent.

Again why so?

You haven't presented any evidence to suggest why this scenario is highly likely?

Are you basing your theory solely off hollywood's depiction of extraterrestrials? It's not the most scientific approach.

And besides, even if we do manage to contact another alien civilization... if they were more advanced than us, couldn't that potentially also include transcending such things as war and violence and colonization etc?

I think most of us humans would consider eliminating those negative things from our societies as being a sign of our greater advancement as a species.

If they're more advanced than us, they may have already figured out how to create a completely peaceful society... they could potentially teach us the same lessons, and bring our civilization forward maybe centuries in one giant leap!

Wanderer78

Smiles35 wrote: »

To get our governments pockets involved in the search for extraterrestrial life.

sorry, im half asleep, duh! to be honest, i think id rather they borrowed to run the country

ThunderCat

Nevermind radio signals and the likes that degrade rapidly, it's our atmosphere that would give us away. The light from our atmosphere can be split using a spectrograph or spectroscope to show the chemical makeup of the atmosphere. We have that technology now, nevermind an advanced alien civilization. What our atmosphere tells the cosmos is that we have naturally occurring greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide and water vapor but we also have synthetic man made compounds such as CFC's and hydrofluorocarbons. That tells anyone looking all they need to know. There is nothing we can do about it and because that information is contained in the light reflecting off Earth, it can be seen from all directions from many many light years away, maybe much further depending on the level of alien technology involved.

And that is how we in turn will end up finding signs of intelligent life in the Cosmos. The James Webb Space Telescope, due to launch in the next few years, is designed to do exactly that and will be analyzing the atmospheres of exoplanets in our galaxy.

Mad_maxx

Potential-Monke wrote: »

You can relax, most sci-fi alien films based in and around now were completely off the ball with how advanced we would be at this stage. We won't encounter aliens for another few hundred years at least imo.

And if they land tomorrow, I welcome our new alien overlords.

more like a few thousand years , would take thousands of years to reach the nearest star ,we,ve made very little progress re_ exploring the universe

Smiles35

ThunderCat wrote: »

Nevermind radio signals and the likes that degrade rapidly, it's our atmosphere that would give us away. The light from our atmosphere can be split using a spectrograph or spectroscope to show the chemical makeup of the atmosphere. We have that technology now, nevermind an advanced alien civilization. What our atmosphere tells the cosmos is that we have naturally occurring greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide and water vapor but we also have synthetic man made compounds such as CFC's and hydrofluorocarbons. That tells anyone looking all they need to know. There is nothing we can do about it and because that information is contained in the light reflecting off Earth, it can be seen from all directions from many many light years away, maybe much further depending on the level of alien technology involved.

And that is how we in turn will end up finding signs of intelligent life in the Cosmos. The James Webb Space Telescope, due to launch in the next few years, is designed to do exactly that and will be analyzing the atmospheres of exoplanets in our galaxy.

Great news. In that case cancel the lobby group. Sure wouldnt it be going direct to the ESA and rockets after some finds.

Smiles35

Mad_maxx wrote: »

more like a few thousand years , would take thousands of years to reach the nearest star ,we,ve made very little progress re_ exploring the universe

Hundreds of years to reach the nearest star Max. Not thousands.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

if you think SETI was a dipstick , what about the A -Bomb ?

The A-bomb test and drops on Japan sent out shockwaves into the galaxy , that resulted in a flurry of various races arriving here wondering WTF we are up to .

Some knew about the spear throwing monkeys halfway out in the suburbs of the galaxy on an isolated multirace genetic test planet , they may even have put us here or designed us, and just kept tabs .

but the others didnt know until the bombs woke them up , and come 1947 they all arrived ....

( I'm kidding ... or am I ??? )

ThunderCat

Smiles35 wrote: »

Hundreds of years to reach the nearest star Max. Not thousands.

It would take us 80,000 years to reach our nearest star using current technology.

Kylta

Smiles35 wrote: »

There was talk of a new signal detectector being built in Austrailia. I'd love some Irish govenment investment towards this. It's eminently interesting for resonably small outlay.

We already have a detector in ireland, its called a bullsh!t detector. Nationally known has the government

Smiles35

ThunderCat wrote: »

It would take us 80,000 years to reach our nearest star using current technology.

It will take work. It's being worked on. It was found out light itself can have a pushing effect. The breakthrough starshot crowd reckon something small could be pushed to a decent speed. https://breakthroughinitiatives.org/initiative/3

Something large could be pushed aswell I suppose, it would just take more energy. It's the damage that will be taken by anything going at high speeds that is the unknown. And needs to be found out.

cj maxx

[/https://www.technologyreview.com/2018/06/22/142160/this-is-how-many-people-wed-have-to-send-to-proxima-centauri-to-make-sure-someone-actually/
I don’t know why it not coming up as a link

Mad_maxx

Smiles35 wrote: »

Hundreds of years to reach the nearest star Max. Not thousands.

im afraid you are quite wrong