Government urged to drop novels with 'racial slurs' from Junior Cert syllabus

dzsfah2xoynme9

Seems like the Department of education are thinking of changing the school curriculum because a few people got offended about some books. The books in question are To Kill A Mockingbird and Of Mice and Men. I've never read Of Mice and Men but I did read To Kill A Mockingbird. Powerful book and equally as powerful movie. Removing these books would be a mistake in my opinion. Acknowledging that events like what happened in To Kill A Mockingbird is important for us to move on as a society. We need to see and learn about the events of our past, not forget them and pretend that they didn't exist or never happened. This madness needs to stop..

https://www.thejournal.ie/government-racist-novels-junior-cert-black-lives-matter-5201948-Sep2020/

Scuid Mhór

Elisa Greasy Bank wrote: »

Seems like the Department of education are thinking of changing the school curriculum because a few people got offended about some books. The books in question are To Kill A Mockingbird and Of Mice and Men. I've never read Of Mice and Men but I did read To Kill A Mockingbird. Powerful book and equally as powerful movie. Removing these books would be a mistake in my opinion. Acknowledging that events like what happened in To Kill A Mockingbird is important for us to move on as a society. We need to see and learn about the events of our past, not forget them and pretend that they didn't exist or never happened. This madness needs to stop..

https://www.thejournal.ie/government-racist-novels-junior-cert-black-lives-matter-5201948-Sep2020/

I've never read Of Mice and Men but To Kill A Mockingbird should absolutely be removed from the educational curriculum. I remember having to study it when I was doing my Junior Certificate. I read it cover to cover several times that year and sure, it captured a demented time and place in American history through the prism of children's innocence and offered the personification of the natural law in Atticus Finch and provided a moral lesson in justice and the law not necessarily always being synonymous with one another, but not once, on any page, did Ms Lee detail how one is supposed to kill a mockingbird. I always thought this was highly suspect and, if I may be so bold, false advertising.

osarusan

Scuid Mhór wrote: »

I've never read Of Mice and Men but To Kill A Mockingbird should absolutely be removed from the educational curriculum. I remember having to study it when I was doing my Junior Certificate. I read it cover to cover several times that year and sure, it captured a demented time and place in American history through the prism of children's innocence and offered the personification of the natural law in Atticus Finch and provided a moral lesson in justice and the law not necessarily always being synonymous with one another, but not once, on any page, did Ms Lee detail how one is supposed to kill a mockingbird. I always thought this was highly suspect and, if I may be so bold, false advertising.

The novel is called 'To Kill a Mockingbird', not 'How to Kill a Mockingbird", so I think any effort to sue for false advertising would fall short.

Midnight_EG

osarusan wrote: »

The novel is called 'To Kill a Mockingbird', not 'How to Kill a Mockingbird", so I think any effort to sue for false advertising would fall short.

You must be fun at parties

osarusan

Midnight_EG wrote: »

You must be fun at parties

"I wanted you to see what real courage is, instead of getting the idea that courage is a man with a gun in his hand. It's when you know you're licked before you begin but you begin anyway and you see it through no matter what. You rarely win, but sometimes you do. Mrs Dubose won, all ninety-eight pounds of her. According to her views, she died beholden to nothing and nobody. She was the bravest person I ever knew."

CageWager

JC students are 14/15 - these books are hardly going to introduce them to racism. I can understand how it might make a mixed race class feel to read certain words aloud so it has to be handled delicately but just banning the books outright is very heavy handed.

Maybe we could use these books to have a mature conversation about the mistakes of the past instead of engaging in this new radicalised style of BAN ANYTHING I DEEM OFFENSIVE including large scale revision of world history, literature etc.

TheBlackPill

As long as they are replaced with novels based on the Barbary pirates or with books about the role of Africans in chattel based slavery.

Wanderer78

Mocking bird certainly is a powerful book, but the whole curriculum needs a major overhaul, to drag it out of the 20th century!

TheBlackPill

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Mocking bird certainly is a powerful book, but the whole curriculum needs a major overhaul, to drag it out of the 20th century!

