Why do the Irish craft breweries use 440ml cans?

kenmc

Did a quick search on the phone, not spotted. As the title says, why are they all pushing poxy kiddie sized 440ml cans instead of the proper adult sized ones? Haven't noticed any of them being lower priced than comparable offerings from other breweries in 500ml bottles.

VeVeX

kenmc wrote: »

Did a quick search on the phone, not spotted. As the title says, why are they all pushing poxy kiddie sized 440ml cans instead of the proper adult sized ones? Haven't noticed any of them being lower priced than comparable offerings from other breweries in 500ml bottles.

Buy the 500ml bottles.

kenmc

VeVeX wrote: »

Buy the 500ml bottles.

Brilliant solution. Wish I'd thought of that. So then, please tell me where stocks 500ml bottle of trouble brewing bright eyes, or Galway hooker seafarer series?

BeerNut

kenmc wrote: »

why are they all pushing poxy kiddie sized 440ml cans instead of the proper adult sized ones?

They started it because it's fashionable -- it makes them look like Trillium or The Alchemist or Treehouse: beer that the kiddies think will make them cool. Lough Gill were the first to notice the trend in the US and bring it to Ireland.

They're going to keep doing it because they can charge the same or more than for a 500ml bottle and thereby make more money from the same amount of beer.

killbillvol2

Metalman use 330 ml cans. I'm drinking one now.

bobbyy gee

it saves money they can use less product and cans to make are cheaper

lots of products reduce size to keep same price
but rmthey probably only save 1-2 cents

Guinness learned this trick in America were pints are smaller

kenmc

Personally I just tend to bypass these "not proper sized cans" in favour of 500ml bottles of something else, unless it's something I really really want to try, and even then I am very reluctant to do so.

Wish more people would do likewise and put an end to this stupid fad. At least 500ml almost fills a pint glass, but 440ml, the thing is half empty.

Beanstalk

I always thought it had something to do with selling in the UK market? as most cans in UK at 440ml?

Hodors Appletart

kenmc wrote: »

Personally I just tend to bypass these "not proper sized cans" in favour of 500ml bottles of something else, unless it's something I really really want to try, and even then I am very reluctant to do so.

Wish more people would do likewise and put an end to this stupid fad. At least 500ml almost fills a pint glass, but 440ml, the thing is half empty.

not enough people seem as triggered by at you seem to be, so I doubt you'll get anything like a critical mass for your proposed boycott strategy.

HBC08

bobbyy gee wrote: »

it saves money they can use less product and cans to make are cheaper

lots of products reduce size to keep same price
but rmthey probably only save 1-2 cents

Guinness learned this trick in America were pints are smaller

Pints are smaller in the US?
A pint is a pint 568ml,a mug,cup,glass of beer smaller than that is not a pint.

Hodors Appletart

HBC08 wrote: »

Pints are smaller in the US?
A pint is a pint 568ml,

have you never heard of a US pint?

GLaDOS

Better 440 ml than 330 ml tbh. I'l take a 500 ml bottle most of the time but sometimes cans are handier.

HBC08

Hodors Appletart wrote: »

have you never heard of a US pint?

No,ive ordered plenty of beers in the US though.

Effects

HBC08 wrote: »

Pints are smaller in the US?
A pint is a pint 568ml,a mug,cup,glass of beer smaller than that is not a pint.

A pint in the US is 473ml.

Macy0161

BeerNut wrote: »

They started it because it's fashionable -- it makes them look like Trillium or The Alchemist or Treehouse: beer that the kiddies think will make them cool. Lough Gill were the first to notice the trend in the US and bring it to Ireland.

They're going to keep doing it because they can charge the same or more than for a 500ml bottle and thereby make more money from the same amount of beer.

While I do think there's an element of fashion, I thought it was more to do with supply? They're just going with the easiest/ cheapest supply routes, and the same with the canning lines, particularly the mobile ones?

440ml is one of the UK standard sizes.

I've been on several craft brewery beer tours pre-covid where they've claimed they moved because it keeps better than bottles, and environmentally better. Since COVID, the move has accelerated due to on-line sales.

Personally, I've got over it now. I'm more inclined to look at cans, as their easier to store. My only pain point is can conditioned beers. And 330ml cans, especially as I share a lot of beers - I really haven't had as much White Hag (for example) as the smaller cans put me off.

