Lions Tour

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117704476#Comment_117704476

"Corbisiero won him the 3rd test against Aus because up to that point he insisted on playing the Welsh lads"

Corbisiero started the first and third tests. He missed the second through injury.

So the guy that Gatland picked helped the team to win. And this makes him a bad coach because...

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117704107#Comment_117704107

Why do you choose to leave out the context of that draw?

Buer

I completely understand why Gatland is disliked by many in Irish rugby. He has mellowed with age (and possibly a little more humility after the Chiefs debacle of a season) but certainly was antagonistic and inflammatory towards his opponents. I think most people harbour bitterness towards him based on his selections however. There's a bizarre belief that it's personal even when there's a genuine logic at play for his omission of specific players. Henderson, BOD and now Beirne are players who didn't get selected at key moments and Irish fans refuse to accept the rationale for looking to other players.

However, I will never get the insistence from some to try and undermine his achievements and successes. Did he knock it out of the park every season? Absolutely not. In fact, if an Irish coach had some of his seasons, he'd have been sacked. For example, they won the GS in 2008 but finished 4th for the next 3 seasons. They also only beat Australia once and Argentina once from top tier opposition in those 3 years of autumn tests (which included only drawing with Fiji in Cardiff).

But that doesn't mean Wales didn't deliver to an incredibly high level under his guidance at key times also. His ability to motivate his teams and get key selections/calls right on the biggest stage is exceptional. He brought Wales to 2 RWC semi finals and they were 4 minutes away from another in 2015 against South Africa. He brought a Lions team close to a series win in NZ. NZ have only failed to beat the Lions on 11 of 41 occasions in history and 2 of those 11 were against Gatland. It doesn't matter if there was a dubious call in the last minute of the game to secure the draw. The fact is that they did. There are dodgy calls in plenty of games. He brought Wasps from having finished 7th the previous season to being champions three times in a row as well as European champions.

People can call him lucky, boring, whatever they want. The statistics and trophy cabinets are going to utlimately reflect his career more than anything.

Captain_Crash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117704723#Comment_117704723

Let’s face it…. If it wasn’t for a baffling decision from Poite in the last minute of the third test that series would have been lost!

Even in the 2nd test NZ had the ascendency until the red card and it still look a Farrell pen at the death to snatch victory, it was a lucky draw!

Madeoface

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117703467#Comment_117703467

A hidden gem that...round of applause...

Podge_irl

Win on Saturday and Gatland will likely go down as the greatest ever Lions coach.

arsebiscuits1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705338#Comment_117705338

There's not an achievement in rugby where luck hasn't played some part.

If you're happy to dismiss the Lions achievement in 2017 I hope you're as happy to chalk off all the other ones

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117704992#Comment_117704992

I for one think the likes of Eddie Jones and Gatland play the media game effectively, look at Rassie, played a blinder last week, all the rugby nerds could talk about was him.

The schtick is fairly transparent but effective it seems.

I also admire those that play it straight

Dont care what nationality he picks if he doesn't pick a pudding

Statistically I think he is poor but has been good in patches, while the IRFU has played it better than the WRU over the last 20 at club leve, they have produced a lot of quality players at least on par with here ( similar numbers playing the game) and far better than scotland (less people playing)

Captain_Crash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705469#Comment_117705469

I didn’t dismiss or it say anywhere that it wasn’t an achievement. But there is a difference in celebrating a hard fought series and lauding the greatness of a result that needed a lot of luck along the way!

Anyway it was in response to someone saying the draw was incredible, I was giving my opinion of the swing and roundabouts involved for it to play out that way!

Doesn’t mean I think Gats is a bad coach, I think he’s one of the all time greats! Saturday will be a battering tho unless we try and play ball! If The Lions win… it’ll be Sir Warren come the new year I think!

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705469#Comment_117705469

not sure a terrible refereeing performance would be considered luck

I mean the 2011 WC final were France unlucky? No they were robbed by a ref who couldn't handle the pressure

TRC10

Gatland is a better coach than Schmidt.

Gatland was one red card and one last minute penalty away from having Wales in 2 World Cup Finals.

Joe got annihilated in the 1/4s in both his World Cups.

Gatland also got Wales out of the group of death and knocked out the hosts in 2015 with one of the biggest injury crisis ever.

Gatland also has 2 more Grand Slams.

ClanofLams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705683#Comment_117705683

Yeah their CVs just aren't comparable in truth in terms of top tier achievements, despite Schmidt being an outstanding coach and the best Ireland ever had.

The argument that Gatland's lows were worse doesn't stand up given he was at Wales for twice as long as Schmidt was at Ireland. Schmidt's sixth year was by far his worst and had he not opted to go then he may suffered the same lows Gatland did at Wales.

