Renting to a person recieving HAP

landlord2020

Have a 3 bed which I'm getting ready for rental. Will probably rent to a person receiving HAP


What is the procedure once I agree to rent it to them .. do I contact HAP or what ?

Graces7

Simply; thank you.

You don’t have to do anything until the tenant gives you the forms to fill out, but you do need a tax clearance certificate from Revenue to confirm you are tax compliant.

You do need to educate yourself on the benefits and drawbacks of renting to a tenant in receipt of HAP.

The main drawbacks are that rent is paid in arrears and if your tenant stops paying their portion of rent to the Local Authority, the LA in turn stop paying you without warning. Also, the LA will inspect your house to make sure it meets their required standards.

Remember, HAP is an agreement between the tenant and the LA, not between the LA and you. Make sure your tenancy agreement clearly outlines the terms of the tenancy, particularly relating to deposit and rent being paid month in advance. HAP has no baring on the tenancy agreement so the tenant has to pay rent up until HAP payments from LA begin, these must be in advance if your tenancy agreement says so.


http://hap.ie/uploads/files/pdf/landlord-booklet-english.pdf

Gumbo

landlord2020 wrote: »

Have a 3 bed which I'm getting ready for rental. Will probably rent to a person receiving HAP


What is the procedure once I agree to rent it to them .. do I contact HAP or what ?

All as normal.
Tenant arranges everything.
You have to sign a form and prove tax clearance.

My HAP tenant has been brilliant the past 5 years.

Graces7

Also you cannot refuse a tenant because they will be on HAP .

Graces7

Graces7 wrote: »

Also you cannot refuse a tenant because they will be on HAP .

You are not required to accept the tenant either, you pick your preferred applicant irrespective of HAP status.

landlord2020

What happens if I agree to rent to a tenant who says they will be relying on HAP to pay most of the rent, but after a month in the house they find out they dont qualify ( not the house) for some reason. Am I left with a tenant that cant pay and cant be asked to leave ?

Guess what I'm really asking is, is there a way to know they WILL definitely get HAP ? Thanks

godtabh

Check your insurance. Mine doesn’t allow hap tenants

davindub

Dav010 wrote: »

Remember, HAP is an agreement between the tenant and the LA, not between the LA and you. Make sure your tenancy agreement clearly outlines the terms of the tenancy, particularly relating to deposit and rent being paid month in advance. HAP has no baring on the tenancy agreement so the tenant has to pay rent up until HAP payments from LA begin, these must be in advance if your tenancy agreement says so.


http://hap.ie/uploads/files/pdf/landlord-booklet-english.pdf

The link definitely does not say the above.

handlemaster

landlord2020 wrote: »

Have a 3 bed which I'm getting ready for rental. Will probably rent to a person receiving HAP


What is the procedure once I agree to rent it to them .. do I contact HAP or what ?

When the HAP inspection comes you better have money put aside for the upgrading. Do you have the electrical report and gas also if you have it ? Window restrictors on the windows above 2 metres. Ventilation in all rooms.

Scienceless

godtabh wrote: »

Check your insurance. Mine doesn’t allow hap tenants

Is this correct?

chicorytip

handlemaster wrote: »

When the HAP inspection comes you better have money put aside for the upgrading. Do you have the electrical report and gas also if you have it ? Window restrictors on the windows above 2 metres. Ventilation in all rooms.

If a HAP inspection is carried out at all, that is. In some local authority areas less than 10% of properties rented to HAP recipients are vetted.

handlemaster

chicorytip wrote: »

If a HAP inspection is carried out at all, that is. In some local authority areas less than 10% of properties rented to HAP recipients are vetted.

When the inspection is done and it will be the OP needs to have the cash to to the work or the HAP payment stops.

Gumbo

handlemaster wrote: »

When the HAP inspection comes you better have money put aside for the upgrading. Do you have the electrical report and gas also if you have it ? Window restrictors on the windows above 2 metres. Ventilation in all rooms.

I required no electrical report?
Vents should be in every room already.
Window restrictors May have to be retrofitted depending on the age of the property but these are €10 each and can be done DIY. Not a large expense.
Gas boiler service should be done anyway so that’s not an additional item.

Gumbo

handlemaster wrote: »

When the inspection is done and it will be the OP needs to have the cash to to the work or the HAP payment stops.

They give you like 3 months to carry out the works. The payment doesn’t auto stop. They have me time to get the restrictors fitted and then an additional time when I told them they were in short supply.

It’s not a fail and payment stops kind of thing. They tell you what has to be done and allow you reasonable timeframe to carry out any works.

