Can civil service cancel parental leave with no notice?

missy_t

As a bit of background, I work in quite a busy civil service office. I take Parental Leave every Monday to stay at home with my toddler. Other half is a secondary teacher, so is not flexible when it comes to taking time off. I very rarely take sick leave - before this week I had taken 3 days in 5 years and needed to take another 2 this week. I don't take the p*ss.

I had to get tested for COVID this week as I have a new cough and got my negative result today. Texted my manager to tell them who replied saying I HAVE to come into work tomorrow for the full day as there is a meeting on Tuesday at 10 and files need to be prepared. Preparing the files would take less than an hour, but I live an hours drive each way from work and literally have no one who could look after the toddler. I called a workmate who said they could prepare the files for me no problem.

Replied to manager saying I couldn't come in as I am on Parental Leave and also that colleague can do it. Received a very passive aggressive message back saying that other staff had to cover for me when I was off (I often cover for staff on sick leave) and that I shouldn't be offloading work onto others. Was also told I will HAVE to come into work very early on Tuesday to get the files sorted. I was planning on coming into work early anyway to catch up but it was absolutely demanded of me. Also got told not to forget to bring my cert (was nearly insinuating that I was faking??)

Just wanted to check that I was within my rights to say no to cancelling my Parental leave with less than 24 hours notice? I'm worried there'll be repercussions.

Samuel T. Cogley

A sixth day in five years would be my reaction.

Sorry I dont know the legal answer but practically speaking its completely unreasonable.

Love2love

Nope - he cannot simply cancel it providing the leave has been applied for and agreed using the proper procedure.

https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/publications_forms/guide_to_the_parental_leave_acts.pdf

antix80

If I were you, I'd give the manager the sick cert and at the same meeting (perhaps remind him the time off was company policy/government policy) , remind the manager that you have parental leave on Mondays and you feel his tone has been disrespecful and request for you to cancel the leave unreasonable. Note his response but don't get drawn into an argument. Just say something like "thank you for your feedback"

When you leave the meeting draft an email reiterating the time of the meeting, your conversation with him - and his response. You may provide a retort to his response if required at this stage.

And then you can be certain he'll never pressure you to cancel your parental leave again.

beauf

I think I would be asking HR all these questions, and the Union.

At the same I wouldn't antagonize the manager.

rostalof

Short answer, your manager can't cancel your leave. On the administrative side of things, it can't be done. Peoplepoint need at least 6 weeks notice to cancel parental leave, so it can't possibly be cancelled at this stage.

However you deal with the situation, make sure it's all documented in emails, as advised earlier in the thread. I'd also takes screenshots of the passive/agressive/bullying texts that have already been sent to you and make sure to save those messages.

martingriff

missy_t wrote: »

As a bit of background, I work in quite a busy civil service office. I take Parental Leave every Monday to stay at home with my toddler. Other half is a secondary teacher, so is not flexible when it comes to taking time off. I very rarely take sick leave - before this week I had taken 3 days in 5 years and needed to take another 2 this week. I don't take the p*ss.

I had to get tested for COVID this week as I have a new cough and got my negative result today. Texted my manager to tell them who replied saying I HAVE to come into work tomorrow for the full day as there is a meeting on Tuesday at 10 and files need to be prepared. Preparing the files would take less than an hour, but I live an hours drive each way from work and literally have no one who could look after the toddler. I called a workmate who said they could prepare the files for me no problem.

Replied to manager saying I couldn't come in as I am on Parental Leave and also that colleague can do it. Received a very passive aggressive message back saying that other staff had to cover for me when I was off (I often cover for staff on sick leave) and that I shouldn't be offloading work onto others. Was also told I will HAVE to come into work very early on Tuesday to get the files sorted. I was planning on coming into work early anyway to catch up but it was absolutely demanded of me. Also got told not to forget to bring my cert (was nearly insinuating that I was faking??)

Just wanted to check that I was within my rights to say no to cancelling my Parental leave with less than 24 hours notice? I'm worried there'll be repercussions.