But please, not into the 21st century. The state exams are dummed down enough

Wanderer78

TheBlackPill wrote:

But please, not into the 21st century. The state exams are dummed down enough

We have to stop this madness of teaching kids, life's one big test, they've enough crap to be dealing with, let them enjoy childhood

TheBlackPill

Wanderer78 wrote: »

We have to stop this madness of teaching kids, life's one big test, they've enough crap to be dealing with, let them enjoy childhood

If you dont teach your children they will adopt any auld sh1t. All the useful idiots supporting BLM and calling for books to be removed from the curriculum because of the n word are ample demonstration of the end result of not teaching kids

Wanderer78

TheBlackPill wrote:

If you dont teach your children they will adopt any auld sh1t. All the useful idiots supporting BLM and calling for books to be removed from the curriculum because of the n word are ample demonstration of the end result of not teaching kids

I actually think movements such as blm should be a part of the curriculum, do kids truly connect with books such as mocking bird, and is the curriculum truly designed to suit us adults more so? Younger generations are different, they see the world differently, they want a different world than us adults

Cookie_Monster

I had to suffer through of mice and men for my LC. Glad it's being removed, its utter trash of a book.

TheBlackPill

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I actually think movements such as blm should be a part of the curriculum, do kids truly connect with books such as mocking bird, and is the curriculum truly designed to suit us adults more so? Younger generations are different, they see the world differently, they want a different world than us adults

Teaching kids that if you cry,screAm and destroy stuff you will get attention?. Teach kids about grievance culture and bs race studies.
Books like mockingbird are timeless and universal and express anger against genuine injustice, and you propose changing them for race huckster crap

Wanderer78

TheBlackPill wrote:

Teaching kids that if you cry,screAm and destroy stuff you will get attention?. Teach kids about grievance culture and bs race studies. Books like mockingbird are timeless and universal and express anger against genuine injustice, and you propose changing them for race huckster crap

Or maybe you could encourage discussion amongst the kids, of why such movements still occur today, why relatives of Martin Luther have had to take to the streets, once again, why people become so angry, resulting in such outcomes

TomTomTim

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Or maybe you could encourage discussion amongst the kids, of why such movements still occur today, why relatives of Martin Luther have had to take to the streets, once again, why people become so angry, resulting in such outcomes

I'm sure you'd change your tune if these kids started bringing up crime statistics in America.

El Tarangu

Wanderer78 wrote: »

We have to stop this madness of teaching kids, life's one big test, they've enough crap to be dealing with, let them enjoy childhood

Arra jaysus...

rom

I see that those Egyptian hieroglyphs depict slavery. Why don't they wipe out all of them because it causes offence to see such things glorified as works of art. I know it was different times but with the now woke BLM movement they should reconsider and take a chisel to it all.

TheValeyard

To Kill a Mockingbird was a great eye opener for my JC about racism and American segregation. Removing it is absolutely ridiculous as it shows students what life was like for black Americans.

If any novel helps people see the wrong of segregation, it's that book. Removing it is a terrible, backwards step.

TheBlackPill

We need to remove all reference to Irish mythology and Celtic history from the curriculum as they practiced chattel based slavery. Also need to remove all reference to the British in Ireland too because they were rascist against Irish, and we wouldn't want our little darlings upset by thing that happened in the past.

CrankyHaus

"The novels, which are both set in the American South"

Of Mice and Men, like most of Steinbeck's work, is set in California.

"and contain the use of the n-word"

Which is already endemic in the American media teenagers lap up outside of school.

"One person suggested the minister should add Why I Am No Longer Talking To White People About Race by Reni Eddo-Lodge and The Good Immigrant by Nikesh Shukla to the syllabus, as they felt this would help to diversify the English curriculum."

So remove classics and replace them with voguish woke screeds, on pain of being smeared as a racist if you do not comply.

ohnonotgmail

why are people getting upset about something that hasnt happened? Nothing has been banned. the department have not "given in" to anything. they said they would look at it. and they probably wont.

screamer

Forget mockingbird, Peig was an absolute lesson in the hardships of life and misery whilst eking out an existence on a god forsaken rock In the Atlantic Ocean. It was depression inducing knowing that it was a true account of a miserable existence. That should be removed if kids still have to endure it.

lawrencesummers

Why can we just maybe let people know that the book is a work of Fiction? A work based loosely on the authors experience but still fiction ?


Doesn’t that count for something anymore?

