Air Conditioner

dhaughton99

How unusual is it to have air conditioning in an apartment in Ireland? Just walking the dog and came across a new Cluid development with a mix of houses and apartments and all the apartments have a big Mitsubishi air conditioner unit on the wall of each balcony.

Eric Cartman

those are air to water heat pumps , work on the same principal but are not air conditioners.

Muahahaha

Eric Cartman wrote: »

those are air to water heat pumps , work on the same principal but are not air conditioners.

They can also be air conditioners, it depends on what the unit inside the apartment is. The outdoor unit will look the same but indoors you can have an air to air system which provides both heat in winter and if you want air conditioning in summer. Have one myself and last week when it hit 25c I got home to a roasting hot stuffy house. Turned on the air to air system in reverse mode and it cooled down the house to 17c in about 10 minutes. It was only the second time this summer I used it as air con but it does a great job.

For anyone replacing a storage heating system in an apartment an air to air heat pump system is a good way to go. There is a higher initial investment but they are remarkably efficient on electricity and a world apart compared to using those awful storage heaters that are ubiquitous in Irish apartments. A huge amount of apartments in countries like Spain, Portugal, Italy operate off an air to air heat pump system that gives both air con in summer and heat in winter.

brisan

Muahahaha wrote: »

They can also be air conditioners, it depends on what the unit inside the apartment is. The outdoor unit will look the same but indoors you can have an air to air system which provides both heat in winter and if you want air conditioning in summer. Have one myself and last week when it hit 25c I got home to a roasting hot stuffy house. Turned on the air to air system in reverse mode and it cooled down the house to 17c in about 10 minutes. It was only the second time this summer I used it as air con but it does a great job.

For anyone replacing a storage heating system in an apartment an air to air heat pump system is a good way to go. There is a higher initial investment but they are remarkably efficient on electricity and a world apart compared to using those awful storage heaters that are ubiquitous in Irish apartments. A huge amount of apartments in countries like Spain, Portugal, Italy operate off an air to air heat pump system that gives both air con in summer and heat in winter.

A lot of management companies would not allow units of that size to be placed on external walls or balconies of an apartment complex.

Bio Mech

Xgemone wrote: »

What's so surprising? Can't people use air conditioning?

Maybe it was surprising 9 months ago. You know, when the last post was made.

ted1

dhaughton99 wrote: »

How unusual is it to have air conditioning in an apartment in Ireland? Just walking the dog and came across a new Cluid development with a mix of houses and apartments and all the apartments have a big Mitsubishi air conditioner unit on the wall of each balcony.

That’s a heat pump. Very common in new builds. Dolly money to retrofit

Atlantic Dawn

Xgemone wrote: »

What's so surprising? Can't people use air conditioning?

Judging by people I see during the summer months driving around with the windows down in their cars with some of the best climate control known to man the answer would be no. Either thick or penny pinching the 2mpg they would save turning it off.

Atlantic Dawn

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Judging by people I see during the summer months driving around with the windows down in their cars with some of the best climate control known to man the answer would be no. Either thick or penny pinching the 2mpg they would save turning it off.

Some people like fresh air, it’s free.

Atlantic Dawn

Dav010 wrote: »

Some people like fresh air, it’s free.

Peasant people.

Del2005

Dav010 wrote: »

Some people like fresh air, it’s free.

If you are driving in a town or city it's not fresh air. Climate control with a regularly replaced cabin filer is fresher and modern systems don't use much fuel.

Del2005

Del2005 wrote: »

If you are driving in a town or city it's not fresh air. Climate control with a regularly replaced cabin filer is fresher and modern systems don't use much fuel.

Everyone to their own.

3DataModem

I think it has been proven (at least by mythbusters, but also elsewhere) that driving with the windows down costs more in terms of MPG than driving with the windows up and AC on.

Mrs OBumble

Air con is useful in hot climates.

In Ireland, it's simply irrelevant

Harry Palmr

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Air con is useful in hot climates.

In Ireland, it's simply irrelevant

Far from it. Ireland is damp. In winter a/c really helpful at keeping windows fog free.

As for topic at hand. A/C air to air heat pumps are cost effective systems.

Sleeper12

Mrs OBumble wrote:

In Ireland, it's simply irrelevant

I have to disagree. Forgetting about the comfort levels everyone can enjoy, many people can't leave windows open during summer months due to hey fever. AC is a life saver for some people. I can't drive with a window down nor can I open windows in the house during the summer. AC units can also heat up the room. It can purify the air & some have a dehumidifier built in.

I can't imagine life without AC tbh

Yellow_Fern

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Air con is useful in hot climates.