You need a cert? I am not a teacher but in my Department no they can not cancel without your say so

antix80

martingriff wrote: »

You need a cert? I am not a teacher but in my Department no they can not cancel without your say so

Interesting point (about the cert)

You'll need to find out if it's considered sick leave or some sort of paid covid leave.

Usually for sick leave it only needs to be certified on day 3. So I'd spite him and self-certify.

Unless it's policy I would not be providing the guy with a cert for self-isolating.

beauf

Thing about that is if it's uncertified sick leave the limits for that are far lower. Do you really want to do that?

There's a govt doc about leave during covid and it seems to suggest you should be asked to work from home if you can't do your normal duties they have to find something for you to do.

Hard to look up on your mobile...

Augme

Shouldnt sick leave cert be sent to PeoplePoint? I am not sure you need to show it to your manager.

rostalof

Augme wrote: »

Should sick leave certs be sent to PeoplePoint? I am not sure you need to show it to your manager.

You're correct, you send them to PeoplePoint. You can send them in pdf format if you wish.

Cakerbaker

Something sounds odd with your manager and his work planning tbh. Firstly he shouldn’t plan work for you on a day you’re not supposed to be in the office.

Secondly, you were waiting on the results of a Covid test which was received on a Sunday. There was a chance that a) you wouldn’t have received the result until Monday so wouldn’t have been in (if you did work Monday’s), or b) you could have received a positive result and wouldn’t have been able to go in until you’d recovered.

Going forward I wouldn’t text him at weekends for work related issues unless there’s something very significant going on in work that only you can do. And seeing as you’re not due in on mondays anyway texting him on a Monday about that week should be fine as he shouldn’t be expecting you in that day anyway.

LeBash

I think a lot of the advice is childish here.

No he/she can't cancel your parental leave.

Go in early Tuesday, get your bit done as soon as possible. Drop it to him/her, have a civil conversation.

Your manager is probably frustrated that at the very time he/she needs a reliable staff member, you weren't available. They are probably being put under pressure themselves about what ever meeting it is.

Keep note of some of what was said but things like bringing in unions and spiteful documented emails will set both parties off on the wrong foot and im fairly sure it will be uncomfortable for at least a few weeks if you do that.

Walk in explain in a calm manner, not snotty, the parental leave, the days for a covid test and that you were pretty surprised about the messages as you've taken very little time off over the past few years. You'll probably get an apology and an explanation of what was happening on the day that set it off.

missy_t

Thank you all for your replies. It really helps to hear the opinions of others.

To clarify the meeting on Tuesday isn't a big deal at all. Similar ones take place 2/3 times per week as it's the main role of our job. Everyone is trained to be able to sit in on them and the manager isn't present/doesn't need to hear about outcomes etc as long as there are no problems.

Our workplace isn't a great environment and there and management really don't like granting us any sort of leave so I'm very worried this will be brought up again when I apply to extend my Parental Leave in the new year. I'm fully expecting a passive aggressive email about team work and flexibility to be waiting for me in the morning.

I think I will contact my Union as I have a few issues that I want to enquire about. For example at the minute we are not using the flexi-clock (although we should be as all staff back in office). Due to the nature of our work we have to work 2-3 hours per week over our allotted times but have been told from this week on we will not receive time off in lieu or any sort of overtime payment.

Samuel T. Cogley

Are you sure you're in the civil service?

Union will have a field day with the last point.

TrixIrl

As per last DPER circular, Flexi is back from 24th August

missy_t

TrixIrl wrote: »

As per last DPER circular, Flexi is back from 24th August

Apparently our Department is not included yet. We work in a relatively rural location so all staff are back. However in larger urban locations e.g, Dublin some staff are still working from home. Therefore, according to an email from managers last week we aren't able to go back onto flexi-time until the Department country wide is back?? They're talking about after Christmas. Also being told I'm rostered to stay in until from 9-5.30 every Friday even though offically we should only be working 7 hours on a Friday (and can't take this 30mins off anywhere else in the week)

Causing me huge issues with creche drop offs and pick ups but no flexibility being offered!

antix80

missy_t wrote: »

Also being told I'm rostered to stay in until from 9-5.30 every Friday even though offically we should only be working 7 hours on a Friday (and can't take this 30mins off anywhere else in the week)

You can work 7 hours between 9 and 5.30 on Friday.. just means a longer lunch.

