All Covid-19 measures are permanent, don't be a boiling frog!

The Nal

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not talking about the vaccine passport itself.

Thats exactly what you were talking about. You typed it, its there for everyone to read.

Deleted User wrote: »

The point I am making is that whenever the Government comes out with a statement ruling something out that declaration shouldn't be believed unquestioningly.

Thank you Captain obvious. What sort of idiot takes government statements as gospel?



Vaccine passports were always on the table and always likely in some fashion. But even theyre problematic as we dont know how long immunity lasts with the vaccine.

Dohnjoe

Dohnjoe wrote: »

First off, read your own links and look at the context. We don't have a crystal ball, we are simply working from best estimates like everyone else, and that includes politicians, so when they say X may happen, it may, it may not, the virus and situation is constantly changing and evolving. We all thought we'd be in pubs by now, we aren't, why? we didn't estimate this level of the virus would last this long.

Vaccine passports are simply one potential solution to open up society sooner whilst keeping the spread of the virus down. Some countries might use them in certain situations, some countries might not, some might change their mind as the situation develops. It's not hard to understand that. Yet conspiracy theorists manage to not only completely misunderstand it, but they somehow interpret it in some paranoid, delusional way that "something is going on", but something they can never explain or detail properly.

The cycle of "I don't get it, therefore conspiracy" continues

You're missing the point I'm making. I'm not debating the idea of a vaccine passport. I'm cautioning against believing the Government says unquestioningly. It was claimed that the US isn't going down the vaccine passport road because the Government said it wouldn't be. But, as you say, things can change.

Dohnjoe

Deleted User wrote: »

But if the Irish Government was asked why weed was illegal in the country they could say, and I'm guessing they would say since it's illegal, that they believe weed to be dangerous.

If the Spanish Government was asked to explain why wearing a mask alone in the countryside is mandatory in Spain, but is not mandatory when a person is walking alone in the countryside in Sweden, I don't know how they'd be able to explain why.

It was claimed that a child could understand the measures being taken. But would a child understand the specific measure regarding the mask policy when walking alone in the countryside in Spain vs the mask policy (or lack of a policy rather) when walking alone in the countryside in Sweden?

Jesus christ. Different countries have different laws and rules. Literally different regions within a country can have different laws/rules. This can be for a wide variety of historical, political, social, economic, etc reasons. Spain has decided to make masks in public mandatory. Maybe it was a close decision. Perhaps in Sweden the decision swung the other way.

Again this underscores the notion that people who gravitate towards conspiracy theories either don't understand a lot of basic stuff or refuse to understand it.

King Mob

Deleted User wrote: »

It was claimed that the US isn't going down the vaccine passport road because the Government said it wouldn't be. But, as you say, things can change.

That wasn't the claim.
You are misrepresenting me now on top of ignoring my questions. This is very dishonest of you.

Dohnjoe

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Jesus christ. Different countries have different laws and rules. Literally different regions within a country can have different laws/rules. This can be for a wide variety of historical, political, social, economic, etc reasons. Spain has decided to make masks in public mandatory. Maybe it was a close decision. Perhaps in Sweden the decision swung the other way.

Again this underscores the notion that people who gravitate towards conspiracy theories either don't understand a lot of basic stuff or refuse to understand it.

You said that a child could understand the measures. Would a child be able to understand why when standing alone in the countryside in Spain a mask is required, but when standing alone in the countryside in Sweden a mask isn't required? I'm talking about that measure specifically.

The Nal

The Nal wrote: »

Thats exactly what you were talking about. You typed it, its there for everyone to read.



Thank you Captain obvious. What sort of idiot takes government statements as gospel?



Vaccine passports were always on the table and always likely in some fashion. But even theyre problematic as we dont know how long immunity lasts with the vaccine.

A lot of people do. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard people say "The Government says it won't happen" etc.

Just on immunity, Professor Carl Heneghan was interviewed today and he mentioned data which suggests that immunity from the Moderna (I think) vaccine should last for a couple of years. So there should be news on that soon.

Dohnjoe

Deleted User wrote: »

You said that a child could understand the measures. Would a child be able to understand why when standing alone in the countryside in Spain a mask is required, but when standing alone in the countryside in Sweden a mask isn't required? I'm talking about that measure specifically.

Now we are descending into the selective "I don't get it" stuff

Why do police have guns in certain countries but not others? why is weed legal in some countries but not others? why is the speed limit higher in some countries but not others?

Do you know why, or is it a complete mystery to you?

