All Covid-19 measures are permanent, don't be a boiling frog!

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118299491#Comment_118299491

In my opinion conspiracy theorists here are given every opportunity to present and explain their conspiracy theories. I've presented conspiracies here, answered what questions I can, it's up to others to make up their minds on it. However more than a few people are personally tied to their conspiracies or world beliefs, and don't react well to their views being challenged, so some friction is inevitable. The same goes for those challenging the conspiracy, I've seen people present mistaken facts, I've done so myself, no one is perfect.

As for the insults, I've been laughed at, ridiculed, insulted, labelled a troll so many times I can't count, etc. Personally I don't mind too much, and nothing wrong with a bit of banter, but obviously there's rules against taking it too far.

If someone wants to join any public forum and present some far-fetched ideas, good, free speech, but obviously if that individual starts to get actively hostile over straightforward challenges to their views, then at the end of the day the issue is clearly with them.

erlichbachman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118300199#Comment_118300199

The sign of a healthy forum is not only that posters can freely speak, but that free speech is defended. When it comes to Conspiracies here, not only are posters ridiculed when they propose an idea that is outside of the norm, that ridicule goes unmoderated, and past 18 months with Covid related topics it has even been nurtured in some cases. Its understandable the posters feel ridiculed and resort to such a manner of posting. Anybody going against the the general Covid consensus of keep getting vaccinated, keep making restrictions, more covid certificates, in my eyes is a breath of fresh air these days, and completely necessary for a balanced democracy.

Just the fact that any counter covid argument is placed in the Conspiracy Theories thread says a lot about free speech on this site.

"When the majority accepts blindly governmental proposals without question, we are then screwed" - erlichbachman

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118300293#Comment_118300293

the majority accepts the science behind the proposals.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118300153#Comment_118300153

Definitely trying for a ban and to build the case for the forum to be shut down.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118300293#Comment_118300293

But no one is proposing ideas outside the norm.

All we're getting are vague and ridiculous claims like the idea that covid measures are the beginning of a global communist take over or that they're part of the signs of the anti-christ.

Now before you whinge about having "real concerns" compared to "crazy conspiracy theories", these are things people in this thread have claimed.

No one has presented any rational objections to any of the covid measures.

When people are asked, they lie and dodge and whinge and then also try to shut down people who disagree with them. (Again, conspiracy theorists tried to have the forum closed because it allows non-conspiracy theorists to post and ask questions.)

So if you believe that you have rational objections, please tell us.

Please start by pointing out what covid measures will be permanent and what's the real reason for this.

320 pages and still no answer to this.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118300293#Comment_118300293

Conspiracy theorists here have repeatedly tried to create an echo chamber or safe space where their views can't be challenged normally, that doesn't seem to be in the spirit of free speech at all, quite the opposite.

With the old site, moderation was relatively normal, cards handed out, etc. With the new site there seems to be an issue with it, so possibly it's related to that.

As for ridicule and personal insults, as I said, cards, warnings and bans have been handed out on all sides. (In my experience here and seeing the ban lists on other threads, in my personal opinion it's glaringly obvious which "side" gets heavily carded and banned, but not opening that can of worms)

As for your view on "going against" the consensus, okay, a good skeptic questions everything but there are people who act contrary to prevailing wisdom out of ignorance, paranoia or spite. Being against professional medical advice or common sense measures without a valid reason to be so is just plain stupid, no getting around that.

erlichbachman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118300430#Comment_118300430

"Please start by pointing out what covid measures will be permanent and what's the real reason for this."

Maybe that's best answered by asking a question, can you state when vaccinations will end? And yes they are a "covid measure", regardless of whether you believe them necessary or unnecessary.

So you see, there is actually a reasonable logic to ask if covid measures are permanent without being a "crazy". An I wont be getting into any further discussion here because of the location of this thread, by its very residence it attracts ridicule, whether the argument is logical or not.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118301240#Comment_118301240

So you're dodging the questions I asked you and you're running away. That's pretty much how it goes on this thread and it's exactly why it's here.

Have you consider that this ridicule you're complaining about is just people pointing out dishonest behaviour like the above and pointing what people are actually saying?

Again, you're free to demonstrate that there are rational points to be made.

Just explain what measures are going to be permanent and what you believe is the real reason for it.

Surely it shouldn't take 320 pages for people to answer this.

Why do you think we've not gotten a rational answer yet?

erlichbachman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118301279#Comment_118301279

There's a number of reasons why I shouldn't engage with you Mob, your posts are based on emotion for a start, plus as I've said its easy for you and others to start claiming crazyness on the proposition of a rational theory based on the location of this thread.

However, maybe you missed it in that post where I suggested vaccinations as a permanent measure, or maybe you have an end date for vaccinations? Or maybe it isnt me dodging the questions?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118301365#Comment_118301365

what is this rational theory you speak of? I haven't seen it presented yet

erlichbachman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118301378#Comment_118301378

The rational theory is that vaccinations may be a permanent measure, and I'm not an antivaxxer or a vaxxer, completely indifferent before you decide to get the artillery out.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118301240#Comment_118301240

That all depends on if you are asking if covid, or other viruses, are going to be around long into the future and what impact that will have on society and how the world will be different. That is a perfectly reasonable question and discussion to be had, and not really for the likes of this forum.

Except the idea being posed in this forum is that vaccines, lockdown, masks, something are with us permanently... But that it's not due to a global pandemic. Instead the claim is being made that some shadowy group is directing things in the background, there is no covid, and its all for the purposes of something we've not yet been able to get the conspiracy theorists making the proposal explain.