I know, not ideal but best you can do is check your contract and talk to your union. Don't work for free.

TrixIrl

antix80 wrote: »

You can work 7 hours between 9 and 5.30 on Friday.. just means a longer lunch.

I know, not ideal but best you can do is check your contract and talk to your union. Don't work for free.

Agree- definite talk to your union on this one. At least if you had an agreement for TOIL etc if you're working extra it might help...or make them more aware of the ask.

rostalof

missy_t wrote: »

Apparently our Department is not included yet. We work in a relatively rural location so all staff are back. However in larger urban locations e.g, Dublin some staff are still working from home. Therefore, according to an email from managers last week we aren't able to go back onto flexi-time until the Department country wide is back?? They're talking about after Christmas. Also being told I'm rostered to stay in until from 9-5.30 every Friday even though offically we should only be working 7 hours on a Friday (and can't take this 30mins off anywhere else in the week)

Causing me huge issues with creche drop offs and pick ups but no flexibility being offered!

You need to speak to your union rep asap. The management there sound atrocious. That's complete rubbish they're speaking. In our department, flexi is reinstated for office based staff from next Monday. It's still suspended for remote workers because DPER won't allow it so far, until a proper remote working agreement is reached. That's another trainwreck coming down the line but that's for another day. They can't force you to work extra hours without giving you time in lieu or suitable overtime rates of pay.

https://www.forsa.ie/flexitime-returns-following-forsa-pressure/#:~:text=Normal%20flexitime%20arrangements%20for%20civil,organisation's%20next%20viable%20flexi%20period

missy_t

Have arrived into work to an email entitled Welcome Back with a list of work that I genuinely haven't had a second to look at in the past two weeks. Email says I can now be marked as underperforming in my yearly review. I

Samuel T. Cogley

missy_t wrote: »

Have arrived into work to an email entitled Welcome Back with a list of work that I genuinely haven't had a second to look at in the past two weeks. Email says I can now be marked as underperforming in my yearly review. I

Union.

Manager sounds like a complete child.

TrixIrl

TrixIrl wrote: »

As per last DPER circular, Flexi is back from 24th August

Flexi is back for those who have returned to office based working.

It does not apply to anyone still working from home, and they cannot accrue flexi hours.

OP, you should be back on the clock, if you're back in the office.

If you're a rural office, have any circulars on flexi in local offices been issued by your parent department?

They do have the authority to suspend flexi in their own locations. (I worked in one where there was no flexi).

Go straight to head office for clarification on the flexi issue.

antix80

missy_t wrote: »

Have arrived into work to an email entitled Welcome Back with a list of work that I genuinely haven't had a second to look at in the past two weeks. Email says I can now be marked as underperforming in my yearly review. I

Go straight to the union.

It's bullying and harassment. Go after your manager's jugular.. him personally. Make sure he gets a written warning at the very least.

You can use his texts and emails against him. Also that stack of work he lumbered you with - use that an example of him overloading you with work with impossible deadlines - it will show what an incompetent hack he is.

If you need a mental health day, take one.

Regarding the "underperformance" are these tasks hes saying you're not doing listed specifically in your role profile form?

If not, they can't be used against you like that.

Make sure at your next goal setting, that nothing vague is added in there such as "additonal tasks as required" for him to hang you with. If it is, ask for it to be removed.

In my experience, managers who behave like this, 9 times out of 10 are usually masking their own underperformance by blaming it on their staff.

BrianD3

A lot of posters are mentioning the union. Do those making the union suggestion work in the civil or public service? Some unions that represent office staff are passive and toothless and do not want to get involved in what would be regarded by some as a "petty" disagreement over parental leave.

Also, given the number of poor managers about, similar issues are probably happening to other staff on a daily basis.

