All Covid-19 measures are permanent, don't be a boiling frog!

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118150032#Comment_118150032

Not to mention - these are all deaths with covid not death from covid - which is hugely inflating the death figures.

Lol. Are people still trying this lie?

Sorry, but no, this isn't true. They are not counting deaths with covid as death from covid. They are counts covid deaths as covid deaths.

If you believe that the figures are being "hugely inflated" please explain what you believe the accurate numbers are and how this number is arrived at.

When this lie was tried before, the conspiracy theorists claiming it ran away and started throwing tanturms because they couldn't support it.

foxsake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118150093#Comment_118150093

what lie? that is how deaths are counting - they said so at dail committee and it's broadly similar in Uk and US.

you are incorrect or just taking the p!ss.

copied just now from the source . shouldn't need to quote the source cos a man making such a bold statement like your would be familiar with the official sources in Ireland. In case you are a blowhard its from the https://www.hpsc.ie/ FAQ

in bold for your pleasure. confirmed death - all you need is a covid positive and lo and behold it's rampant in the hospitals.

lets not discuss the other death scenario listed cos it just makes the case weaker

Q. Can you describe what death in confirmed/probable/possible case of COVID-19 means?

The case definition for COVID-19 in Ireland has been updated routinely during the pandemic in accordance with the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control (ECDC) guidance and updates.

Deaths in confirmed COVID-19 case: A death in a person with laboratory confirmation of COVID-19 infection, irrespective of clinical signs and symptoms (including post mortem).

Deaths in probable COVID-19 case: A death in a person with probable COVID-19 infection as described in the COVID-19 case definition below

Deaths in possible/suspect COVID-19 case: See below scenarios for possible/suspect cases which should be reported as COVID-19 deaths.

All unexplained deaths/sudden deaths in residential facilities with a confirmed/suspected COVID-19 cluster/outbreak of illness unless there is a clear alternative cause of death that cannot be related to COVID-19 disease (e.g. trauma)

All deaths in patients suspected of having COVID-19 i.e. patients with symptoms clinically compatible with COVID-19 illness. These suspect cases may or may not have been tested for COVID-19 prior to death. These possible COVID-19 deaths include patients with pending COVID-19 laboratory results. 

A person can be classified as a probable or possible COVID-19 death without laboratory confirmation of COVID-19 based on the criteria for probable and possible cases of COVID-19 as outlined in the case definition.

Ash.J.Williams

Getting getting vaccinated and then getting Covid is the way forward

It’s still a nasty bug though

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118150032#Comment_118150032

Hi, just in regards to this, I'll point you towards the ICU post I made last month

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118045087#Comment_118045087

the alcohol, smokes and fatloss comment are all things that are 9 times out of 10, long term illness and from over consumption, if you banned all them today and sent everyone to fatcamp... it would be years to see the results.... that said, it doesn't mean it's not being done (see end of comment below).

The argument can be easily flipped, where if you banned smokes, alcohol and bad foods, the government could be seen as "stopping people putting what they want into their body"... after all, it's not the casual person having a drink or two who usually ends up in the health system due to it, it's your chronic long term users..... so at the cost of not looking like a totalitarian government and banning it completely, they educate and tax it ridiculously as a deterrent

Back to COVID , fortunately, there is something that can cut numbers of ICU patients with it, in a short time, and it's called the vaccine, the numbers from around the world aren't lying, as much as people seem to want them to...

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118150032#Comment_118150032

"The unvaccinated are being scapegoated" - They are disproportionally taking up hospital resources. Last check they make up 7% of the population yet are taking up 66% of beds in the ICU for Covid patients. That's horrendous.

"They should have the choice over what goes into their bodies - if they want to risk it" - No. The willfully unvaccinated are putting others at higher risk. They are putting those they meet, those around them, their colleagues, friends, family members at increased risk.

If someone doesn't want to get the vaccine for whatever quack reasons, fine, but they can go and **** themselves if they think they can come into my office and put me, and by extension, my family at increased risk.