One of those topics is a sensible discussion on the future of the world, the other is a conspiracy theory. They may have similar questions as openers, but it is not the same discussion.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118301413#Comment_118301413

nope, the thread title is ALL covid measure will be permanent..... not ANY covid measure may be permanent.

we all can get the following vaccinations as part of our public heath service:

Diphtheria

Tetanus

Whooping Cough

Haemophilus influenzae b

Polio

Hepatitis B

Pneumococcal Conjugate

Meningococcal B

Measles

Mumps

Rubella

Meningococcal C

Live Attenuated Influenza 

human papillomavirus

whats the problem with adding 'severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2' vaccine to this list?

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118301413#Comment_118301413

We may need an annual jab or boosters, because of the virus.

However, posters on this forum hint there is a different ulterior motive behind the measures, which they usually can't explain, certainly not in any detail. It remains veiled behind innuendo. Of the few who do commit, it's vague conspiracies involving plans of global domination that can't be supported.

Nobody has a crystal ball and can predict when they might end. However, lack of an "expiry date" on something like vaccinations does not mean that they are permanent. To claim otherwise is simply flawed logic.......

For example....when is Winter going to end? You don't know? So does that make winter permanent, then?

When's the next time it'll snow in Dublin? Again, if you cannot say then making the leap to "snow is permanently gone from the city" just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

You said:

When it comes to Conspiracies here, not only are posters ridiculed when they propose an idea that is outside of the norm, that ridicule goes unmoderated

Nobody is ridiculed for posting anything outside the norm. People are ridiculed (and very rarely, I might add) for posting completely illogical and unproven bollocks as pure fact and refusing to engage anything that might expose how illogical and unproven those theories are. Or for selectively choosing the bits they feel support their argument only to blithely ignore the mountains (and there are literal mountains in some cases) of evidence that contradict their argument. It is completely devoid of intellectual honesty.

It's one thing to come on and say "the Pope is secretly a polar bear" and show pictures of him eating a seal carcass. It's quite another to make that statement without any supporting evidence whatsoever, then stick your head in the sand and refuse to engage with others who want to know why you think that might be the case.

For what it's worth, your question about vaccines being permanent is the first plausible theory I've seen put forward in this thread. There is a very real possibility that we may need some form of annual inoculation against covid in perpetuity. It is an infinitesimally small possibility, but possible nonetheless. However, ask yourself the following:

Does that mean vaccines are here permanently? No

Does it mean all covid measures are here permanently? No

Does it mean we should stop querying unsubstantiated claims about government overreach from now on? No

Why has it taken 15 months and almost 10,000 posts for someone to make this argument? I mean, when this thread was started, we didn't even have a vaccine.

erlichbachman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118301474#Comment_118301474

No problem at all, add away

The context of my response is based on a post from Mob -"Please start by pointing out what covid measures will be permanent and what's the real reason for this."

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118301365#Comment_118301365

Lol. What emotion are you referring to?

And again, no, I'm claiming "craziness" based on the theories that have been partly presented ie, global communists/satanists etc and on the fact that no rational theory has been proposed.

But you are now trying to weasel your way around your answer.

You did not suggest vaccinations are a permanent measure. You asked a random off topic question without actually making a statment about it.

You also completely ignored the second part of the question I asked you.

So try again:

What measures are going to be permanent? What is the real reason for this?

Third time I'm asking you because I've yet to get a straight, complete answer.

erlichbachman

Can somebody help Mob out there, please

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118301581#Comment_118301581

And third time my question has been dodged.

Cools.

This is why "people who question yadda yadda" are not taken very seriously at all.

paulieeye

I would think yes, the vaccine will be here for as long as covid is a threat.

Hopefully some other measures will be permanent too after COVID, like people standing too close to you in a queue. It doesnt matter how close you stand to me, you're not getting to the top of the queue any faster.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118301593#Comment_118301593

Word of warning......don't ever go to India. You can literally feel (and smell) their breath on your neck as they queue behind you....

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/28/india-bank-lines-controversy-cash-for-queuing

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118301562#Comment_118301562

what do you think the real reason is?

erlichbachman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118301753#Comment_118301753

Well there is no real reason to a hypothetical scenario, despite what Mob thinks.

Do you mean what might the reason be that we would still have the current status of necessary vaccinations and certificates for vaccinated, in x years time?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118302150#Comment_118302150

what would be the reason for maintaining vaccinations if they are not medically required?

erlichbachman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118302160#Comment_118302160

Are they medically required now? Assuming your answer is yes, then at what point do we go from medically required to not medically required in your question?

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118302197#Comment_118302197

Hmm, we are into a very familiar pattern here.

Do you think there are any ulterior motives behind measures in Ireland, if no, fine. If yes, what are they specifically?

By measures I mean lockdowns, masks, vaccines, etc.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118302197#Comment_118302197

When the global pandemic ends

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118302197#Comment_118302197

yes they are medically required. Do you not believe that?

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118301413#Comment_118301413

As has already been pointed out the title of this thread is that ALL Covid-19 measures are permanent, not just vaccines.

You mention the rational theory that vaccinations may be permanent. May is a long speculative stretch away from are permanent. But if this rational theory is being based on Covid vaccines being permanent as a problem for some, then why is it just for these vaccines.?

Influenza vaccines have been around since the 1930`s and are now for all intents and purposes a permanent measure with annual shots. So why are influenza vaccines not a problem under this rational theory as well ?

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118302211#Comment_118302211

The mention of the rational theory earlier may go some way to explaining the familiar pattern.😉