Basically, in terms of unions, things are not necessarily as they are portrayed in the media. Not every union is militant and ready to get stuck in on behalf of its members. The stories we hear about train drivers and other semi state workers refusing do x, y and z unless they get more money are not reflective of the wider public sector.

As for the manager in this case - sounds like your average idiot who is not capable of doing his job. He has probably been pressured from above and/or is frustrated about sick leave. Now he has lost his composure and is firing out bullsh*t in various directions and trying to find something to use to "get at" the OP. Except he's doing this from a position of ignorance, not having thought through what he's doing, targeting the parental leave without knowing that he can't just demand it be cancelled. Probably hasn't a clue what constitutes bullying either.

beauf

I've no love for unions, managed to avoid them most of my working life. My experience, is they generally have their own interests at heart not the members. Though you do get selfless individuals working in Unions.

But a union will give you basic protection, and force issues to the open and to the table when someone is trying it on. Things have to be done by the book. That said anything can be manipulated.

antix80

beauf wrote: »

But a union will give you basic protection, and force issues to the open and to the table when someone is trying it on. Things have to be done by the book. That said anything can be manipulated.

It's not as much the union as the battleaxe union rep that will sit in on meetings and turn the pressure on the manager up to 11. Not every place has one, but if yours does, op, let him at it and enjoy the fireworks.

You're in the civil service so your job is safe. I'd be suggesting not being so useful that this manager is over reliant on you as the more you give him the more he'll expect - why manage a team when he can just put a lot of pressure on one person to not get sick, not take parental leave, come in earlier than their shift starts, force to work late on Friday.... These are boundaries you need to set.

beauf

This is how situations like this arise..

https://youtu.be/3wqQXu13tLA

missy_t

I replied stating why I hadn't the work done (genuine valid reasons) to get a reply saying I will be marked as underperforming as I didn't reply to a previous email. I will be contacting the union but from what I've heard they're not great. I'm worried about getting a poor performance score as it can delay my increment and also upset my chances at getting promotions/transfers.

Thank you all for your help. Just feel so upset

I agree with BrianD3, and would absolutely avoid going straight to the union here. (Over 20 years civil servant) as that will most likely have the immediate effect of throwing petrol on a bombfire. The union should be a last resort.

Navigating an unreasonable boss is a skill in itself. For some reason I think this guy has taken some kind of issue with you. Was there any problems between you before this week? I would also be fairly confident if you become antagonistic with him now, he would take it out on you by refusing to extend your parental leave in the New Year.

(Remember, management always side with management and in any dispute he will get to give his version of events first).

There is fault on both sides here and in fairness, and 80% of it is on his side.

(1) He should know that parental leave cannot be cancelled without notice. (It can be cancelled, but not without following the correct procedures)

(2) If he is your direct line manager he should have been fully aware already that you do not work Mondays.

(3) You made an error by texting him on a Sunday. If you hadn't he would have realised on Monday that he needed to organise someone else to do the work for Tuesday and you wouldn't have been involved. You should have text your result next working day.

(4) He probably thinks you overstepped by taking the issue over the files out of his hands and organising someone else yourself to do the work, and then telling him about it.

(5) Re the "cert" thing - I am not sure, but I think there was something specific in the DPER rules about informing line managers of Covid tests? I would need to check.

In your situation, what I would do, is ask him for a sit down and clear the air discussion. Bring someone with you, if you wish. That should pre-empt any need to involve the union.

I would not take the threat of underperformance lightly, but if he does attempt to do this you still have the right to have it further reviewed by the next up the ladder.

beauf

The joys of office policies in the public sector.

kathleen37

beauf wrote: »

The joys of office policies in the public sector.

Not only the public sector. There are complete tools everywhere...

Str8outtaWuhan

first mistake is turning on your phone before your workday begins

I wouldn't even entertain nonsense like this. It's parental leave. It's untouchable.

kathleen37

Deleted User wrote: »

In your situation, what I would do, is ask him for a sit down and clear the air discussion. Bring someone with you, if you wish. That should pre-empt any need to involve the union.

