How come we never developed the same problems with class as they do in the UK?

steddyeddy

I've just left the UK having spent the last five years split between there and the US. I'll be living in Germany and Austria now for the next few years.

While in the UK I've worked with people from Oxford and Cambridge ect and it's evident there's a very strong class system in place in the UK. For example 7% of all UK pupils attend private schools yet 42% of Oxbridge places go to private school pupils.

Besides that there's the more obvious landed gentry and nobility class. I was scolded when I referred to the paedophile's friend, Prince Andrew as Andrew Windsor rather than the prince version.

I'm not saying there's no class system in Ireland but it seems different. For example one of the women I worked with in the UK was related to nobility. Despite this she spent half her days on ketamine, dropped out of college and went working in a shop yet was refereed to as upper class. A working class student graduated from Oxford to become a doctor yet in Oxford some referred to him as "working class". In other words class was defined by background, not current occupation.

Do you think Ireland will ever develop a class problem like the UK?

Zebra3

Because we are two very different countries.

Big advantages to being a republic.

indioblack

steddyeddy wrote: »

I've just left the UK having spent the last five years split between there and the US. I'll be living in Germany and Austria now for the next few years.

While in the UK I've worked with people from Oxford and Cambridge ect and it's evident there's a very strong class system in place in the UK. For example 7% of all UK pupils attend private schools yet 42% of Oxbridge places go to private school pupils.

Besides that there's the more obvious landed gentry and nobility class. I was scolded when I referred to the paedophile's friend, Prince Andrew as Andrew Windsor rather than the prince version.

I'm not saying there's no class system in Ireland but it seems different. For example one of the women I worked with in the UK was related to nobility. Despite this she spent half her days on ketamine, dropped out of college and went working in a shop yet was refereed to as upper class. A working class student graduated from Oxford to become a doctor yet in Oxford some referred to him as "working class". In other words class was defined by background, not current occupation.

Do you think Ireland will ever develop a class problem like the UK?

Because you're wonderful.

steddyeddy

Zebra3 wrote: »

Because we are two very different countries.

Big advantages to being a republic.

But we were colonised by the UK. There's literally no similarity in the class systems which is strange.

FTA69

Basically because instead of being a typical Northern European developed country we were a colony with no industry. In Britain you had nobility, a prominent employer class and also a large manual working class. This led to the rise of a mass labour movement and people often viewing issues relevant to them through the prism of that economic class. Out of that then grew some very deep cultural aspects of that; whether it be church on a Sunday and tennis etc for the middle classes or the rise of football amongst the working class. It became very pronounced and defined.

In Ireland our class system was rooted in the land and our relationship with Britain i.e Catholics got shafted as a rule for large parts of our history. After the Land Acts then we had strong farmers and labourers etc but they still formed part of a relatively cohesive rural and religious community whereas a factory worker in Manchester would never really interact with his boss.

In rural Ireland a millionaire farmer will drink with and play cards in the village pub with a mechanic for instance, while in the UK it’s rare you’d see the same dynamic. Irish politics and culture were also shaped in a large part by nationalism as opposed to a left/right split based along economic lines which would be another factor.

Trigger Happy

steddyeddy wrote: »

But we were colonised by the UK. There's literally no similarity in the class systems which is strange.

Ireland had a class system forced on us by the English.

However, from 1920 to 1923 40,000 protestants left ireland, many of these would have been the wealthy landed class. That would have been a kick in the nuts for Ireland's class system.
Make no mistake though, the class system still exists here but not as obvious as it was back then.

FTA69

Also the class system here is much more permeable once you have money. You can come from a humble background in Ireland and become a wealthy barrister or property developer and immediately access private schools, the gaff in D4, exclusive golf clubs etc once you have the money.

The likes of Jonny Ronan or someone in the UK wouldn’t be able to fit that easily into the social networks that spawned the likes of Boris Johnson for instance.

Hamsterchops

steddyeddy wrote: »

But we were colonised by the UK. There's literally no similarity in the class systems which is strange.