El Tarangu

I think people are getting a bit exercised about a storm in a teacup; an unspecified number of people (could have been as few as one or two) emailed the Dept of Education, and the Dept wrote back that they would look into it.

screamer wrote: »

Forget mockingbird, Peig was an absolute lesson in the hardships of life and misery whilst eking out an existence on a god forsaken rock In the Atlantic Ocean. It was depression inducing knowing that it was a true account of a miserable existence. That should be removed if kids still have to endure it.

I don't think that Peig has been on the curriculum for about 30 years.

ohnonotgmail

El Tarangu wrote: »

I think people are getting a bit exercised about a storm in a teacup; an unspecified number of people (could have been as few as one or two) emailed the Dept of Education, and the Dept wrote back that they would look into it.




I don't think that Peig has been on the curriculum for about 30 years.

you mean they got rid of it as soon as i was finished? bastards.

screamer

El Tarangu wrote: »

I think people are getting a bit exercised about a storm in a teacup; an unspecified number of people (could have been as few as one or two) emailed the Dept of Education, and the Dept wrote back that they would look into it.


I don't think that Peig has been on the curriculum for about 30 years.

Just had a look there 1999 it was removed so I had to endure it, but very seriously this book was absolute misery and a personal account of miserable existence in Ireland. Mockingbird is purely that mocked up fiction, were it real, then I’d think differently. I also had to read it for junior cert and just thought it was meh to be honest.

steddyeddy

osarusan wrote: »

The novel is called 'To Kill a Mockingbird', not 'How to Kill a Mockingbird", so I think any effort to sue for false advertising would fall short.

Dravokivich

CrankyHaus wrote: »

"The novels, which are both set in the American South"

Of Mice and Men, like most of Steinbeck's work, is set in California.

"and contain the use of the n-word"

Which is already endemic in the American media teenagers lap up outside of school.

"One person suggested the minister should add Why I Am No Longer Talking To White People About Race by Reni Eddo-Lodge and The Good Immigrant by Nikesh Shukla to the syllabus, as they felt this would help to diversify the English curriculum."

So remove classics and replace them with voguish woke screeds, on pain of being smeared as a racist if you do not comply.

How are they classics? They would have been modern literature at the time.

Why can't they be rolled out for modern literature that's relevant to now?

Wanderer78

TomTomTim wrote: »

I'm sure you'd change your tune if these kids started bringing up crime statistics in America.

how would irish students bring up american crime rates?

JoannaJag

Is the complaint because of the N word or because the book centers a white voice on the subject of white on black racism? Or both?
In some ways unless you are going to ban the books altogether and remove them from libraries and book shops it’s better that a teacher is available to give historical and racial context to the books and discuss these issues. On the other hand it’s been 50 years - maybe time for some new reading material.

osarusan

I wonder what their place is in the curriculum. I mean, why are they there ahead of other novels?

Is To Kill a Mockingbird there to use as a springboard about discussion of racial inequality and so on? It obviously could be used like that, but I don't know if it is used like that. If it is used like that, I can see merit to pairing it with (not replacing it with) a novel which explores the same theme, but by a black author.

Of Mice and Men has only a brief and tengential reference to racism, with the treatment of Crooks the stablehand (who is warned that if he doesn't do what he's told, it's easy to get him hanged). It's a novel about itinerant labour during the great depression. I personally love the book, but i wonder what it's for in the curriculum - is it used as a gateway to different themes and so on.

So I wonder whether the novels are used in these ways, or whether they are just used as examples of certain types of storytelling or for some other reasons, without delving into any wider/historical context.

ohnonotgmail

osarusan wrote: »

I wonder what their place is in the curriculum. I mean, why are they there ahead of other novels?

Is To Kill a Mockingbird there to use as a springboard about discussion of racial inequality and so on? It obviously could be used like that, but I don't know if it is used like that. If it is used like that, I can see merit to pairing it with (not replacing it with) a novel which explores the same theme, but by a black author.

Of Mice and Men has only a brief and tengential reference to racism, with the treatment of Crooks the stablehand (who is warned that if he doesn't do what he's told, it's easy to get him hanged). It's a novel about itinerant labour during the great depression. I personally love the book, but i wonder what it's for in the curriculum - is it used as a gateway to different themes and so on.

So I wonder whether the novels are used in these ways, or whether they are just used as examples of certain types of storytelling or for some other reasons, without delving into any wider/historical context.