Dohnjoe

The Covid contrarian starter kit:

"It's just a little flu"

"Who cares it mainly just kills old people"

"if they want to be unvaccinated more power to them"

"So what, more people die from cancer every year"

"Covid's still around so measures don't work at all, might as well not have them"

"What's the big deal"

"Every single government and their respective bodies of health experts, virologists, scientists and professionals in the world has got it wrong, but I'm right"

"Hospitals were grand, just a little extra busy that's all"

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118150200#Comment_118150200

Cool. Your link explains how they classify covid deaths. They do not do what you said they did.

Also, I asked you to supply the correct figure. Please provide it now.

You are now engaging in the typical conspiracy theorist tactic of ignoring points you don't want to address.

It's dishonest and cowardly and you shouldn't do it. It's a very quick way to get people to stop taking you seriously.

King Mob

Also notice how yet again we've moved on from the central question without it being answered.

What measures will be permanent and why?

Why has it taken nearly 300 pages to get this answered?

The only measure people are consistantly claiming will be permanent is mask wearing. We have yet to hear why. Conspiracy theorists are terrified of this question in particular and will do anything, including outright lie, to avoid answering it.

Why is that?

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118150356#Comment_118150356

"Masks are muzzles/totalitarism/a crime against humanity."

"Vague hints and comments about the vaccine that I will run away from when challenged."

"Vague hints that there's a conspiracy or that governments are doing something that I will run away from when challenged."

"You disagree with me and are asking difficult questions, you're obviously being paid to do so."

Fighting Tao

A couple of new(old) players seem to have tagged in. Discussion quality has decreased though. Back to really old stuff for some of them.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118150629#Comment_118150629

The above is more the Covid conspiracy theorist

The contrarians on the other hand are "smart" enough not to commit to any conspiracy, they just enjoy playing down the pandemic and validating the anti-vaxxers, conspiracy theorists, anti-lockdown types, etc. It's all the same spectrum really.

foxsake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118150585#Comment_118150585

I proved that you were wrong - keep in denial, it's ok.

how would I know what the actual covid death figures were? Count them myself? the hse don't have them and that's the point.

but if you engaged your brain it would be clear that the people who died from covid were a subset of those who died while testing positive

The Uk have a similar measure to us and the telegraph ran several pieces on how the numbers were wrong.

I wouldn't hold my breath on such analysis here by state or media services.

if you think the measure of a covid death as quoted is reasonable then you have no desire for accuracy or the truth.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118151337#Comment_118151337

can you show me those Telegraph articles? UK here, so very interested

edit: ah the crapstorm yesterday where the NHS director used incorrect figures....

You do realise how they debunked her numbers? Because, they didn't tie in with the numerous government and independent agencies stats covering COVID... I'm not sure what the conspiracy is

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118151337#Comment_118151337

So you don't have the correct figures and you have no evidence to support your claim. Cools.

What medical institutions agree with your assesment that covid figures are being overestimated? Please list them.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118151337#Comment_118151337

For the UK, the daily figures given out show one method of counting. The weekly figures which count by another method match very closely to the weekly numbers. And then the subsequent analysis of excess deaths over several years again shows numbers which match as expected with the other counts.

Where is the errors that you are claiming? What should the nunbers be by your reckoning?

Dohnjoe

I see we're back to this again.

"The Covid figures are wrong!"

-Okay, what are the correct figures and what is your methodology for determining that?

"The Covid figures are wrong!"

PintOfView

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118150032#Comment_118150032

"alternative : manage it better , more focus on healthcare for everybody instead of destroying many aspects of our society."

So what is your alternative plan for managing it that would have resulted in a better outcome (better includes similar or lower mortality rate, plus hospitals not being overrun)?

The unvaccinated are being scapegoated - there is no doubt about it. They should have the choice over what goes into their bodies and if they want to risk it then so be it. Morre power to them.