More like administered by London. Class systems are much more prevalent in England than in other regions/ countries of the UK....

Seamai

Zebra3 wrote: »

Because we are two very different countries.

Big advantages to being a republic.

I think not having an aristocracy helps in no small way.

TheBoyConor

Because the worst of the class mongers were caused to vacate the 26 counties in the aftermath of the war. The protestant gentry were the ringleaders in enforcing oppression on the irish.

They were forced out through economics or in a lot of cases too they were simply burnt out and intimadated into leaving.

touts

Because we dismantled the upperclass in the revolution and dispite the rubbish spouted by Sinn Fein and other left wing fundamentalist parties we never rebuilt it. Yes there are a few idiots at the top who think the rules don't apply to the but in general throughout society we are equal and merit driven.

Hamsterchops

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Because the worst of the class mongers were caused to vacate the 26 counties in the aftermath of the war. The protestant gentry were the ringleaders in enforcing oppression on the irish.

They were forced out through economics or in a lot of cases too they were simply burnt out and intimadated into leaving.

Not all burnt out, some of us survived :mad:

TheBoyConor

As the saying goes, they haven't gone away you know.....neither have the others.

Thelonious Monk

We have the exact same obnoxious ill behaving "chavs" here in Ireland that they have in the UK. The only 2 countries in Europe who seem to produce these types of people. The only 2 countries where you'll see women go to the supermarket in pajamas at 2pm.

FTA69

touts wrote: »

Because we dismantled the upperclass in the revolution and dispite the rubbish spouted by Sinn Fein and other left wing fundamentalist parties we never rebuilt it. Yes there are a few idiots at the top who think the rules don't apply to the but in general throughout society we are equal and merit driven.

We don’t have the remnants of a colonial ascendancy but we do have extraordinary wealthy and powerful people who share a common interest and there are links that reinforce that across the political, financial, business and media elite too.

Any capitalist society will have a ‘class system’ in that sense; those who own property and wealth and those who don’t. The major difference between Ireland and the UK is that our class system is pretty much solely economics based as opposed to being based on mass inheritance, a historic tradition and specific cultural norms.

banie01

Because the average paddy was the Hiberno-english underclass.
The Hiberno-English and wealthy Irish folk sent their children to English public schools.
It was the "done" thing and particularly in the east of the country.

Our independence has a little to do with our not having a Brit style class system.
It's more to do with the Irish upper class, being British based landowners and their relying upon UK public schools for education and estate managers for their Irish estates.

Prior to our independence, Ireland was quite class riven and Dublin was a particularly bright Debutante circuit.
Georgian Dublin and Limerick all carry fine examples of urban "big-houses" and despite the destruction of many rural big-houses during the war of independence many still survive to illustrate the gap between the land owning class, and the Irish.


It's far more to do with those Irish involved in such a system, seeing themselves as British and indeed bar the location of their birth they really were.
Then transplanting themselves en masse to the UK at the dissolution of Union.

steddyeddy

Hamsterchops wrote: »

More like administered by London. Class systems are much more prevalent in England than in other regions/ countries of the UK....

Yes indeed. My former boss was Scottish. He met princess Anne and was scolded for calling her "Annie".

JohnnyFlash

What’s this sudden obsession with class? Like a bad Dickens novel.

TheBoyConor

There are still a few enclaves around the country where not all of the upper class would have fled after the establishment of the 26 county free state. Wicklow and parts of west Cork I always knew about, but I'm surprised that there are few other still extant hives from where they look down on the rest of us. Map from the CSO....
http://census.cso.ie/p8map61/

steddyeddy

banie01 wrote: »

Because the average paddy was the Hiberno-english underclass.
The Hiberno-English and wealthy Irish folk sent their children to English public schools.
It was the "done" thing and particularly in the east of the country.

Our independence has a little to do with our not having a Brit style class system.
It's more to do with the Irish upper class, being British based landowners and their relying upon UK public schools for education and estate managers for their Irish estates.