If you know why, then all this "bafflement" over masks is an act
If you don't know why, then there's your issue

King Mob

Deleted User wrote: »

You said that a child could understand the measures. Would a child be able to understand why when standing alone in the countryside in Spain a mask is required, but when standing alone in the countryside in Sweden a mask isn't required? I'm talking about that measure specifically.

If you have the real explanation for it, we're all ears.

It's been explained to you several times, but you aren't listening and you're ignoring things that will cause you to think about your conspiracy beliefs more closely.

You are also ignoring when people are pointing out your dishonesty.

Have you consider why you are doing this?

King Mob

King Mob wrote: »

Ok. So are they part of the conspiracy or not?
Do you not know?


Was this part of the plan then?
If so, what was the point of it?

Which part is going to be permeant? Or have you guys given up that claim now?

I don't know, but I just don't believe the Government when it comes out with declarations. I take what they say with a pinch of salt. I don't automatically disbelieve them either.

EyesClosed

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't know, but I just don't believe the Government when it comes out with declarations. I take what they say with a pinch of salt. I don't automatically disbelieve them either.

So far nothing about covid measures has been proven to be permanent... In fact each country is clearly doing its own thing. So can you tell me what will be permanent?

Dohnjoe

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't know, but I just don't believe the Government when it comes out with declarations. I take what they say with a pinch of salt. I don't automatically disbelieve them either.

Is an equally absurd default position to have. It depends on the context. If the government declares 10 people died in a train accident, do you automatically think they are lying?

Healthy skepticism is fine, blind distrust is not.

Back to Covid measures, we already removed them in May last year and the virus came back. Why would anyone think that every measure is permanent?

What would be the point of that? It doesn't make sense "as a plan" on any level.

Dohnjoe

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Now we are descending into the selective "I don't get it" stuff

Why do police have guns in certain countries but not others? why is weed legal in some countries but not others? why is the speed limit higher in some countries but not others?

Do you know why, or is it a complete mystery to you?

If you know why, then all this "bafflement" over masks is an act
If you don't know why, then there's your issue

It's a complete mystery to me why standing under a tree alone in the countryside in Spain requires that a person wear a mask, but under the exact same circumstances in Sweden doesn't.

Anyway, we can just agree to disagree. I respect your opinion.

Fighting Tao

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a complete mystery to me why standing under a tree alone in the countryside in Spain requires that a person wear a mask, but under the exact same circumstances in Sweden doesn't.

Anyway, we can just agree to disagree. I respect your opinion.

The rule is made so a child can understand it. It is consistent regardless of in a packed concert hall, or alone on the top of a mountain. If there are exceptions then people like you will be even more confused. Surely you realise (although maybe not) that if a person is alone in the countryside, then there is no one checking if they are wearing a mask or not....so what is the problem?

Dohnjoe

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Is an equally absurd default position to have. It depends on the context. If the government declares 10 people died in a train accident, do you automatically think they are lying?

Healthy skepticism is fine, blind distrust is not.

Back to Covid measures, we already removed them in May last year and the virus came back. Why on earth would anyone think that every single measure is permanent?

What would be the point of that? It doesn't make sense "as a plan" on any level.

I don't mean factual statements. Healthy scepticism is what, I mean. It would be very wise to take what Boris Johnson says with a pinch of salt, for example.

Can you understand why people in the UK, for example, might be concerned about masks and social distancing sticking around for a very long time? SAGE came out with a paper the other day saying masks and social distancing should be mandatory for another year at least: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14552364/face-masks-distancing-next-year-sage-warns/

A few weeks ago Dr Mary Ramsay of PHE said they should remain in place for a years. Lord Sumption says they could be in place for 10 years.

And it's not to suggest there's a plan, but just that it can be very hard to regain freedoms once they've been taken away. But there are encouraging signs in Australia (I feared masks would stick around in Victoria, for example, but they are no longer mandatory in retail) and in the US to a lesser extent.

The Nal

Deleted User wrote: »

saying masks and social distancing should be mandatory for another year at least: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14552364/face-masks-distancing-next-year-sage-warns/

Nope, again, you are unwilling or unable to read. Past a headline in the Sun of all places.

They didn't say "should" be mandatory for another year, they said "could" be mandatory for another year.

Again, its in the link you posted.

"It’s only right and responsible to look at all options available to us."

King Mob

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't know,

Then why do you believe there's a big global conspiracy then?
Why do you believe in something that doesn't make sense?

Deleted User wrote: »

but I just don't believe the Government when it comes out with declarations. I take what they say with a pinch of salt. I don't automatically disbelieve them either.

Yet, you seem to swallow everything from conspiracy mongers...

