Heuston to Tralee

LemonChicken47

Can anyone whos familiar with this line let me know when it is at its emptiest. What time/ day would be best to avoid crowded carriages?

Jamie2k9

LemonChicken47 wrote: »

Can anyone whos familiar with this line let me know when it is at its emptiest. What time/ day would be best to avoid crowded carriages?

Before the 11.00 ex Heuston and after 15.00 ex Tralee. Traveling at weekends its going to be very busy.

esposito

On a side note, there should be more direct services between Heuston and Tralee. 1 a day is pathetic. There used to be at least 2 direct services up until about 10 years ago or so. A morning direct service would be ideal.

Jamie2k9

esposito wrote: »

On a side note, there should be more direct services between Heuston and Tralee. 1 a day is pathetic. There used to be at least 2 direct services up until about 10 years ago or so. A morning direct service would be ideal.

Its been one return Mon-Sat for over 14 years now. The only change is overall levels of service have dropped from 8 to 7 daily.

In 2005/2006 the other direct services were:

Heuston/Tralee
Friday - 13.10
Friday - 17.30
Saturday - 09.20
Saturday - 13.10 - Summer Only

Tralee/Heuston
Saturday - 13.55

esposito

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Its been one return Mon-Sat for over 14 years now. The only change is overall levels of service have dropped from 8 to 7 daily.

In 2005/2006 the other direct services were:

Heuston/Tralee
Friday - 13.10
Friday - 17.30
Saturday - 09.20
Saturday - 13.10 - Summer Only

Tralee/Heuston
Saturday - 13.55

So basically since the Mark 4’s were introduced on the Dublin to Cork line the direct services to Tralee were reduced to 1 a day.

Why can’t they use one or two Mark 4’s to Tralee?

Jamie2k9

esposito wrote: »

So basically since the Mark 4’s were introduced on the Dublin to Cork line the direct services to Tralee were reduced to 1 a day.

Why can’t they use one or two Mark 4’s to Tralee?

Looking furhter back the second return direct service ended 10 December 2005, it departued Heuston at 08.30 and Tralee at 14.00. The timetable from 11 Decemer 2005 (above directs) resulted in extra services overall but withdrawl of one Mon-Sat direct.

There is probally a strong case for a re-introduction of Friday Only service replacing the 13.00 to Cork connection. They did re-introduce a 3rd direct Sunday service from Tralee to Dublin a few years ago.

andrewfaulk

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Looking furhter back the second return direct service ended 10 December 2005, it departued Heuston at 08.30 and Tralee at 14.00. The timetable from 11 Decemer 2005 (above directs) resulted in extra services overall but withdrawl of one Mon-Sat direct.

There is probally a strong case for a re-introduction of Friday Only service replacing the 13.00 to Cork connection. They did re-introduce a 3rd direct Sunday service from Tralee to Dublin a few years ago.

As I mentioned in another thread in the C&T forum, I think there is a case for replacing the Dublin to Kerry PSO flights with a sub 3 hour express train on the Kerry line.. A greener option by far to help get political buy in

IE 222

The other problem is finding a set to cover the 9 hours or so return journey. That's pretty much 2 return trips elsewhere.

Maybe if the direct was to do the Monday only early departure to Dublin instead all week it could allow 2 return trips done at reasonable peak times.

ongarboy

Aren't nearly all trains virtually deserted nowadays due to COVID so isn't it a moot question? Rush hour trains in Dublin are almost empty so I'd be surprised a train to Tralee would be busy at any time in the current climate.

AngryLips

IE 222 wrote: »

The other problem is finding a set to cover the 9 hours or so return journey. That's pretty much 2 return trips elsewhere.

Maybe if the direct was to do the Monday only early departure to Dublin instead all week it could allow 2 return trips done at reasonable peak times.

Irish Rail can't be that tight on rolling stock, are they? Like I thought it was standard practice to only use a percentage of your total fleet at any given time.

goingnowhere

Pre COVID intercity fleet was 40-60 coaches short, DART fleet was 24-30 coaches short

Del.Monte

goingnowhere wrote: »

Pre COVID intercity fleet was 40-60 coaches short, DART fleet was 24-30 coaches short

I wonder how that happened, surely they could have used the MkIIIs.....oh right :rolleyes:

goingnowhere

There was no problem after the ICR's fleet arrived, there was too much stock after the Mk3's left and the final batch of ICR's arrived

The passenger growth from 35 to 50 million and the dragged out order for 41 more ICR type 'B' coaches left a gap.