HBC08

Effects wrote: »

A pint in the US is 473ml.

I genuinely never knew that,thanks.
I spent a year living in the states and a lot of that time was spent in bars and never heard anyone ask for a pint.I wasnt in a place where there were any Irish bars though so maybe that was it.

irish_goat

HBC08 wrote: »

I genuinely never knew that,thanks.
I spent a year living in the states and a lot of that time was spent in bars and never heard anyone ask for a pint.I wasnt in a place where there were any Irish bars though so maybe that was it.

Not sure if it still happens but there was a time a few pubs in Dublin had American sized Sierra Nevada and Founders pint glasses and would serve "a pint" in these.

Hodors Appletart

irish_goat wrote: »

Not sure if it still happens but there was a time a few pubs in Dublin had American sized Sierra Nevada and Founders pint glasses and would serve "a pint" in these.

yeah the bastards

the beer revolu

I really don't get the fixation with specific container size.
250ml, 330ml, 341ml, 375ml, 440ml, 500ml, 568ml,600ml, 750ml are all fairly common can/bottle sizes.
Why have people fixated on 500ml being the "proper" size?

kenmc

the beer revolu wrote: »

I really don't get the fixation with specific container size.
250ml, 330ml, 341ml, 375ml, 440ml, 500ml, 568ml,600ml, 750ml are all fairly common can/bottle sizes.
Why have people fixated on 500ml being the "proper" size?

500ml, in Europe at least, would appear to be the default measure of large beer container (e.g the plethora of German breweries producing weissbeer), and 330ml likewise the default measure of smaller beer container (Belgians)

The odd sizes you listed appear to be mostly antipodean or American volumes. 750ml would be a "sharing bottle" of Belgian typically.

I don't ever remember a "normal big bottle" of wine coming in anything not 750ml.

I've no issue with cans themselves, just the fad for smaller sizes at standard sized prices

killbillvol2

kenmc wrote: »

500ml, in Europe at least, would appear to be the default measure of large beer container (e.g the plethora of German breweries producing weissbeer), and 330ml likewise the default measure of smaller beer container (Belgians)

The odd sizes you listed appear to be mostly antipodean or American volumes. 750ml would be a "sharing bottle" of Belgian typically.

I don't ever remember a "normal big bottle" of wine coming in anything not 750ml.

I've no issue with cans themselves, just the fad for smaller sizes at standard sized prices

So you expect craft breweries to sell at the same price as Heineken etc.?

You should stick to Dutch Gold.

Effects

the beer revolu wrote: »

Why have people fixated on 500ml being the "proper" size?

Cause that's the size cans people were drinking long before the craft beer influx.

Effects

killbillvol2 wrote: »

So you expect craft breweries to sell at the same price as Heineken etc.?

I'd imagine he wants the same size can, 500ml, at the price they charge for 440ml cans.

Thelonious Monk

I hate 440s. I thought maybe they get cheap cans from the UK where 440 is a size you see more often, and save on the amount of beer they're giving you too. I refuse to buy them.

BeerNut

Beanstalk wrote: »

I always thought it had something to do with selling in the UK market? as most cans in UK at 440ml?

UK craft brewing adopted the 440ml can in recent years again because they're copying the Americans. I can't think of any UK microbrewery that used 440ml cans before this.

Macy0161 wrote: »

While I do think there's an element of fashion, I thought it was more to do with supply?

In that they use 440s rather than 473, which would be harder to get. But before 473 cans became fashionable, microbreweries in the UK and Ireland who canned, canned in 330s -- Metalman and Rascals being the early adopters of canning.

Strumms

the beer revolu wrote: »

I really don't get the fixation with specific container size.
250ml, 330ml, 341ml, 375ml, 440ml, 500ml, 568ml,600ml, 750ml are all fairly common can/bottle sizes.
Why have people fixated on 500ml being the "proper" size?

Value for money thing too..

Like as an aside Tesco were or are doing 4 bottles of 660ml Peroni for 10 euros.

That’s a seriously good quality delicious beer. About four and a half pints for a tenner.

CelticRambler

HBC08 wrote: »

A pint is a pint 568ml,a mug,cup,glass of beer smaller than that is not a pint.