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705714#Comment_117705714

Schmidt is the best coach Ireland ever had 😀

His biggest mistake was announcing he was going too early, to what extent it affected 2019 is hard to say, but it had an effect

But you cant say he would have had the barren years Gatland had when he never had them

Losing to Japan was the biggest mistake of the year, NZ would have trounced wales just as badly

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705789#Comment_117705789

It had nothing to do with Joe announcing he was leaving. Coaches do that all the time before World Cups.

Henry did it in 2011, Gatland did it in 2019. It didn't effect them.

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705683#Comment_117705683

look at the squad, they had plenty of players

one man won that for them and it wasn't gatland

ClanofLams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705789#Comment_117705789

Think it was more to do with style of play being figured and being unwilling to change style or personnel. The whole year was a disaster from the hammering in Dublin against Ireland to getting trounced in Cardiff and damn near held scoreless onto the World Cup. That is a barren year.

Also weren't you saying earlier Gatland didn't deserve any credit for the 2017 Lions tour against only a reasonable NZ side? Whatever they were in 2017, they were a much lesser side two years, unacceptable for Ireland to get hammered off the park.

Either way there is no comparison between 3 Grand Slams, 2 RWC semi finals, Lions etc and Schmidt's record.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705818#Comment_117705818

You can try to make it nothing to do with Gatland if you like

but he still did it.

2 RWC semi-finals vs 2 quarter-final thrashings

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705714#Comment_117705714

But his lows categorically were worse. Our worst finish in the 6Ns under Joe was 3rd. As has been pointed out earlier, after the 2008 GS Gatland led Wales to 3 consecutive 4th place finishes. His record vs SH opposition with Wales is awful, even in those years when he was all conquering in the 6Ns.

I just dont understand how people can say that their CVs aren't comparable. Let's look at them side by side. Since Gatland was sacked from the Ireland job:

[Table]Competition |Gatland|Schmidt

Domestic League|3 in 3 seasons|1 in 3 seasons

Challenge Cup|1 in 3 seasons|1 in 3 seasons

HEC|1 in 3 seasons|2 in 3 seasons

6 Nations|3 (3 GSs) in 10 seasons|3 (1 GS) in 6 seasons

RWC|2 SFs in 3 attempts|0 SFs in 2 attempts

Lions|1 series win|N/A[/table]

Gatland had a few years with Ireland and Connacht before that too obviously, which Joe didn't have, but given the length of time both served as head coaches I'd argue those are very comparable CVs.

I'm not trying to say he is a bad coach, he's not. He's fantastic at certain things. But it is also fair to say he has shown some real limitations too, particularly the poor record vs SH teams with Wales. Surely there's room for us to acknowledge that while also acknowledging his successes?

molloyjh

I see the table functionality has changed. I've taken a lot of rubbish from this new upgrade, but some things are sacred. Feck this!

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705683#Comment_117705683

You see this post sums up my issue with some people who big up Gatland. The red card vs France was their own doing, yet is framed here as serious misfortune. The insane number of injuries we had in 2015 was genuine misfortune which is framed as a woeful failing by Joe. The complete lack of perspective or balance is crazy.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705960#Comment_117705960

The red card v France was hardly Gatland's fault. I'm not framing it as misfortune, red cards happen. But equally, you can't blame Gatland for the rash actions of one player. Was it Schmidt's fault Stander got sent off v SA or that Aki got sent off v Samoa? No, of course it wasn't.

We should have beat Argentina with the players we had. The only position where there was a notable drop off from 1st to 2nd choice was out half. The fact that Madigan had never started a test match vs tier 1 opposition prior to the RWC was a woeful failing by Joe, it just was. There were plenty of November tests and summer tours to Argentina in 2014 to give him starts in the 10 jersey.

Now I'm not saying Madigan was the reason we lost. The whole performance was a disaster.

He also picked Keith Earls at 13.

ClanofLams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705907#Comment_117705907

I got the jist despite table functionality issues! I do think the time at Connacht and Ireland is somewhat relevant, both sides were very poor that he dramatically improved, probably Connacht's best professional era seasons under him until Lam arrived. It's another thing that arguably Schmidt hasn't proved, in fairness he never got the chance to, I have no doubt he could as his very structured style would probably suit a team struggling even more so. You could say Ireland were a shambles when Schmidt took over but I think it's pretty clear they were underperforming rather than as limited as the Connacht/Irish sides Gatland had.