The ICR has half the cost per pass/km vs Mk3. With 201 class locomotives literally falling apart the Mk3 option isn't exactly attractive,

Passenger numbers to Tralee are up, not everyone is going to Dublin.

Del.Monte

goingnowhere wrote: »

There was no problem after the ICR's fleet arrived, there was too much stock after the Mk3's left and the final batch of ICR's arrived

The passenger growth from 35 to 50 million and the dragged out order for 41 more ICR type 'B' coaches left a gap.

The ICR has half the cost per pass/km vs Mk3. With 201 class locomotives literally falling apart the Mk3 option isn't exactly attractive,

Passenger numbers to Tralee are up, not everyone is going to Dublin.

Afraid I can't make head or tail of your post. Especially the ICR has half the cost per pass/km vs Mk3.....what's that all about?

end of the road

goingnowhere wrote: »

There was no problem after the ICR's fleet arrived, there was too much stock after the Mk3's left and the final batch of ICR's arrived

there was in no way too much stock.
just not the case.
not in any sort of actual reality in this country.
we have been cronically short since 2004.

IE 222

There was a surplus of stock once the ICRs arrived. Also factor in the dramatic drop in passenger numbers that lasted over 10 years. The 2700s came out of service in 2010 as well. The arrival of ICR seen services increase for many lines even doubled in some cases while mk3s where also withdrawn.


The shortage is in commuter stock and not the intercity fleet. Having Mk3s would only ease rather than resolve the problem. It wasn't until 2017/8 that more stock was required. Looking back in hindsight IE would of needed to of stored the MK3s for best part of 12 years and still would of needed to refurbished and maintained them for return to service. Other than maybe the push pull sets been re-bogied for Waterford services I cant see how holding onto so many unnecessary mk3 would of made good business sense at the time.

Jamie2k9

goingnowhere wrote: »

Pre COVID intercity fleet was 40-60 coaches short, DART fleet was 24-30 coaches short

Not sure I agree the DART fleet is short other issues at play plus the terminating of Maynooth in Connolly has resulted in severe overcrowding.

ICR fleet is short 100% however the base timetable is from 2013 with a fleet of 3/6 sets. A major timetable reshuffle is long overdue.

As I mentioned in another thread in the C&T forum, I think there is a case for replacing the Dublin to Kerry PSO flights with a sub 3 hour express train on the Kerry line.. A greener option by far to help get political buy in

I would imagine once the M21 is completed it will be hard to keep however unlike other PSO's it might be to costly politically to let go.

Passenger numbers to Tralee are up, not everyone is going to Dublin.

This is true, there is no regular Dublin passengers in the sense you get from commuter towns on other routes. There is a stong case for removing the direct M-S services. IE would struggle to make such a move, all it would take is a letter from a TD to Jim and IE back down.

The 17.00, 17.05 and 17.25 services should be optimised and have Cork with its 2h15m (Mallow stop included) combined with a connection for Tralee and potentially 15+ knocked off the evening service from Dublin to Kerry.

dowlingm

esposito wrote: »

So basically since the Mark 4’s were introduced on the Dublin to Cork line the direct services to Tralee were reduced to 1 a day.

Why can’t they use one or two Mark 4’s to Tralee?

I would say use Mk4 on Limerick direct curve services and cascade the 22Ks to Kerry. My understanding is that the Mk4 is cleared to Limerick and would be less mileage on the 201s (and no worry about having to pull a failed one out of Deepest Kerry )

esposito

dowlingm wrote: »

I would say use Mk4 on Limerick direct curve services and cascade the 22Ks to Kerry. My understanding is that the Mk4 is cleared to Limerick and would be less mileage on the 201s (and no worry about having to pull a failed one out of Deepest Kerry )

They shouldn’t be restricted to the Cork line. They should be used on various routes IMO.

Direct services to Limerick, Tralee and Westport as well as Cork. A mix of ICR’s and Mk4

But I suppose IE are anti locomotives aren’t they

dowlingm

esposito wrote: »

They shouldn’t be restricted to the Cork line. They should be used on various routes IMO.

Direct services to Limerick, Tralee and Westport as well as Cork. A mix of ICR’s and Mk4

But I suppose IE are anti locomotives aren’t they

:rolleyes:
Horses for courses. Use the locomotives for fast lines with relatively few low speed PSRs outside of actual stops. A thunderbird loco at Limerick Junction will have a harder time to fetch a set at Rathmore than one at Ballybrophy. But some of us here are interested in IE as an optimized transportation system for the conveyance of customers, rather than an oversized play trainset.