Rows Grower

landlord2020 wrote: »

What happens if I agree to rent to a tenant who says they will be relying on HAP to pay most of the rent, but after a month in the house they find out they dont qualify ( not the house) for some reason. Am I left with a tenant that cant pay and cant be asked to leave ?

Guess what I'm really asking is, is there a way to know they WILL definitely get HAP ? Thanks

The tenant will already have been told if they are entitled to a HAP payment or not. You can contact the HAP department of your local council before actually letting them move in and they will give you a heads up on any issues if there are any.

If you let the tenant in before you receive official approval the payment can be back dated to when they moved in, there might be a small shortage that the tenant is liable for the first month if they moved in early.

Make sure you get your months advance/deposit before you hand over the keys and have a copy of the contract signed by both of ye and all should be good.

handlemaster

Gumbo wrote: »

I required no electrical report?
Vents should be in every room already.
Window restrictors May have to be retrofitted depending on the age of the property but these are €10 each and can be done DIY. Not a large expense.
Gas boiler service should be done anyway so that’s not an additional item.

A electrical report is required

handlemaster

Gumbo wrote: »

They give you like 3 months to carry out the works. The payment doesn’t auto stop. They have me time to get the restrictors fitted and then an additional time when I told them they were in short supply.

It’s not a fail and payment stops kind of thing. They tell you what has to be done and allow you reasonable timeframe to carry out any works.

my point is money has to be there to pay for it. Not everyone has the extra money thats required

Gumbo

handlemaster wrote: »

A electrical report is required

Didn’t ask me for one earlier this year.
This is the leaflet I got sent by Fingal.

https://www.rtb.ie/images/uploads/general/RTB_House_Safety_leaflet.pdf

The_Conductor

Gumbo wrote: »

Vents should be in every room already.

It depends entirely on when the property was built- as the building regs when the property was built is the regs that they will have been built to meet.
Up until 2002 it was permissible to have ventilation built into window frames- and a significant proportion of properties built between 1994 and 2002 used these type window frames. Many (but not all) local authorities do not accept ventilation built into window frames as an acceptable form of room ventilation and demand formal vents be retrofitted into rooms (hence the burgeoning trade that Holemasters cater to). It really depends on the local authority though- some are stricter than others.

dennyk

landlord2020 wrote: »

What happens if I agree to rent to a tenant who says they will be relying on HAP to pay most of the rent, but after a month in the house they find out they dont qualify ( not the house) for some reason. Am I left with a tenant that cant pay and cant be asked to leave?

You can't refuse a tenant because they are using HAP (or planning to apply for HAP), but HAP tenancies can still be terminated for rent arrears the same as any other tenant (though you'll need to pay close attention to the current COVID-19-related tenancy legislation to make sure you aren't running afoul of that). In the worst case scenario, just like with any non-paying tenant, you could be stuck with them for a year or more while you go through the arduous process of legally evicting them, though.

handlemaster

Gumbo wrote: »

Didn’t ask me for one earlier this year.
This is the leaflet I got sent by Fingal.

https://www.rtb.ie/images/uploads/general/RTB_House_Safety_leaflet.pdf

They will. Ask them. Surprises will be coming to you with HAP.

Yellow_Fern

Gumbo wrote: »

I required no electrical report?
Vents should be in every room already.
Window restrictors May have to be retrofitted depending on the age of the property but these are €10 each and can be done DIY. Not a large expense.
Gas boiler service should be done anyway so that’s not an additional item.

Installing hole in the wall vents into a house without is a form of vandalism, especially in a era of concerns about sustainability.

blackbox

1. What happens if the landlord chooses not to modify the house?

2. Can the landlord include in contract with tenant that house is let "as is"?

Gumbo

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Installing hole in the wall vents into a house without is a form of vandalism, especially in a era of concerns about sustainability.

I never said anything about installing vents

Gumbo

The_Conductor wrote: »

It depends entirely on when the property was built- as the building regs when the property was built is the regs that they will have been built to meet.
Up until 2002 it was permissible to have ventilation built into window frames- and a significant proportion of properties built between 1994 and 2002 used these type window frames. Many (but not all) local authorities do not accept ventilation built into window frames as an acceptable form of room ventilation and demand formal vents be retrofitted into rooms (hence the burgeoning trade that Holemasters cater to). It really depends on the local authority though- some are stricter than others.

Ohh well aware of that, this property was in Fingal area. The allowance of trickle vents continued well beyond 2002. I have a house built in 2006 and full compliance with Part F, trickle vents in the bedrooms and permanent vents in the kitchen and bathrooms (electrical extract vents).