Prior to our independence, Ireland was quite class riven and Dublin was a particularly bright Debutante circuit.
Georgian Dublin and Limerick all carry fine examples of urban "big-houses" and despite the destruction of many rural big-houses during the war of independence many still survive to illustrate the gap between the land owning class, and the Irish.


It's far more to do with those Irish involved in such a system, seeing themselves as British and indeed bar the location of their birth they really were.
Then transplanting themselves en masse to the UK at the dissolution of Union.

An old Etonian told me that that Ireland hasn't a class system as we're only a few generations away from the tenant class, therefore all working class. He worked with lawyers from Ireland from Belvedere college who he referred to as the pound shop lawyers behind their back.

Mongfinder General

The upper middle class hide in plain sight. They are completely cosseted along large stretches of Dublin's coast line, Montenotte in Cork etc. Not a chance of a social house going into these areas. Yet, the denizens I've encountered appear to be quite woke in their views - probably because there's not a chance of the consequences landing on their door steps.

landofthetree

We have a class system in Ireland. I guess when you dont hand out titles like Lord,Duke,Baron,Sir etc we tend not to notice it as much.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/education/class-gap-in-top-universities-revealed-in-latest-enrolment-figures-1.3749261%3fmode=amp

Students from fee-paying schools account for between 25 and 30 per cent of new undergraduates at Trinity and UCD in the current academic year.

steddyeddy

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

What’s this sudden obsession with class? Like a bad Dickens novel.

We haven't in Ireland really. I am fascinated by the English system though.

Seamai

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

What’s this sudden obsession with class? Like a bad Dickens novel.

I've come over all Lady Dedlock from Bleak House.

steddyeddy

landofthetree wrote: »

We have a class system in Ireland.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/education/class-gap-in-top-universities-revealed-in-latest-enrolment-figures-1.3749261%3fmode=amp

Students from fee-paying schools account for between 25 and 30 per cent of new undergraduates at Trinity and UCD in the current academic year.

There's fee paying and there's fee paying like Eton. We have far more equality of opportunity than the UK.

banie01

steddyeddy wrote: »

An old Etonian told me that that Ireland hasn't a class system as we're only a few generations away from the tenant class, therefore all working class. He worked with lawyers from Ireland from Belvedere college who he referred to as the pound shop lawyers behind their back.

From the English perspective, he's not wrong.
A lot of their legal students wear an air of ancient entitlement that is quite often manifested as arrogance.

ELM327

landofthetree wrote: »

We have a class system in Ireland. I guess when you dont hand out titles like Lord,Duke,Baron,Sir etc we tend not to notice it as much.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/education/class-gap-in-top-universities-revealed-in-latest-enrolment-figures-1.3749261%3fmode=amp

Students from fee-paying schools account for between 25 and 30 per cent of new undergraduates at Trinity and UCD in the current academic year.

As someone who attended fee paying school for secondary, not all of the children were of wealthy parents. The majority were from professional backgrounds of parents who were willing to scrimp and save to pay for a better education for their offspring.

TheBoyConor

Yes but that is more of it. Sending them to the posh schools and looking down on everyone else.

landofthetree

steddyeddy wrote: »

There's fee paying and there's fee paying like Eton. We have far more equality of opportunity than the UK.

Its around the same as the UK.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index

touts

ELM327 wrote: »

As someone who attended fee paying school for secondary, not all of the children were of wealthy parents. The majority were from professional backgrounds of parents who were willing to scrimp and save to pay for a better education for their offspring.

That's the key. It's all about choices. In Ireland you and your family can move up the class structure if you work hard and prioritise things like education. I'm the first in my family to go to University because my parents choose to do so. My aunts and uncles didn't and now my cousins are firmly in what would be classified as working class in terms of jobs houses etc. Strangely they all still go on sun holidays every year, have the latest iphone etc and all the sports channels. We don't. We go overseas every 2nd/3rd year and buy mid range android phones and don't have sky sports. But we have a good savings pot built up to pay for the kids to go to University and if needed to pay for grinds etc to help them get there. Knowing my cousins children I suspect a few won't even finish secondary school let alone go to university.