I would not take the threat of underperformance lightly, but if he does attempt to do this you still have the right to have it further reviewed by the next up the ladder.

This is good advice. You can say "Is it ok if we have a chat? I'll send you an invite"

Then take in a bullet point list with you, detailed along the lines as above. For your use, no need for handouts.

Start along the lines of,

"I'm a bit concerned about what happened over the weekend. I just wanted to make sure that I understand the process for parental leave properly" YOU obvs understand, but you need to stroke the fluff here a bit first off.

State your understanding, and say is that your understanding? If they say not, then just say - ok, I can check that out and get back to you.

You want to do what you can to keep this "chat" chummy if you can.

You can say that you're really concerned about the comments regarding under-performance - can they explain more what they meant? You will need to have examples of how you've been either meeting targets/performance measures and ideally exceeding them. Ask for examples of how you can do things better if need be.

After the meeting, and this is important, email along the lines of;

"Thanks for speaking with me earlier. I'd just wanted to confirm that we discussed/agreed the following/I was going to check out ******" I really appreciate your help"

The reason for the email is so you have in writing what was discussed and agreed. Even if they don't reply, you can prove the meeting happened. If they have an issue over what was discussed, then they would reply to the email. At least that way it takes it away from the "he said this/take" etc.

This is just an idea of the sort of stuff you can consider doing/saying.

The advice above about flaming a fire is very true. He's obviously completely wrong, but will pointing that out (at this point) help you get what you want?

I do hope you get sorted.

Take care

beauf

kathleen37 wrote: »

Not only the public sector. There are complete tools everywhere...

A poor review can have longer repercussions in civil/ public service than the private sector. So its nastier then it might seem to those not used to it.

antix80

LeBash wrote: »

I think a lot of the advice is childish here.

-Snip

Keep note of some of what was said but things like bringing in unions and spiteful documented emails will set both parties off on the wrong foot and im fairly sure it will be uncomfortable for at least a few weeks if you do that.

-Snip

You'll probably get an apology and an explanation of what was happening on the day that set it off.

My advice wasn't childish. You just misread the situation.

HildaOgdenx

missy_t wrote: »

I replied stating why I hadn't the work done (genuine valid reasons) to get a reply saying I will be marked as underperforming as I didn't reply to a previous email. I will be contacting the union but from what I've heard they're not great. I'm worried about getting a poor performance score as it can delay my increment and also upset my chances at getting promotions/transfers.

Thank you all for your help. Just feel so upset

I'm not in the public service but, surely that's not enough of a reason to get a poor performance score? Based on one email not being replied to?

As some others have advised , I would be slow to involve the union. Maybe an off the record chat, if that's doable, and if they are good at what they do. You have mentioned that this may not be the case.

I would read up on performance appraisals, and how they are supposed to work. Especially in relation to underperformance.

He may well have shot himself in the foot there.

missy_t

missy_t wrote: »

Have arrived into work to an email entitled Welcome Back with a list of work that I genuinely haven't had a second to look at in the past two weeks. Email says I can now be marked as underperforming in my yearly review. I

missy_t wrote: »

I replied stating why I hadn't the work done (genuine valid reasons) to get a reply saying I will be marked as underperforming as I didn't reply to a previous email.

It would take more then one un-answered email or unfinished task to merit an underperformance score, and if one is given, it can be reviewed and overturned by the next up the ladder.

It really depends on if these were assigned tasks and targets that not being met, and if not, why not. Under PMDS, a Role Profile and goal setting is supposed to be completed in January every year, reviewed mid-year, and then Annual Review at the end of the year.

The OP does mention some work not being completed "for genuine, valid reasons" - but we don't know if this is a once off, possibly covid/wfh related or otherwise. What the OP considers a genuine, valid reason, the supervisor may not.

I think there may be a bit more here then meets the eye.

beauf

Supposed to be completed...

The PMDS can be misused just like any other system and often is.

beauf

beauf wrote: »

Supposed to be completed...

The PMDS can be misused just like any other system and often is.