In Ireland, it's simply irrelevant

This is a very common attitude but the reality is that it is increasing common to have houses become too hot in high summer. A/c is a logical solution to seek but the reality is that its not needed in homes and overheating can be solved with other cheaper technology such brise-soleil on south facing windows or modifications to the ventilation system.

Air purification and reduction of humidity is a great aspect of A/C but you can do it far cheaper with MHRV

micosoft

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Air con is useful in hot climates.

In Ireland, it's simply irrelevant

AC in humid "damp" climates like Ireland is essential in cars to dehumidify.

TBH most cars and indeed what gets put into homes is not AC but Climate Control that does a lot more. Sets humidity, reduces dust/allergens, ensures appropriate air circulation. As we move to A+ rated and in some cases passive homes that are literally airtight, Climate Control is going to become a more common feature in Irish homes. As others have pointed out - most likely in form of reversible heat pumps which suit the narrow temperature band we are lucky to have. These are more economic than GFCH what was the standard. Also the increased wealth in Ireland, and the increased cost of housing means these systems are not the luxury they once were. I think someone else pointed out they are a god-send of allergy sufferers. I would never go back. It's extraordinary how pleasant a instantly dehumidified bathroom is in winter without a noisy fan.

Marcusm

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Peasant people.

On a long drive I far prefer to avoid long periods of air con/climate control and I will open the windows as it is less dehydrating and tiring. I am far from a peasant (a few generations at least).

Muahahaha

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I have to disagree. Forgetting about the comfort levels everyone can enjoy, many people can't leave windows open during summer months due to hey fever. AC is a life saver for some people. I can't drive with a window down nor can I open windows in the house during the summer. AC units can also heat up the room. It can purify the air & some have a dehumidifier built in.

I can't imagine life without AC tbh

Yeah Ive an air to air heat pump that I never bought for its AC function but now I have it I love it. Would only use it as an air conditioner perhaps 8-10 days a year but its nice to cool down a house that has heated up like a greenhouse on a hot day. It also operates over wifi/smartphone so on a really hot day I can have the house already cooled down to 16 or 17 degrees before I even get home. I dont worry about the cost either as the heat pump is delivering about 3-4kwh of hot or cold air for every 1kwh of electricity used, its a really efficient system that will have paid for itself in a few years.

C14N

I think Europeans in general just have kind of a cultural idea that air-conditioning is for sissies and that our weather is only hot for a bit anyway so no point in getting it (this attitude persists even in places that have consistently hotter summers than Ireland too), but living in apartments in Dublin the last few years I've had an awful lot of very hot and humid days where I would have loved for something to help cool the place down a bit. Despite the fact that it's supposedly pointless because it's never hot enough, almost any commercial building will still have it (the one office I worked in that didn't and relied on fans was a nightmare to work in during even the early months of summer). If it wasn't for the negative environmental impact, I'd wish we had a good bit more here.

Yellow_Fern

C14N wrote: »

I think Europeans in general just have kind of a cultural idea that air-conditioning is for sissies and that our weather is only hot for a bit anyway so no point in getting it (this attitude persists even in places that have consistently hotter summers than Ireland too), but living in apartments in Dublin the last few years I've had an awful lot of very hot and humid days where I would have loved for something to help cool the place down a bit. Despite the fact that it's supposedly pointless because it's never hot enough, almost any commercial building will still have it (the one office I worked in that didn't and relied on fans was a nightmare to work in during even the early months of summer). If it wasn't for the negative environmental impact, I'd wish we had a good bit more here.

Houses that get too warm in Ireland are basically suffering from design flaws, eg carelessly designed south facing windows. There are a lot of options to keeping a house cool that don’t require A/C and have lower running costs like external shutters or permeant decorative meshes by windows.It is an issue that will get worse due to the rend for massive windows continues.

C14N

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Houses that get too warm in Ireland are basically suffering from design flaws, eg carelessly designed south facing windows. There are a lot of options to keeping a house cool that don’t require A/C and have lower running costs like external shutters or permeant decorative meshes by windows.It is an issue that will get worse due to the rend for massive windows continues.

I'm going to take your word for it, but an AC is a lot cheaper than redesigning an apartment block to more optimally face the sun, and people generally don't want shutters to block out the light on sunny days. In my previous apartment (on second floor), even on the west-facing balcony temperatures were frequently 25+C in the evening.

Yellow_Fern

C14N wrote: »

I'm going to take your word for it, but an AC is a lot cheaper than redesigning an apartment block to more optimally face the sun, and people generally don't want shutters to block out the light on sunny days. In my previous apartment (on second floor), even on the west-facing balcony temperatures were frequently 25+C in the evening.