I have previously favoured consolidating all 201 services (and the DDs) to Heuston with 22Ks on the Enterprise, but no doubt this is depriving the Great Irish Railfan of Their Locomotive Rights.

Del.Monte

dowlingm wrote: »

:rolleyes:
Horses for courses. Use the locomotives for fast lines with relatively few low speed PSRs outside of actual stops. A thunderbird loco at Limerick Junction will have a harder time to fetch a set at Rathmore than one at Ballybrophy. But some of us here are interested in IE as an optimized transportation system for the conveyance of customers, rather than an oversized play trainset.

I have previously favoured consolidating all 201 services (and the DDs) to Heuston with 22Ks on the Enterprise, but no doubt this is depriving the Great Irish Railfan of Their Locomotive Rights.

The DDs are jointly owned so that daft idea won't be happening any time soon. Do you ever travel on the ICRs or are you still abroad?

end of the road

dowlingm wrote: »

But some of us here are interested in IE as an optimized transportation system for the conveyance of customers, rather than an oversized play trainset.

i think that is the feeling of most of us in fairness.
if only irish rail management copped on to that viewpoint rather then putting anything and everything over the passenger.

donvito99

Del.Monte wrote: »

The DDs are jointly owned so that daft idea won't be happening any time soon. Do you ever travel on the ICRs or are you still abroad?

Hardly a daft idea. The Enterprise is a brand and I'm sure NIR would be interested in any economies presented to them by IE.

If there hadn't been generator vans going spare, the option for more ICR cars may well have been exercised earlier, avoiding also the recent refurb of the DD sets also.

end of the road

donvito99 wrote: »

Hardly a daft idea. The Enterprise is a brand and I'm sure NIR would be interested in any economies presented to them by IE.

If there hadn't been generator vans going spare, the option for more ICR cars may well have been exercised earlier, avoiding also the recent refurb of the DD sets also.

the extra IC cars wouldn't have covered the dds without cuts elsewhere.
NIR can spare a unit in a failure situation but they have or will have when everything returns to normal, their own growth to manage.
so dds would still be needed until there is a wholesale fleet replacement of them for the line.

Jamie2k9

dowlingm wrote: »

I would say use Mk4 on Limerick direct curve services and cascade the 22Ks to Kerry. My understanding is that the Mk4 is cleared to Limerick and would be less mileage on the 201s (and no worry about having to pull a failed one out of Deepest Kerry )

They are cleared (and to Killarney don't think they went to Tralee) although platforms issues on Kerry are a problem.

Pointless running them to Limerick, lot of extra stopping and will increase the times on direct Limerick services.

esposito wrote: »

They shouldn’t be restricted to the Cork line. They should be used on various routes IMO.

Direct services to Limerick, Tralee and Westport as well as Cork. A mix of ICR’s and Mk4

But I suppose IE are anti locomotives aren’t they

I would ask why use them on other routes?

I have previously favoured consolidating all 201 services (and the DDs) to Heuston with 22Ks on the Enterprise, but no doubt this is depriving the Great Irish Railfan of Their Locomotive Rights.

That would be terrible for Heuston customers.

esposito

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They are cleared (and to Killarney don't think they went to Tralee) although platforms issues on Kerry are a problem.

Pointless running them to Limerick, lot of extra stopping and will increase the times on direct Limerick services.



I would ask why use them on other routes?



That would be terrible for Heuston customers.

Well I certainly think they should be used to Tralee. Share with the Cork line, 2 direct to Tralee with Mk4, the rest use ICR with the change at Mallow.

I personally find the Mk4 more comfortable and with a push pull, I’d imagine it would be faster than a ICR.

You’re right about Limerick not needing them though when I think about it.

L1011

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

plus the terminating of Maynooth in Connolly has resulted in severe overcrowding.

This was blamed by IR on a shortage of drivers at the time it started - there have been multiple classes of drivers trained since... the politician that sent me on the response from IR has retired but I may bounce it back via their successor to point this out.

IE 222

esposito wrote: »

Well I certainly think they should be used to Tralee. Share with the Cork line, 2 direct to Tralee with Mk4, the rest use ICR with the change at Mallow.

I personally find the Mk4 more comfortable and with a push pull, I’d imagine it would be faster than a ICR.

You’re right about Limerick not needing them though when I think about it.

Maybe the Sunday 8:30am ex Hueston otherwise your pulling a set out of Hueston for 19 hours and limiting it to 1 return service a day instead of the 2or3.