Gumbo

handlemaster wrote: »

They will. Ask them. Surprises will be coming to you with HAP.

I’m a HAP landlord 5 years now. 2 inspections later and a letter from this year stating I am in full compliance. I don’t think I’ll be getting hit with any form of electrical cert request anytime soon.

I’d like to see a copy of the cert they request and to what standard they are requesting it to?

The_Conductor

Part of the problem is a lack of consistency between the different local authority areas- where one set of rules seems to be applied in one area, and a different set elsewhere. This extents to the inspection regime as well- where 4 local authorities claim to have inspected all HAP rentals (and have moved on to regular rentals) in the last 4 years- while others refuse point blank to release figures on their inspection regimes (or have them so far out of date to be meaningless- such as Galway City Council). It shouldn't be so difficult for the various local authorities to sing off the same hymn sheet.

Graces7

Dav010 wrote: »

You are not required to accept the tenant either, you pick your preferred applicant irrespective of HAP status.

In my case a while back the landlord said in writing that " HAP does not suit my husband and I. " And there were no other applicants.

I was not about to do battle as the house was not altogether suitable and that kind of relationship with a landlord is not something I would seek. I did take legal advice and was assured the ll was in the wrong.

landlord2020

dennyk wrote: »

You can't refuse a tenant because they are using HAP (or planning to apply for HAP), but HAP tenancies can still be terminated for rent arrears the same as any other tenant (though you'll need to pay close attention to the current COVID-19-related tenancy legislation to make sure you aren't running afoul of that). In the worst case scenario, just like with any non-paying tenant, you could be stuck with them for a year or more while you go through the arduous process of legally evicting them, though.

I can ascertain that they definitely qualify for HAP first though. It seems to me that a person expecting HAP wouldn't be able to pay the rent if they were subsequently refused HAP. Not sure how often would happen ?

arctictree

Sorry for bringing up an old thread. What happens if a tenant has just stated they are on HAP but the landlord doesn't have the money to upgrade the house or cant get a tax clearance cert?

The_Conductor

arctictree wrote: »

Sorry for bringing up an old thread. What happens if a tenant has just stated they are on HAP but the landlord doesn't have the money to upgrade the house or cant get a tax clearance cert?

The landlord would be viewed as discriminating against the HAP tenant, and liable to fines and/or imprisonment, until such time as the discrimination was made good and the tenant appropriately compensated for the landlord's lack of compliance with the HAP regime.

In short- you don't have a leg to stand on. You cannot argue mitigating factors- if you are not compliant, you are liable to both compensate the tenant and bring yourself into compliance- regardless of what it costs you to do so.

Yellow_Fern

The_Conductor wrote: »

The landlord would be viewed as discriminating against the HAP tenant, and liable to fines and/or imprisonment, until such time as the discrimination was made good and the tenant appropriately compensated for the landlord's lack of compliance with the HAP regime.

In short- you don't have a leg to stand on. You cannot argue mitigating factors- if you are not compliant, you are liable to both compensate the tenant and bring yourself into compliance- regardless of what it costs you to do so.

That is a shamefully immoral system

Graces7

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

That is a shamefully immoral system

In what way?

Rows Grower

The_Conductor wrote: »

The landlord would be viewed as discriminating against the HAP tenant, and liable to fines and/or imprisonment, until such time as the discrimination was made good and the tenant appropriately compensated for the landlord's lack of compliance with the HAP regime.

In short- you don't have a leg to stand on. You cannot argue mitigating factors- if you are not compliant, you are liable to both compensate the tenant and bring yourself into compliance- regardless of what it costs you to do so.

This doesn’t sound right, in what specific scenario does this apply?

The_Conductor

Rows Grower wrote: »

This doesn’t sound right, in what specific scenario does this apply?

A landlord is not entitled to refuse to rent to someone on HAP, irrespective of whether or not the property is capable of passing a HAP inspection, and irrespective of whether or not the landlord is in possession of a current tax clearance certificate.

The landlord can of course choose who he/she wishes to rent their property to- and if they have multiple applicants, is free to choose a different tenant, they may not however choose the alternate tenant on any of the rules governing discrimination- one of which is whether or not the tenant is a HAP tenant.

This is not a specific scenario- it is across the board, and without exception.

If a landlord lets a property to a tenant who subsequently claims HAP- the landlord must ensure the property passes any inspection it may incur- and must ensure that they produce the requisite documentation (including a tax clearance certificate) to enable the tenant claim HAP.