Of Mice and Men is a junior cert book. they dont ask questions about individual books specifically. they ask a question and you frame the answer in terms of a book you have read.

you can see some of the sample questions here

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5083c23f84ae0236022a3d76/t/509cf4a4e4b046b4294bf425/1352463524406/Sample+Answers+The+Novel+Final+Version.pdf

titan18

If one of them read Shakespeare, their minds will break.

Wanderer78

titan18 wrote: »

If one of them read Shakespeare, their minds will break.

i couldnt read it at all, and not just because id have no interest, it would have seriously bored the sh1te outta me as a teenager

titan18

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i couldnt read it at all, and not just because id have no interest, it would have seriously bored the sh1te outta me as a teenager

I mean, it's hard to read at times, but a fair few of his stuff feature sex, murder, violence etc. It's actually great

Wanderer78

titan18 wrote: »

I mean, it's hard to read at times, but a fair few of his stuff feature sex, murder, violence etc. It's actually great

oh ive no doubt his work is great, and worthy of its praise, but some people simply arent into it, such as myself

endacl

Best not change the curriculum at all.

The books already on the list are already damaged beyond repair. Why add more to the list so future adults can lament the fact that they were forced to read them?

Sardonicat

El Tarangu wrote: »

I think people are getting a bit exercised about a storm in a teacup; an unspecified number of people (could have been as few as one or two) emailed the Dept of Education, and the Dept wrote back that they would look into it.




I don't think that Peig has been on the curriculum for about 30 years.

Nope, it was still there 30 years ago.Shortly after it was reserved for the Honours students. Not sure how long it took them to ditch it completely.

Quantum Erasure

If you were coming up with a curriculum from scratch, which books would you include on it?

Wanderer78

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

If you were coming up with a curriculum from scratch, which books would you include on it?

i have a bias towards politics, economics, psychology and social issues, so some books that try to wrap all that together, great question though

Ficheall

Please don't let Wanderer78 pick the books.

DelaneyIn

THE DEPARTMENT OF Education has said it is considering suggestions it should remove certain novels from the school curriculum in the wake of this year’s Black Lives Matter protests.

It follows complaints from members of the public in recent months about a number of works on the Junior and Leaving Certificate syllabuses which contain racial slurs.

https://www.thejournal.ie/government-racist-novels-junior-cert-black-lives-matter-5201948-Sep2020/?utm_source=twitter_short

Good news, folks. We once again have the concept of "acceptable reading material".

LessOutragePlz

Next they'll want to get rid of the blackboard too because that is also clearly racist.

Ficheall

DelaneyIn wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/government-racist-novels-junior-cert-black-lives-matter-5201948-Sep2020/?utm_source=twitter_short

Good news, folks. We once again have the concept of "acceptable reading material".

Also "suggested reading material": the titles of other threads in the forum.

Edgware

Also remove any material with the words Paddy, Mick, Biddy.
Also the use of St. Paddys Day must be stopped.

y0ssar1an22

Slippery slope that. If you legislate for that, the wording will be something like any works containing racial slurs shall not be used.

Then you need to apply the same standard to all racial slurs. Then you will need to do that going forward as words evolve into racial slurs.

Padre_Pio

What a load of balls.

To Kill a Mockingbird, a story about how systemic and cultural racism results in the wrongful accusation and sentencing of a black man for rape and his eventual death, shot seventeen times no less, while apparently attempting to escape from prison.

It literally couldn't be more culturally relevant, yet a group of woke idiots want it banned because it uses the work "n*gger" and "n*gger-lover".

Considering how much of popular media uses the n word frequently, music, games, TV, movies etc, why is this being targeted?

sabat

Black teenagers in Dublin have taken to addressing each other as "Nigga" and I don't think they're picking it up from classic novels. Are there calls to scrub about a million hip-hop tunes from existence?

Sardonicat

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i have a bias towards politics, economics, psychology and social issues, so some books that try to wrap all that together, great question though

It's not merely the topics that need to be chosen, but the style, genre, etc. It's the study of literature not social issues or historical events. The tricky job is choosing books that cover the aspects of literature they want to teach at that level but will also appeal to as many young people as possible. That's not an easy task, especially now in our digital age of diminishing attention spans.

Jimbob1977

Huckleberry Finn has no chance!