But leaving that aside, It's also worth pointing out that in both 2009 and 2011 Wales won 3/5 which was the same record as second and third, they came fourth on points difference on whatever the differential was, those aren't very bad six nations really. 2011 obviously ended with them pretty unfortunate not to make the World Cup final losing by a point. So I would say that is one bad six nations really.

Ultimately the top tier honours of 3 Grand Slams v 1 are a big difference and the World Cups are a massive difference. Lions too a factor. Gatland's sides always deliver on the biggest stages which unfortunately wasn't the case with Schmidt for whatever reason. 2015 was unfortunate for Schmidt and I'm not sure Ireland losing 5/6 key players could have won with any coach but 2019 was a disaster that he bears responsibility for just as gets credit for an outstanding 2018.

Gatland is in the elite tier of coaches and Schmidt would be just one rung below in my view.

Richie_Rich89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117705907#Comment_117705907

You seem to be not taking World Cups into account when considering lows. Gatland didn't lose to Japan or get hosed twice in consecutive quarter-finals as Wales coach.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117706005#Comment_117706005

But the GSs and SFs equate to just 4 games. And there's no mention there at all of the massive failings vs SH opposition.

Also, the quality of players available to Schmidt is counted against him while the massive improvement in players for Gatland with Ireland is ignored. Either factor that stuff in for both or don't at all.

And the 4th place finish excuses enable you to overlook certain failings, but are you giving Joe the same benefit of the doubt? For example, in the 2019 RWC we faced NZ in the QF while they faced a poor France. Major luck of the draw there. I'd argue we'd have beaten France. Would Wales have beaten either NZ or SA?

Again, I'm not at all in the Gatland is a bad coach camp. He very clearly isn't. But let's talk about this with a bit more balance because there are failings in there along with some fantastic successes.

ClanofLams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117706082#Comment_117706082

I mean that's the way tournaments work. Singular games are vital. There's a huge difference between winning a Championship and a Grand Slam even though it obviously usually comes down to a single game. Had England won in Dublin in 2011 to complete the Grand Slam the tenure of Martin Johnson would have a far different complexion and may have even lasted longer. Three Grand Slams vs one is a big big difference.

The 4th places are not excuses, it is a fact they had the same record in 2009 and 2011 as the team that finished second, they aren't barren years. Yeah he had a poor record vs SH teams with Wales but the Six Nations and World Cups are just far more important than Autumn Internationals or Summer tours.

I wouldn't have any confidence Ireland would have beaten France personally. They won comfortably in the Six Nations but Ireland's decline picked up pace in the months ahead and France improved. The six nations was a few months on from Ireland beating NZ and when the RWC rolled around, Ireland lost by 40 odd. Ireland's decline was dramatic and fast.

Gatland just has an incredible record at every level. Wales have won four Grand Slams in the last forty years, Gatland has been in charge for three of them. Aside from 1987, Wales have reached the RWC semis twice, both with Gatland. Excellent record with the Lions thus far.

Schmidt is the best coach Ireland ever had but in my view, his resume is not comparable with that of Gatland.

Podge_irl

We should have beat Argentina with the players we had. The only position where there was a notable drop off from 1st to 2nd choice was out half

I'm afraid that's just not true. You could not have picked 5 worse players to remove based on the gameplan Ireland were employing. The defence relied on playing narrow and slowing the ball down in midfield. Every single replacement we had was significantly worse in defence and slowing the ball. That's why Kearney found himself constantly isolated on the wing. I would completely absolve Schmidt of any blame for that game.

All that said, Gatland's record is comparable to Schmidt but I would still consider it clearly ahead. It becomes something of a ideological question as to how you rate consistent very goodness against intermittent excellence.

Richie_Rich89

I think in all likelihood the Irish would have still lost the 2015 QF to Argentina even if O'Connell, O'Brien, Sexton, Payne and whoever the fifth injured player was were available. Serious defensive flaws became apparent in that match. They would still have been there with different personnel.

Let's not forget that had SOB been red carded in the opening 30 seconds of the French match of the 2015 RWC, Ireland would have undoubtedly lost that match and ended up with a quarter against NZ.

AbusesToilets

The biggest knock formme against Schmidt was Ireland repeatedly coming out flat in important games. Time again, we wilted when under pressure, despite the team being full of players with experience winning. Gatland had consistently shown that he can motivate his teams to elevate their performances. Look at the 1/4 in 2011, Wales blew us off the park. Look at the times the Welsh had to go to Paris or Twickenham to win the 6ns. I'd usually back them to do that, whereas I never had confidence an Irish team would.

thebaz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117706322#Comment_117706322

Totally disagree - without Sexton and POC they lost leadership - Payne and O'Brien just made it impossible . If Sexton and POC had been on the field those defensive lapses would not have been allowed occur.