Its been this way for some time- it is not new, and if landlords are not sufficiently familiar with the legislation they should either hand over the management of their property to a competent managing agent- or sell. One or the other.

The_Conductor

The_Conductor wrote: »

A landlord is not entitled to refuse to rent to someone on HAP, irrespective of whether or not the property is capable of passing a HAP inspection, and irrespective of whether or not the landlord is in possession of a current tax clearance certificate.

The landlord can of course choose who he/she wishes to rent their property to- and if they have multiple applicants, is free to choose a different tenant, they may not however choose the alternate tenant on any of the rules governing discrimination- one of which is whether or not the tenant is a HAP tenant.

This is not a specific scenario- it is across the board, and without exception.

If a landlord lets a property to a tenant who subsequently claims HAP- the landlord must ensure the property passes any inspection it may incur- and must ensure that they produce the requisite documentation (including a tax clearance certificate) to enable the tenant claim HAP.

Its been this way for some time- it is not new, and if landlords are not sufficiently familiar with the legislation they should either hand over the management of their property to a competent managing agent- or sell. One or the other.

But what if the LL accepts the HAP tenant, but Revenue refuse to issue a tax clearance certificate? The LL has not discriminated against a tenant in receipt of HAP, but is unable to obtain the necessary certificate to comply with HAP requirements, I could be wrong, but I think this is the point the arctictree is making as there is no mention of the HAP tenant being refused, only that the LL cannot comply (as opposed to will not) with the HAP requirements.

Graces7

Graces7 wrote: »

In what way?

The LL potentially faces huge fines for being unable to provide a certificate only Revenue can decide whether to issue, and which is not required for private rentals.

Rows Grower

The_Conductor wrote: »

A landlord is not entitled to refuse to rent to someone on HAP, irrespective of whether or not the property is capable of passing a HAP inspection, and irrespective of whether or not the landlord is in possession of a current tax clearance certificate.

The landlord can of course choose who he/she wishes to rent their property to- and if they have multiple applicants, is free to choose a different tenant, they may not however choose the alternate tenant on any of the rules governing discrimination- one of which is whether or not the tenant is a HAP tenant.

This is not a specific scenario- it is across the board, and without exception.

If a landlord lets a property to a tenant who subsequently claims HAP- the landlord must ensure the property passes any inspection it may incur- and must ensure that they produce the requisite documentation (including a tax clearance certificate) to enable the tenant claim HAP.

Its been this way for some time- it is not new, and if landlords are not sufficiently familiar with the legislation they should either hand over the management of their property to a competent managing agent- or sell. One or the other.

LOL, you'd make a great little dictator.

Your first paragraph is total bull as well.

Rows Grower

Rows Grower wrote: »

LOL, you'd make a great little dictator.

Your first paragraph is total bull as well.

To be fair, the conductor has a valid point, claiming ignorance of the regulations isn’t a valid defence and the penalties are high for LLs falling fowl of the RTB/WRC. There have been severe penalties handed down in cases where LLs claimed they would not rent to HAP because they weren’t in a position to provide a TCC. There was one in the news a couple of months ago. But, in that case the LLs refused to rent to HAP, what is less clear is what would happen if the LL did rent to the HAP but subsequently was unable to get a TCC from Revenue.

Rows Grower

Dav010 wrote: »

To be fair, the conductor has a valid point, claiming ignorance of the regulations isn’t a valid defence and the penalties are high for LLs falling fowl of the RTB/WRC. There have been severe penalties handed down in cases where LLs claimed they would not rent to HAP because they weren’t in a position to provide a TCC. There was one in the news a couple of months ago. But, in that case the LLs refused to rent to HAP, what is less clear is what would happen if the LL did rent to the HAP but subsequently was unable to get a TCC from Revenue.

Which part of my post is wrong?

Rows Grower

Rows Grower wrote: »

Which part of my post is wrong?

All of it.

If you read the post you quoted, it was a follow up to a post stating that you cannot refuse to rent to a HAP tenant because you are unable to comply with the regulations. This has been proven to be correct by recent WRC rulings where LLs were penalised for using this excuse to refuse HAP tenants.

You also highlighted a paragraph and said the poster would make a good Dictator, yet, again, the poster was correct, claiming ignorance as a defence is futile, the RTB/WRC expect all LLs to be aware of the regulations, if the LL doesn’t know them, they are leaving themselves open to be fined a lot of money.

As far as I am aware, there is very little difference between the LA standard requirements for HAP tenants and private tenants, so a LL has to know what the minimum standards are irrespective of which type of tenant rents the property.