Sure the unvaccinated should have a choice over what goes in their bodies. That doesn't mean, however, that they have right to raise the risk to others (both vaccinated and unvaccinated) by attending a crowded event, for eg., does it?

The stats from the government showing that ICU is full on non-vaxx - they don't say this anymore btw- was a HSE report issued in Oct 2021 - ranging from April 2021 to beginning of Oct 2021 . You do know that we only hit 50% full vaxxed on the 21st july - I know you know that date cos who wouldn't. So blaming the 10% for data that was gathered when the unvaxxed were a majority is crap. lies.

Firstly, you say that we only hit 50% fully vaxxed on 21 July (and btw I didn't know that!!). Do you realise that most of the unvaccinated at that date were younger people, or children?

Here is a report from the HSE from 2nd Nov, covering the period from 26 June to 30 October. Here are some points from it:

• 400 people with Covid were admitted to ICU in this period (26/6 - 31/10)
• 58.5% were not vaccinated, and a further 5.6% were partially vaccinated (so 64% not fully vaccinated)
• 17 pregnant women were admitted to ICU, with 16 unvaccinated (the 17th was partially vaccinated).
• During this period 95% of over 50's were vaccinated, and 85% of over 40's, 80% of over 30's, 75% of over 20's. (see this page)
• Looking at that picture can you not see that the unvaccinated are faring much worse than the vaccinated? If we're being conservative and saying that 2 out of 10 of the population were unvaccinated, but 6.5 out of 10 in ICU were unvaccinated, then doesn't that tell you what the increased risk is? And recognising that the increased risk is to the unvaccinated is hardly scapegoating, do you want us to bury our heads in the sand and pretend otherwise?

as for america - the deaths and icu cases (was it 96% of them??) were of people who are already sick with 4 comorbidities (I'll concede covid19 taught me that word along with other words I'd rather forget) - that's 4 serious illnesses. those people weren't in good nick - regular illness more risk to the very unhealthy ...it may shock you but that's nature at work ..been like that forever.

Regardless of the underlying conditions there were, as of June, 700,000 excess deaths in the US, ie. people dead who wouldn't be expected to be dead. That would be equivalent to nearly 11,000 in our population, whereas our excess deaths would appear to of the order of 1,000. Do you think we should have used your strategy and simply sacrificed the other 10,000, and ran our hospitals into the ground at the same time?

foxsake

400 people with Covid were admitted to ICU in this period (26/6 - 31/10)

58.5% were not vaccinated, and a further 5.6% were partially vaccinated (so 64% not fully vaccinated)

17 pregnant women were admitted to ICU, with 16 unvaccinated (the 17th was partially vaccinated).

During this period 95% of over 50's were vaccinated, and 85% of over 40's, 80% of over 30's, 75% of over 20's. (see this page)

Looking at that picture can you not see that the unvaccinated are faring much worse than the vaccinated? If we're being conservative and saying that 2 out of 10 of the population were unvaccinated, but 6.5 out of 10 in ICU were unvaccinated, then doesn't that tell you what the increased risk is? And recognising that the increased risk is to the unvaccinated is hardly scapegoating, do you want us to bury our heads in the sand and pretend otherwise?

no cos the stats you are using to beat the unvaccinated are taken from a period when the number went from a majority - large minority - small minority of the population were unvaxxed. Give me stats esclusively in sept/oct and remove the under 12s . Then those stats are fair and honest.

until then its' skewed.

as for the pregnant women - I believe they are right . Normally you cant take some painkiller when pregnant but now we are told this new vaccine is safe..

but is it ? Quoted below is the HSE site on booking a vaccine - we currently only offer Pfizer/BioNTech jab.