Absolutely true. But it is the framework we are stuck working within.

The OP mentions two weeks worth of tasks that they say they didn't have a chance to look at. That is going to be an issue for any manager.

I already asked if they were tasks assigned in their role profile form, or extra tasks that fell to the OP. If the latter, they cant be used against her to score her as unperforming.

If they are part of their role profile, then the reason why these tasks are not being completed needs to be addressed between the OP and her manager now to prevent a score of underperforming which the manager is now flagging.

II'm not saying its not genuine - its most likely covid / wfh etc related, this has been a bad year for everyone! But now is the time to sit down and address it, before the formal Annual Review meeting roles around in December.

If addressed now, an underperformance score can be avoided.

beauf

If you have a long standing (documented) resourcing issue your not going to solve it by bullying someone about their PMDS and threating to ruin their career potentially.

If you have a long documented history of someone not completing their work. You wouldn't need to ambush them with PMDS over some minor thing, over a couple of weeks. You'd have a litany of issues going back a long time.

We don't know that there is a resourcing issue?

If someone is underperforming then flagging it to them in advance is not bullying, and one negative annual review will not potentially "ruin someones career". There is a procedure in place to have such feedback reviewed by a more senior officer and overturned, if genuinely unwarranted.

I agree the supervisor could be handling it better. Reading between the lines they sound frustrated with the OP. I've asked if the work left untouched for two weeks was part of their role profile, but no more details have been forthcoming, so no point speculating further.

The OPs initial query about parental leave has been answered, they've been back in work since, yet they haven't updated or returned to the thread since.

I hope they have had a sit down chat and sorted it out.

bureau2009

Don't hesitate to use your union.

When your weekly/monthly subscriptions are totalled up over the years you are paying them large sums of money.

beauf

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We don't know that there is a resourcing issue? ....

There is no other reason other than spite to drag someone into the office when they are on official leave that day. Considering they had arranged cover for the work anyway.

beauf

bureau2009 wrote: »

Don't hesitate to use your union.

When your weekly/monthly subscriptions are totalled up over the years you are paying them large sums of money.

I don't get the fear of using a union. They generally take a back seat unless it's a bigger issue involving significant numbers of members. It's a gentle reminder to someone who is stepping over their remit. Getting the Union to actually do something is usually the problem.

beauf

beauf wrote: »

There is no other reason other than spite to drag someone into the office when they are on official leave that day. Considering they had arranged cover for the work anyway.

They arranged cover after the fact, and over the managers head - which also sounds like it was not a good idea. Some managers would be okay with that, other's wouldn't. This one clearly wasn't.

There is no doubt that the manager was at fault for asking the OP come in on a parental leave day. No argument there.

But I think the whole thing is part of a bigger picture and we are only getting a few pixels.

If the OP is indeed underperforming and her supervisor can back this up, then she be the one shooting herself in the foot by involving the union.

beauf

The inference here is the OP is underperforming, causing lots of problems, if you use a union you will be punished for it. The manager is mostly doing everything right.

Quite the 180 from original question and hardly encouraging for anyone to start a thread.

On the contrary. I actually already said the supervisor is 80% wrong in how they handled the parental leave question.

But I'm also trying to help the OP avoid a negative review by giving them a steer because it looks like their supervisor is gearing up for that. The fact that they formally recorded it in an email is not a good sign.

You'd be amazed the amount of people who are under the impression they performing really well at their job but in reality could do a lot better. I'm not saying this is the case in the case of the OP, but sometimes having your eyes opened to what could be potentially used against you, does no harm.

For instance, two weeks of work not looked at is not good. If work is not getting done for any reason, it should be flagged to the supervisor as a potential problem BEFORE it becomes an actual problem. Then it becomes their problem, and your ass is covered.

Augme

The chances of the negative performance review going through are very unlikely. If they do push it OP don't be afraid to fight back with a bullying claim. Ultimately you hold a much stronger position than your manager does and that's the most important thing.

Be conscious of avoiding to risk tipping the balance back in his favour though.