King Mob

Deleted User wrote: »

And it's not to suggest there's a plan, but just that it can be very hard to regain freedoms once they've been taken away. But there are encouraging signs in Australia (I feared masks would stick around in Victoria, for example, but they are no longer mandatory in retail) and in the US to a lesser extent.

Ok.
So why would masks be permanent?
How does this benefit a global conspiracy?

If you don't know the answer to these questions, please just say so.

Dohnjoe

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't mean factual statements. Healthy scepticism is what, I mean. It would be very wise to take what Boris Johnson says with a pinch of salt, for example.

Yet you swallow comments and claims you read from Amazon reviews, from conspiracy sites, from conspiracy theorists on here without much questioning

You'll "struggle" to grasp why a country has different rules to another, but you'll buy into some vague over-the-top conspiracy about Communists taking over the world

It doesn't add up one jot

PintOfView

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't mean factual statements. Healthy scepticism is what, I mean. It would be very wise to take what Boris Johnson says with a pinch of salt, for example.

Can you understand why people in the UK, for example, might be concerned about masks and social distancing sticking around for a very long time? SAGE came out with a paper the other day saying masks and social distancing should be mandatory for another year at least: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14552364/face-masks-distancing-next-year-sage-warns/

A few weeks ago Dr Mary Ramsay of PHE said they should remain in place for a years. Lord Sumption says they could be in place for 10 years.

And it's not to suggest there's a plan, but just that it can be very hard to regain freedoms once they've been taken away. But there are encouraging signs in Australia (I feared masks would stick around in Victoria, for example, but they are no longer mandatory in retail) and in the US to a lesser extent.

It would be a good idea to extend the healthy scepticism you (rightly) have for what Boris Johnson says, also to what Lord Sumption says, and probably to a good many more politicians.

None of this stuff is set in stone, and politicians give their view at the moment they're asked.
The view they give may be correct, or incorrect (depending on their own understanding),
or true, or half true, or even completely untrue (depending on whether they want to tell you or not).

However as circumstances change, either due to the virus, or perhaps public opinion, then their responses may change.
And this is often a good thing, and shows that democracy is working (they'll often reflect what their constituents are thinking).

And different politicians may draw different conclusions, even from similar data. Sometimes that's to be
consistent with what they said before, so they're not seen to u-turn and admit they might have been wrong the first time.
So it doesn't surprise me that mask recommendations are different between Sweden and Spain, for eg., or Brazil.
It all depends on who is making the decisions, and when, etc.

And doesn't that also show you the difficulty a global cabal would have in even trying to rein in all these different countries, and make them all do their bidding, never mind actually succeeding?

The Nal

King Mob wrote: »

Yet, you seem to swallow everything from conspiracy mongers...

Question everything.... but believe headlines in the Sun newspaper.

Dohnjoe

The Nal wrote: »

Question everything.... but believe headlines in the Sun newspaper.

Question everything... except other conspiracy theories by random people on the internet

Guy:Incognito

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Jesus christ. Different countries have different laws and rules. Literally different regions within a country can have different laws/rules. This can be for a wide variety of historical, political, social, economic, etc reasons. Spain has decided to make masks in public mandatory. Maybe it was a close decision. Perhaps in Sweden the decision swung the other way.

Again this underscores the notion that people who gravitate towards conspiracy theories either don't understand a lot of basic stuff or refuse to understand it.

Even down to things like you're much more likely to have a packed beach full of practically naked people in Spain running around and doing whatever activity they want to do on a beach Vs a much colder climate in Sweden doing what Swedes do.


On a different but related note, I often wonder how many of the people that claim they can't wear a mask for medical reasons have been on skiing holidays and the like.........

sabat

ShatterAlan wrote: »

They are nothing alike.


And to even say such a thing displays an embarrassing lack of knowledge.


It's as bereft of understanding as saying that mountain-climbing and formula 1 racing are more or less the same thing because you can get injured or die doing either.

What's essentially important is that they're both systems of total state control over the individual overseen by an elite. The reason you get so many seemingly contradictory opinions about whether we're experiencing fascism or communism as this new system is being bludgeoned into being is down to the person and their nationality/background/life experience etc. An American in their 60s will see increased government regulations, conformity of speech and thought, and runaway public spending as encroaching communism whereas a European will see the fusion between corporate and public bodies and the denigration of alternative political views and the dehumanising of those holding them and perceive fascism.

https://mobile.twitter.com/trestrange/status/1349603562310029312/photo/2

Timberrrrrrrr

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You don't understand how a person finds it difficult to grasp why a mask is mandatory when a person is walking alone in the countryside in Spain but not mandatory when a person is walking alone in the countryside in Sweden?