The information we have so far shows that the Pfizer/BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine does not have any negative effect on babies in the womb.

if I were a young woman - at little risk from this virus - would I risk ANY sides on my baby - if the above is the best comfort the HSE can offer?

cos we know none of the kids born to mother taken the vaxx have reached 1 yet not mind most of the milestone. Just me - I'd hang off if I were a woman but their choice.

call me suspicious if you like but one is responsible for their own due diligence and that line quoted wouldn't do it for me

remember the same people have a history of mistreating patients not mind women in the past..

of course, it to weight up your risk/reward - if somebody was ill or at risk I'd say yeah take your chance on the jab. If you were worried about covid - take it. If you were a person who trusted the state apparatus (or pharma companies - cos very few products get recalled etc..) - take it.

but if you didn't need it , why would you run the risk?

That and shoddy stats are my main gripes.

I got in here by replying to a post - I'd prefer to continue in main covid thread/section.

CS isn't for me - none of them are theories :)

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118156141#Comment_118156141

Do you acknowledge that by not getting the vaccine, that person is putting others at increased risk?

Do you also acknowledge that some people don't know what's best for them, that they are lay-people who can read nonsense on the internet and trust that nonsense over professional medical advice? The majority (100%) of anti-vaccine people I know are exactly those kind of people. Putting not just themselves, but others, including me and my family at increased risk.

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118156141#Comment_118156141

Sorry, still waiting for you to explain your claim that the figure for covid deaths is being heavily inflated.

You admited you have no evidence for this and cannot supply any figures to support your claim.

I asked you to explain which medical organisations supported you claims.

I take it that because you're ignoring the question that you can't provide any examples.

So, why is there no evidence for your claims and why do no medical organisations agree with you?

Typicially here conspiracy theorists claim that there's a cover up rather than they are just wrong.

Is this what you believe? If so, then yes, you are proposing a conspiracy theory and your claims belong here with the other ridiculous notions.

I also suspect that like other conspiracy theorists, you will avoid giving straight answers about your beliefs because you understand that saying them out loud sounds really silly.

foxsake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118156213#Comment_118156213

I explained why I believe the covid death figure is inflated.

I felt my explainer was clear as day that the definition is too loose - if you want more I won't be obliging.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118156862#Comment_118156862

No you didn't. You've just said you think it's wrong, but given zero reason why you think it's wrong, zero evidence to back up any other numbers and zero claims from other sources about how the numbers are wrong.

You've just said the numbers are wrong and then stuck your fingers in your ears and gone la la la when people ask you why or what the alternative number might be.

Pawinho

"Is this vaccine passports 2.0?"

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-europe-digital-id/

foxsake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118156213#Comment_118156213

I also suspect that like other conspiracy theorists, you will avoid giving straight answers about your beliefs because you understand that saying them out loud sounds really silly.

nah , what is really happening is you aren't hearing either a mea culpa or a repetition of what you believe so you resort to wild accusations about people you don't know. says more about you tbh - hanging around the CS forum righting the wrongs of the internet

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118156862#Comment_118156862

Yes. But you also admitted that you can't actually support that assertion.

Nor have you explained why no medicial organisations agree with your claims.

Why are you ignoring that question?

Is it because you don't want to claim that medicial organisations are actually involved in a conspiracy?

King Mob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118156992#Comment_118156992

Lol. Ok then. Why are you ignoring the very simple question?

Why do no medical organisations agree with you?

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118156966#Comment_118156966

It's a proposed digital ID, sounds pretty cool. Hope it will come in microchip and digital tattoo form.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118157214#Comment_118157214

Was USC originally said to be a temporary measure? How did that go?

Income tax a temporary measure?: Income Tax Act 1842 - Wikipedia

"Although promoted as a temporary measure, income tax has been levied continually in Britain ever since."

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118158702#Comment_118158702

Yeah. Income tax has nothing to do with a pandemic.

It's very simple, you are in charge of the country, the buck stops with you. There's a highly infectious disease going around, people are dying, hospitals are filling up, cases are rising exponentially, what measures do you take?

Don't deflect, run away, play dumb, play games, etc, just answer the question.

relax carry on

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118158702#Comment_118158702

Jesus, this is a new level of desperation. How do you exist in a normal functional society thinking the way you do. It must be exhausting.