Jamie2k9

L1011 wrote: »

This was blamed by IR on a shortage of drivers at the time it started - there have been multiple classes of drivers trained since... the politician that sent me on the response from IR has retired but I may bounce it back via their successor to point this out.

Don't waste your time.

While it might have been driver shortages each service terminating at Pearse and/or GCD would add up to 30 minutes to each return service. At most you could terminuate one of the two hourly services at Pearse/GCD but I don't think the current circumstances will result in any movement.

Its just not going to happen off peak and peak times its full.

Well I certainly think they should be used to Tralee. Share with the Cork line, 2 direct to Tralee with Mk4, the rest use ICR with the change at Mallow.

I personally find the Mk4 more comfortable and with a push pull, I’d imagine it would be faster than a ICR.

You’re right about Limerick not needing them though when I think about it.

Both have the same top speed however ICRs have better braking/acceleration so handle stopping services better. No gain to having them run to Tralee except add maintinace costs to the infrastructure.

esposito

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Don't waste your time.

While it might have been driver shortages each service terminating at Pearse and/or GCD would add up to 30 minutes to each return service. At most you could terminuate one of the two hourly services at Pearse/GCD but I don't think the current circumstances will result in any movement.

Its just not going to happen off peak and peak times its full.



Both have the same top speed however ICRs have better braking/acceleration so handle stopping services better. No gain to having them run to Tralee except add maintinace costs to the infrastructure.

Does it really matter re the braking/acceleration being probably marginally better on a ICR. It’s not as if there’s a very short distance between stations on Dublin to Tralee line.
MK4 is a push/pull and would be well capable of doing a direct Dublin to Tralee service.
Stops would be Thurles, Limerick Junction, Mallow, Banteer, Millstreet, Rathmore, Killarney, Farranfore, Tralee.

The other direct service with ICR could have more stops like the 17.05 currently does.

goingnowhere

esposito wrote: »

Does it really matter re the braking/acceleration being probably marginally better on a ICR. It’s not as if there’s a very short distance between stations on Dublin to Tralee line.
MK4 is a push/pull and would be well capable of doing a direct Dublin to Tralee service.
Stops would be Thurles, Limerick Junction, Mallow, Banteer, Millstreet, Rathmore, Killarney, Farranfore, Tralee.

The other direct service with ICR could have more stops like the 17.05 currently does.

Except a MK4 could not stop at Farranfore, Banteer or Rathmore.

The performance difference is fairly stark and ICR is quicker off the line and the hybrid upgrade in the works will leave the Mk4 for dust at low speed

Braking wise the ICR also has a slight but noticeable shorter stopping distance as it has EP brakes so has a +2 second advantage in response time and at 160kph, 2 seconds is 90m

Spanish Eyes

Irish Rail website down, but last time I got it to work you cannot pre book your seats. I don't get the logic of this. Surely if they are observing social distancing on board (are they), they can block off the seats that should be kept free. So it's a free for all as usual.

Anyway anyone any idea how SD is working on Inter City without pre booking? Thanks.

esposito

The MKIV travelled to Killarney today on a trial. A sign of things to come? I certainly hope so.

https://thewandererphotos.smugmug.com/2020-Photos/September-2020/i-kMcTPsS?fbclid=IwAR0PF8kawX0iVe_f55HSn1zEw3acXzPHpbBJ90HiiQYXtYh0kQExiwoVvC0

goingnowhere

Mk4 has been to Killarney multiple times. There was an intermittent charter operation in the past.

Mk4 is cleared, Heuston-Cork/Limerick/Killarney (but non stop Mallow Killarney) also cleared Connolly (all platforms) to Dundalk

esposito

goingnowhere wrote: »

Mk4 has been to Killarney multiple times. There was an intermittent charter operation in the past.

Mk4 is cleared, Heuston-Cork/Limerick/Killarney (but non stop Mallow Killarney) also cleared Connolly (all platforms) to Dundalk

Surely they can find a way for it to stop at stations between Mallow and Tralee. If the loco stops past the platform? Or simply lock the doors of the first (or last) two carriages or something like that in order to overcome the short platforms?

I mean when the MK3 operated the line (which had many carriages) I don’t think there were any issues with platforms.

goingnowhere

Mk4 can only stop where the train fits the platform. There are no exemptions, them the rules. Ballybrophy as a result is a bit of challenge.