In Ireland you can rise up to the top level. Look at Paul Reid in the HSE. He rose to one of the top positions in the country from very humble beginnings because he and his family worked hard for it. In the UK that is all but impossible without the right school tie and family background.

steddyeddy

landofthetree wrote: »

Its around the same as the UK.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index

With Ireland several places higher?

corks finest

steddyeddy wrote: »

I've just left the UK having spent the last five years split between there and the US. I'll be living in Germany and Austria now for the next few years.

While in the UK I've worked with people from Oxford and Cambridge ect and it's evident there's a very strong class system in place in the UK. For example 7% of all UK pupils attend private schools yet 42% of Oxbridge places go to private school pupils.

Besides that there's the more obvious landed gentry and nobility class. I was scolded when I referred to the paedophile's friend, Prince Andrew as Andrew Windsor rather than the prince version.

I'm not saying there's no class system in Ireland but it seems different. For example one of the women I worked with in the UK was related to nobility. Despite this she spent half her days on ketamine, dropped out of college and went working in a shop yet was refereed to as upper class. A working class student graduated from Oxford to become a doctor yet in Oxford some referred to him as "working class". In other words class was defined by background, not current occupation.

Do you think Ireland will ever develop a class problem like the UK?

As a kind it semi republic no it won’t be tolerated

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Zebra3 wrote: »

Because we are two very different countries.

Big advantages to being a republic.

Didn't do much for Latin American nations.

steddyeddy

ELM327 wrote: »

As someone who attended fee paying school for secondary, not all of the children were of wealthy parents. The majority were from professional backgrounds of parents who were willing to scrimp and save to pay for a better education for their offspring.

It's like that for a lot of fee paying schools in the UK too, however, a lot of them are beyond the reach of most honest people.

un5byh7sqpd2x0

steddyeddy wrote: »

But we were colonised by the UK. There's literally no similarity in the class systems which is strange.

It’s because we were all lower than working class in their eyes

steddyeddy

landofthetree wrote: »

We have a class system in Ireland. I guess when you dont hand out titles like Lord,Duke,Baron,Sir etc we tend not to notice it as much.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/education/class-gap-in-top-universities-revealed-in-latest-enrolment-figures-1.3749261%3fmode=amp

Students from fee-paying schools account for between 25 and 30 per cent of new undergraduates at Trinity and UCD in the current academic year.

Listen I don't mean to dismiss your point. We don't want a situation like the UK where entry to the top schools effectively purchases your way into university. It creates a situation where the richer less able children get into university at higher rates than those brighter, but poorer. Cambridge came out with a study that suggested that the grade of someone from a private school is in reality worth less than the equivalent grade from a state school. In other words state school students do better at university.

At UCD I didn't see much difference between private and state but in the UK I was subjected to hooray henrys that were thick as pig sh1t but were effectively bought into university.

Zebra3

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Didn't do much for Latin American nations.

Because many are very racist countries with the descendants of Spanish settlers looking down on the indigenous people who survived the genocide?

steddyeddy

Nehemiah Straight Snowflake wrote: »

It’s because we were all lower than working class in their eyes

I suspect still are in the eyes of many. The sad thing is that even the working class in England seem to hold the "upper classes" in high regard. Now the earning class seem to have believed the words of an overprivileged oik like Johnson and voted to destroy their own future.

gourcuff

Culchies in Ireland seem to have far higher levels of social mobility or class mobility than the working class dub which is hard to understand...

So many sons and daughters of small farmers now high up in the professional classes in Ireland, the traditional inner city residents seem to have less access to social mobility....

Connacht15

If you are born on the wrong side of the tracks here you will suffer because of it!
Also AFAIK all studies on the matter show there is far more upward social mobility In England than here!
Irish People have no understanding of a class system and pretend everyone is the same with the same life opportunities!
Ireland is similar to The States in that respect and the social class system in both is worse than it is in England!

steddyeddy

Connacht15 wrote: »

If you are born on the wrong side of the tracks here you will suffer because of it!
Also AFAIK all studies on the matter show there is far more upward social mobility In England than here!
Irish People have no understanding of a class system and pretend everyone is the same with the same life opportunities!
Ireland is similar to The States in that respect and the social class system in both is worse than it is in England!