A pint in France (une pinte) is 952ml, equal to two chopines, half of which ("un demi" or 250ml) is the standard serving of beer or cider at any French bar.

Hurrache

I usually buy cans over the bottles, mainly because I don't live near a bottle bank so it's a pain in the ass to save them for a once a month journey or so, whereas the cans can go straight into recycling.

kenmc

killbillvol2 wrote: »

So you expect craft breweries to sell at the same price as Heineken etc.?

You should stick to Dutch Gold.

Absolutely not. But there's nothing wrong with 500ml bottles or cans. The issue is 440ml at the price of 500ml. An example.
4x440ml cans of porterhouse for the same price as 4x500ml O'Hara's in SuperValu. I'll take O'Hara's thanks, though I do like pH red, I won't buy it.

killbillvol2

kenmc wrote: »

Absolutely not. But there's nothing wrong with 500ml bottles or cans. The issue is 440ml at the price of 500ml. An example.
4x440ml cans of porterhouse for the same price as 4x500ml O'Hara's in SuperValu. I'll take O'Hara's thanks, though I do like pH red, I won't buy it.

But they're different beers? Why should they be the same price?

Macy0161

BeerNut wrote: »

In that they use 440s rather than 473, which would be harder to get. But before 473 cans became fashionable, microbreweries in the UK and Ireland who canned, canned in 330s -- Metalman and Rascals being the early adopters of canning.

More that if those are the canning lines and cans they can get, or are readily (and most cheaply) available.

500ml down to 440ml did initially irritate me (a search on here would probably find me giving out!), but I've got over 60ml difference. They've kinda got away with it as craft drinkers probably aren't as price focused as others.

But still, if I'm doing 3 or 4 for €10 or €12 at the off licence/ online I'm still more likely to go 440 over 330. I definitely haven't drank as much of the likes of metalman, rascals, white hag that are predominantly 330ml, despite generally enjoying their beers when they turn up in beer boxes.

the beer revolu

Effects wrote: »

Cause that's the size cans people were drinking long before the craft beer influx.

So?
Before that they drank pints and flagons and quarts and what not.
Things change.

Also, I remember drinking 250ml bottles in the 90s. And half pint bottles were standard for a long time.

irish_goat

I'm not too fussed about the 60ml difference between a 500ml bottle and 440ml can but if a brewery is putting their standard range into 330ml cans they need to be pretty exceptional for me to buy them over a 440ml/500ml unless the price per litre is similar.

Annoys me that the likes of White Hag put Little Fawn in 330mls but put their milkshake IPA in 440mls. Should be the other way round at the very least.

TheUnderfaker

The last 100ml out of a 500ml can is rank

kenmc

killbillvol2 wrote: »

But they're different beers? Why should they be the same price?

Lots of breweries manage to produce different beers in 500ml containers and sell it at the same price. The fact that it's a different beer has little bearing on it. Craft beer is already a premium product at a premium price, which I'm willing to pay, generally speaking. However even at that, theres a fundamental value for money equation which must be taken into consideration.

There's a 12% difference in what I consider to be an "everyday beer", e.g. O'Hara's IPA (or fixes rock, or bru ri, or journeyman or galway hooker or mcgargles) Vs 8degrees session IPA. All 2 for 4.92 currently on SuperValu website, 1litre Vs 880ml.

Anyway. Is what it is. Point being that 500ml cans were all that was available, generally speaking, in cans until recently, so wanted to know why the craft breweries, despite producing 500ml bottles happily enough have downsized to a more unusual size, which I would imagine would not be any cheaper to buy empty than 500ml due to being more niche (all the macro breweries using 500ml as standard, so should be ubiquitous thus cheaper to source than 440ml).

kenmc

TheUnderfaker wrote: »

The last 100ml out of a 500ml can is rank

Drink that first so

Strumms

TheUnderfaker wrote: »

The last 100ml out of a 500ml can is rank

Totally, why I always pour into a glass, absolutely hate drinking out of cans this being one reason...

Macy0161

kenmc wrote: »

There's a 12% difference in what I consider to be an "everyday beer", e.g. O'Hara's IPA (or fixes rock, or bru ri, or journeyman or galway hooker or mcgargles) Vs 8degrees session IPA. All 2 for 4.92 currently on SuperValu website, 1litre Vs 880ml.