The Mk3 had grandfather rights but this only applies to stations/routes which were open, new stations, new lines, reopened lines don't count.

esposito

goingnowhere wrote: »

Mk4 can only stop where the train fits the platform. There are no exemptions, them the rules. Ballybrophy as a result is a bit of challenge.

The Mk3 had grandfather rights but this only applies to stations/routes which were open, new stations, new lines, reopened lines don't count.

That’s sh**ty

IE 222

A Mk4 would better serve Waterford than Tralee.

GerardKeating

goingnowhere wrote: »

The Mk3 had grandfather rights but this only applies to stations/routes which were open, new stations, new lines, reopened lines don't count.

So everywhere apart from Ennis/Atherny and Glounthaune /Middleton basically.

goingnowhere

GerardKeating wrote: »

So everywhere apart from Ennis/Atherny and Glounthaune /Middleton basically.

And M3 Parkway

Irish Rail got busted by the CRR when they sent a Mk3 down the WRC, thankfully the safety people intervened before the trip and a shorter train was sent. Cravens at Midleton however slipped through.

Dublin Limerick if it was an express service would be the best use, but the existing Dublin Cork timetable needs the whole fleet if things are normal.

dowlingm

You can send a train wherever you want if you buy selective door opening to ensure doors only open onto a platform. There was talk of a retrofit to the 22Ks at one time but I think they “solved” those issues by qualifying 4-5 car formations instead?

Jamie2k9

goingnowhere wrote: »

And M3 Parkway

Irish Rail got busted by the CRR when they sent a Mk3 down the WRC, thankfully the safety people intervened before the trip and a shorter train was sent. Cravens at Midleton however slipped through.

Dublin Limerick if it was an express service would be the best use, but the existing Dublin Cork timetable needs the whole fleet if things are normal.

This just demonstrates how pointless the CRR are. Its fine for someone to fall off a train on a short platform because train ran on a line before but not ok for it to happen on a new one.

The WRC Mk3 trip should have ran a full set. Midleton was fair to stop as it blocked the road if I am not mistaken.

Trains longer than platfroms should be allowed accross all fleets with additional measures in place however should not be allowed reguarly i.e. part of a daily timetable.

L1011

Grandfathering is absolutely normal across the world and not a CRR invention

Jamie2k9

L1011 wrote: »

Grandfathering is absolutely normal across the world and not a CRR invention

I know its not specific to CRR but safety is safety, its either safe to run a train off a short platform or its not. CRR should have allowed Mk3s to run on all lines and the same applies to all stock.

IE 222

Does the gen van and loco have to fit within the platform length as well or is ot just passenger coaches.

How would South Wexford Line be view if it was to reopen. Would it hold onto the grandfather rights or would all stations/platforms need to rebuilt as a new line. Them haults are nowhere near modern day standards.

dowlingm

IE 222 wrote: »

Does the gen van and loco have to fit within the platform length as well or is ot just passenger coaches.

How would South Wexford Line be view if it was to reopen. Would it hold onto the grandfather rights or would all stations/platforms need to rebuilt as a new line. Them haults are nowhere near modern day standards.

ultimately the modern standards aren’t an affectation but are an attempt to remove obstacles for people of limited mobility to being able to travel, or being able to do so without a carer guiding them across gaps etc. I assume that South Wexford would at minimum need to come up to whatever standard the Ennis-Galway stations did - they were 90m platforms I think?

finbarrk

Del.Monte wrote: »

Afraid I can't make head or tail of your post. Especially the ICR has half the cost per pass/km vs Mk3.....what's that all about?

Was thinking the same. Suppose it's directed to more knowledgeable people.

IE 222

dowlingm wrote: »

ultimately the modern standards aren’t an affectation but are an attempt to remove obstacles for people of limited mobility to being able to travel, or being able to do so without a carer guiding them across gaps etc. I assume that South Wexford would at minimum need to come up to whatever standard the Ennis-Galway stations did - they were 90m platforms I think?

That's what I would've thought as well. Wasn't sure if it's current status would allow for it to reopen as it was.

L1011

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I know its not specific to CRR but safety is safety, its either safe to run a train off a short platform or its not. CRR should have allowed Mk3s to run on all lines and the same applies to all stock.

That's not how grandfathering works

You do not introduce a new risk - you only accept a risk base you have with the expectation that you will - eventually - remove it.

The risk of short platforms is not a risk attached to the rolling stock; its down to the stations. A new build station cannot accept a longer consist than its platforms (unless SDO is used), end of.

Same way that sharp curve platforms can't be built anymore.