How is it worse exactly?

Ush1

gourcuff wrote: »

Culchies in Ireland seem to have far higher levels of social mobility or class mobility than the working class dub which is hard to understand...

So many sons and daughters of small farmers now high up in the professional classes in Ireland, the traditional inner city residents seem to have less access to social mobility....

Sure who needs mobility when you have your arse wiped for ya?

JasonStatham

Class..what class....

Your Face

TheBoyConor wrote: »

There are still a few enclaves around the country where not all of the upper class would have fled after the establishment of the 26 county free state. Wicklow and parts of west Cork I always knew about, but I'm surprised that there are few other still extant hives from where they look down on the rest of us. Map from the CSO....
http://census.cso.ie/p8map61/

Did a British Aristocrat touch your bottom or something?

landofthetree

People vote with their feet and go to the UK for better opportunities. If the UK didnt allow people the chance to better themselves they would stay in Ireland.

landofthetree

gourcuff wrote: »

Culchies in Ireland seem to have far higher levels of social mobility or class mobility than the working class dub which is hard to understand...

So many sons and daughters of small farmers now high up in the professional classes in Ireland, the traditional inner city residents seem to have less access to social mobility....

Down the country a secondary school is just a school. It tends to have people of all social class.

Inner city kids all go to the one school.

landofthetree

steddyeddy wrote: »

Listen I don't mean to dismiss your point. We don't want a situation like the UK where entry to the top schools effectively purchases your way into university. It creates a situation where the richer less able children get into university at higher rates than those brighter, but poorer. Cambridge came out with a study that suggested that the grade of someone from a private school is in reality worth less than the equivalent grade from a state school. In other words state school students do better at university.

At UCD I didn't see much difference between private and state but in the UK I was subjected to hooray henrys that were thick as pig sh1t but were effectively bought into university.

Well thats easily explained. The A level system is corrupt as hell.

Winchester College had suspended its head of history of art after allegations that he gave students information ahead of exam questions on two papers. That came just days after a senior teacher at Eton left in similar circumstances.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/08/31/government-orders-investigation-public-school-cheating-scandal/

Del.Monte

Some serious chips on shoulders in this thread - I'm surprised that some of you can stand upright. :pac:

JasonStatham

TheBoyConor wrote: »

There are still a few enclaves around the country where not all of the upper class would have fled after the establishment of the 26 county free state. Wicklow and parts of west Cork I always knew about, but I'm surprised that there are few other still extant hives from where they look down on the rest of us. Map from the CSO....
http://census.cso.ie/p8map61/

There's a load of protestants beside us.... can't say i feel like they're different at all. I just see them as Irish.

Dunno about the lot just across the border though. They're a different kettle of fish altogether.

landofthetree

touts wrote: »

Because we dismantled the upperclass in the revolution and dispite the rubbish spouted by Sinn Fein and other left wing fundamentalist parties we never rebuilt it. Yes there are a few idiots at the top who think the rules don't apply to the but in general throughout society we are equal and merit driven.

What the left wing party hates is the hierarchy of competence. Thats a class system in itself.



Id love to be a fly on the wall to see the reaction of these left wing types if their daughter brought home an unemployed labourer with a drug problem. How much empathy and understanding would they show?

3d4life

TheBoyConor wrote: »

There are still a few enclaves around the country where not all of the upper class would have fled after the establishment of the 26 county free state. Wicklow and parts of west Cork I always knew about, but I'm surprised that there are few other still extant hives from where they look down on the rest of us. Map from the CSO....
http://census.cso.ie/p8map61/

Whats your point here Lad ?

Do you equate CoI with 'upper class' ?

Maybe you need to get out more

Take yourself off up to the backside of Leitrim/Cavan and count the number of 'upper class' CoIs