It is mandatory in Spain to carry ID, Do you believe this should be bought in for the Irish? How would you feel about a guard stopping you and asking for your mandatory if and getting arrested/fined ID you didn't have it?

sabat

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Now we are descending into the selective "I don't get it" stuff

Why do police have guns in certain countries but not others? why is weed legal in some countries but not others? why is the speed limit higher in some countries but not others?

Do you know why, or is it a complete mystery to you?

If you know why, then all this "bafflement" over masks is an act
If you don't know why, then there's your issue

But it doesn't make sense though, does it? It's the same virus and the rules are supposedly based on scientific evidence, which shouldn't be affected by any cultural differences. The process for handling plutonium is the same in Spain as it is in Germany; a construction engineer performs the same calculations in Ireland as he does in France; a centimetre is the same size everywhere, so what is it about covid19 that causes science to vary once it meets a national border?

Dohnjoe

sabat wrote: »

But it doesn't make sense though, does it? It's the same virus and the rules are supposedly based on scientific evidence, which shouldn't be affected by any cultural differences. The process for handling plutonium is the same in Spain as it is in Germany; a construction engineer performs the same calculations in Ireland as he does in France; a centimetre is the same size everywhere, so what is it about covid19 that causes science to vary once it meets a national border?

Each country is choosing their own rules based on a variety of factors. Note the differences in how Bolsonaro in Brazil has treated the virus compared to New Zealand, and then compare that to China.

Different countries, different leaders, different governments, different conditions, different socio-economic circumstances, difference geography, different levels of the virus. Overall it's generally been quite similar, but of course, you know that, however you'd rather split hairs over differences so that you can raise doubts about the pandemic in order to hint of whatever vague conspiracy you've chosen. At least you've made a prediction. Other conspiracy theorists are more devious and sit in the fence so they can get more longevity out of their fantasy, you just get until this summer.

runawaybishop

sabat wrote: »

But it doesn't make sense though, does it?

Yes, it makes perfect sense. Different countries, with different medical capacity, with different levels of virus in the community, with different politcal and historical ideologies are making their own decisions.

Just because you fail to understand primary school concepts doesn't mean there is a conspiracy.

Maybe if you spent less time obsessing over Marxist nonsense that will never impact you and spent some time in the real world educating yourself you'd realise this.

King Mob

sabat wrote: »

But it doesn't make sense though, does it? It's the same virus and the rules are supposedly based on scientific evidence, which shouldn't be affected by any cultural differences. The process for handling plutonium is the same in Spain as it is in Germany; a construction engineer performs the same calculations in Ireland as he does in France; a centimetre is the same size everywhere, so what is it about covid19 that causes science to vary once it meets a national border?

Ok, so what's the real explanation then?
By the same token, if all countries were involved in a giant global conspiracy to trick people into wearing masks/getting the vaccine/whatever, then shouldn't the response be the same every where also?
The fact that the responses are so different and confused and apparently contradictory would indicate that there is no global conspiracy and your claims are false.

I am going to bet you will continue to ignore this issue with your stance and you'll pretend it doesn't exist.

King Mob

sabat wrote: »

The reason you get so many seemingly contradictory opinions about whether we're experiencing fascism or communism as this new system is being bludgeoned into being is down to the person and their nationality/background/life experience etc.

No, the reason why people are making contradictory claims is because like yourself they don't actually know the difference and claim that the idealogies are the same.
Most conspiracy mongers make claims about communism because that makes their conservative leaning target audience more angry and scared.
They throw in the odd reference to facism when it suits to shock and grab attention.

sabat wrote: »

and the denigration of alternative political views and the dehumanising of those holding them and perceive fascism.

Lol no. People being called out for anti-science, conspiratorial and racist things is not the same as what happened to people during Nazi rule.
That would be a ridiculous thing to believe.

buzzerxx

King Mob wrote: »

No, the reason why people are making contradictory claims is because like yourself they don't actually know the difference and claim that the idealogies are the same.
Most conspiracy mongers make claims about communism because that makes their conservative leaning target audience more angry and scared.
They throw in the odd reference to facism when it suits to shock and grab attention.


Lol no. People being called out for anti-science, conspiratorial and racist things is not the same as what happened to people during Nazi rule.
That would be a ridiculous thing to believe.

60,000 Doctors, Scientists, and medical professionals have signed The Great Barrington Declaration and are being ignored.
Are they all about anti-science ?