I think there'd be some debate as to whether Alltech/ Stationworks are craft. And 8 Degrees, actually (multinational owned). But regardless O'Hara's/ Rye River/ Stationworks are much bigger operations than a lot of craft breweries, and are producing bottles for supermarkets that probably ties them into those lines to some degree.

kenmc wrote: »

Anyway. Is what it is. Point being that 500ml cans were all that was available, generally speaking, in cans until recently, so wanted to know why the craft breweries, despite producing 500ml bottles happily enough have downsized to a more unusual size, which I would imagine would not be any cheaper to buy empty than 500ml due to being more niche (all the macro breweries using 500ml as standard, so should be ubiquitous thus cheaper to source than 440ml).

I don't really recall any 500ml Irish craft cans? But I wouldn't be so sure it's that easy to source, or cheaper, entirely because the commercials use them. 500ml canning lines can't be that easy to come by either, given that there was a thread about Smithwicks/ Kilkenny cans, and Diagio having to focus their own canning lines on bigger sellers.

It's actually a handy marketing differentiation - helps stop people being fooled into look like craft commercial beers to? I know if I saw a 500ml "craft" can I'd be checking before buying (and I actually did on the Pyynikin that was in the lidl "craft" imports (I think they are, unlike Steamboat)).

Mellor

Craft beer here tend to be 330ml cans. Most cans are that size. Main commercial beers tend to be 330-375ml bottles.

Can’t remember seeing 500ml is anything other than cheap slop. Exception being Guinness/Kilkenny that’s as it’s imported.

irish_goat

Mellor wrote: »

Craft beer here tend to be 330ml cans. Most cans are that size. Main commercial beers tend to be 330-375ml bottles.

Can’t remember seeing 500ml is anything other than cheap slop. Exception being Guinness/Kilkenny that’s as it’s imported.

Are you based somewhere warm?

feargale

I'm sorry that breweries have stopped marketing the half pint/250ml bottle. We should have that option rather than have them prodding us to drink more than we want or need.

loyatemu

feargale wrote: »

I'm sorry that breweries have stopped marketing the half pint/250ml bottle. We should have that option rather than have them prodding us to drink more than we want or need.

Aldi Brasserie - 10x250ml stubbies for a fiver!

ELM327

HBC08 wrote: »

Pints are smaller in the US?
A pint is a pint 568ml,a mug,cup,glass of beer smaller than that is not a pint.

A UK pint is 568ml as its based off UK gallons.
A US Pint is about 375ml from memory as it's based off US gallons


UK gallon is ~4.45 litres, US gallon is ~3.7. The respective pint is a ratio of the gallon.

Jim Root

small cans less conspicuous sipping away at a desk while WFH...lol

BeerNut

kenmc wrote: »

Point being that 500ml cans were all that was available, generally speaking, in cans until recently

See-through IPAs used to be the only kind as well. As far as I can see, everything went wrong when I stopped being a young person.

kenmc

BeerNut wrote: »

See-through IPAs used to be the only kind as well. As far as I can see, everything went wrong when I stopped being a young person.

I'm ok with cloudy IPA, as long as they're 500ml

imme

I think it's a scam

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=110639843

Effects

the beer revolu wrote: »

So?
Before that they drank pints and flagons and quarts and what not.
Things change.

Also, I remember drinking 250ml bottles in the 90s. And half pint bottles were standard for a long time.

Yeah, things change, and they usually get compared to what came immediately before them.

Just because you can remember what drink sizes were 30 years doesn't really matter to someone who remembers what they were two years ago.

feargale

loyatemu wrote: »

Aldi Brasserie - 10x250ml stubbies for a fiver!

Fine if you're having it at home. Hopefully a time will come again when we don't have to.

sabat

More importantly, why can't you get these here?

https://www.danmurphys.com.au/product/DM_705890/asahi-super-dry-can-2l

I actually like Asahi as a solid all-round lager and I'd definitely keep some of these in the gaff, even just for parties.

beachhead

Just to upset all the the purists.Bulmers have reduced their can size to 440ml but not the price(retail price,that is).Correct about the US pint measure.The US mile is also,shorter than the Imperial mile