As I have said, what is less clear is what happens when the LL does agree to HAP, but Revenue won’t provide the TCC, does the LL direct the WRC to Revenue?

Rows Grower

Dav010 wrote: »

All of it.

If you read the post you quoted, it was a follow up to a post stating that you cannot refuse to rent to a HAP tenant because you are unable to comply with the regulations. This has been proven to be correct by recent WRC rulings where LLs were penalised for using this excuse to refuse HAP tenants.

You also highlighted a paragraph and said the poster would make a good Dictator, yet, again, the poster was correct, claiming ignorance as a defence is futile, the RTB/WRC expect all LLs to be aware of the regulations, if the LL doesn’t know them, they are leaving themselves open to be fined a lot of money.

As far as I am aware, there is very little difference between the LA standard requirements for HAP tenants and private tenants, so a LL has to know what the minimum standards are irrespective of which type of tenant rents the property.

As I have said, what is less clear is what happens when the LL does agree to HAP, but Revenue won’t provide the TCC, does the LL direct the WRC to Revenue?

The post I quoted is there for all to see and as I said the first paragraph is total bull.

As for the part I highlighted the reason I compared it to dictatorship is because is so ridiculous with it's insistence of "one or the other".

In all fairness, I'm sure the person who I quoted is well able to answer for themselves, they are a mod on the forum and shouldn't be coming out with such crap.

blackbox

I can understand that rental properties must meet regulatory standards, but why are the standards higher for HAP tenants than for the general public?

This makes no sense.

Graces7

blackbox wrote: »

I can understand that rental properties must meet regulatory standards, but why are the standards higher for HAP tenants than for the general public?

This makes no sense.

Are they? Or is it that they are fully checked? Whereas in other cases they are not ?
The last private rental I had was not safe in many ways. I was still on rent allowance and there was no check.

Graces7

Graces7 wrote: »

Are they? Or is it that they are fully checked? Whereas in other cases they are not ?
The last private rental I had was not safe in many ways. I was still on rent allowance and there was no check.

Graces7, the self-righteousness you have displayed through this thread is quite instructive to potential landlords as to why they should avoid renting to HAP tenants. Not only does the Landlord have to contend with the local authority, they have to deal with (in the worst cases) a tenant who is tripping over themselves to exercise and tell the Landlord of their "entitlements". It is an unhealthy approach to a long term contract between the two parties.
The rent limits are so low outside the larger cities that any sensible landlord should come to the conclusion that if they can't rent in the private market they should seriously consider exiting the market and leave social housing provision and all the attendant obligations to the State who will eventually house these "entitled" tenants in their own good time e.g. 15 years later.
It is a fools game; the large residential investors don't take on HAP clients and also shelter their rental income through various structures yet smaller landlords are taxed punitively.
If the large investors do provide housing to be used for social housing they'll negotiate directly with the Council and come out of the process with iron-clad contracts for guaranteed income over decades at above market rates. One needs only look at what has happened with Apartments in Dublin 4 to see that HAP is only a scheme that a small unprofessional landlord would participate in.

TLDR; Selling your investment property is often a more rational strategy than taking on a HAP tenant.

arctictree

So basically if I cant afford to upgrade the property (or dont have a valid TCC), the tenant would need to be given notice and the property sold?

crossmolinalad

godtabh wrote: »

Check your insurance. Mine doesn’t allow hap tenants

??????????????????
A insurer doesn't allow hap but a landlord isn't allowed to say no to a hap tenant
How does that work??
Landlord must allow hap and wou.nd be insured anymore because insurer says no??

Bikerman2019

Rows Grower wrote: »

The tenant will already have been told if they are entitled to a HAP payment or not. You can contact the HAP department of your local council before actually letting them move in and they will give you a heads up on any issues if there are any.

If you let the tenant in before you receive official approval the payment can be back dated to when they moved in, there might be a small shortage that the tenant is liable for the first month if they moved in early.

Make sure you get your months advance/deposit before you hand over the keys and have a copy of the contract signed by both of ye and all should be good.

Not quite. I manage a house where the tenant was told they were ok for HAP. Then they were told sorry, you cannot have HAP. Do not take anything for granted.

L1011

Just a reminder to avoid personalisation of issues here, and to deal with the post contents not the poster of them

Rows Grower

Bikerman2019 wrote: »

Not quite. I manage a house where the tenant was told they were ok for HAP. Then they were told sorry, you cannot have HAP. Do not take anything for granted.

That's your own fault for taking a potential tenant at their word, what I said was the landlord can contact the HAP department before letting the house and the HAP department will give a heads up on any potential issues.