I see where you are coming from but it depends a lot. Some houses probably cant be fixed. Some too hot houses are too hot due to poor design of the ducted ventilation system. Correcting this will keep the house less humid too. I am a noise freak so the drone of AC bothers me but it would suits other people. With a brise soleil you still see through the window, just the glass is in shade at noon during summer but not in the evenings or when it is winter. very simple low tech solution. Another factor is the decline in hard plaster walls which can keep a house cool over a hot summer. Drywall just won't do this.

Sleeper12

Just to put Irish weather in context. 20c humid night in Dublin can be much hotter and stickier than Spain or Portugal at 25c

ted1

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Just to put Irish weather in context. 20c humid night in Dublin can be much hotter and stickier than Spain or Portugal at 25c

I’ve been in 51deg heat in the Middle East that felt cooler than a hot day in Ireland

Sleeper12

ted1 wrote:

I’ve been in 51deg heat in the Middle East that felt cooler than a hot day in Ireland

I've heard Polish say something similar about Ireland being colder than Poland in the winter even though actual temperatures say otherwise. Windchill and humidity I'm guessing

JimmyVik

In my place there is an air to air heat pump in the living area only.
Heats it up for pennies in the winter.
But in summer you can reverse it an oh my, the ac is lovely. Worth it just for that aspect of it.

Graces7

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Peasant people.

And proud of it!

Sleeper12

JimmyVik wrote:

In my place there is an air to air heat pump in the living area only. Heats it up for pennies in the winter. But in summer you can reverse it an oh my, the ac is lovely. Worth it just for that aspect of it.

It's the heat pumps that will make domestic ac huge in Ireland. You might not spend a few thousand on ac but when it comes free as part of the heat pump then you will definitely use it at least a few times during the summer months.

Yellow_Fern

Sleeper12 wrote: »

It's the heat pumps that will make domestic ac huge in Ireland. You might not spend a few thousand on ac but when it comes free as part of the heat pump then you will definitely use it at least a few times during the summer months.

That is an interesting point. Cooling is most needed in high pressure weather in summer when there is little wind which won't be so helpful to meeting carbon needs even if heat pumps are extremely efficient.

Sleeper12

Yellow_Fern wrote:

That is an interesting point. Cooling is most needed in high pressure weather in summer when there is little wind which won't be so helpful to meeting carbon needs even if heat pumps are extremely efficient.

Well if you read in the EV threads they'd have you believe that all the wind power goes into their cars.

There is no denying ACs aren't great for the planet. I do l think that very few people run for more than the hottest days of the year though.

C14N

Sleeper12 wrote: »

It's the heat pumps that will make domestic ac huge in Ireland. You might not spend a few thousand on ac but when it comes free as part of the heat pump then you will definitely use it at least a few times during the summer months.

Are most heatpumps that are put into homes these days reversible like that so they can both heat and cool?

Sleeper12

C14N wrote:

Are most heatpumps that are put into homes these days reversible like that so they can both heat and cool?

I can't answer that with certainty but I assumed all modern heat pumps work in this way

micosoft

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I've heard Polish say something similar about Ireland being colder than Poland in the winter even though actual temperatures say otherwise. Windchill and humidity I'm guessing

Damp. Nothing like Ireland to be damp. Dry cold of continental weather much more pleasant.

JimmyVik

C14N wrote: »

Are most heatpumps that are put into homes these days reversible like that so they can both heat and cool?

sssh.
Next you'll see the green party either disabling the Air con feature or more likely taxing the **** out of it.

Yellow_Fern

People who use the cooling feature in summer, is that via underfloor heating/ rads or a mini split system? I would have thought rads and UFH would be very slow to cool a very hot house

Sleeper12

Yellow_Fern wrote:

People who use the cooling feature in summer, is that via underfloor heating/ rads or a mini split system? I would have thought rads and UFH would be very slow to cool a very hot house

A heat pump uses reverse AC to heat the air. In summer this is reversed again to cool the air. For AC you need an Indoor unit. It blows heated & cooled air. It can be used as a fan, dehumidifier and some purity the air

Muahahaha

C14N wrote: »

Are most heatpumps that are put into homes these days reversible like that so they can both heat and cool?

Can only speak for the Mitsubishi air to air heat pump and indoor unit I have. I looked at three different Mitsubishi models and they all had a function for air con, dehumidifying and air purifying so it would seem standard at least with that brand. Id use the air con function maybe 8-10 days a year and even then only for an hour at a time. But its great to have it for the odd hot and stuffy day

0lddog

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

People who use the cooling feature in summer, is that via underfloor heating/ rads or a mini split system? I would have thought rads and UFH would be very slow to cool a very hot house

Cooling tends to create condensation on whatever is the cooled surface - Its not a great idea to cool floors / rads.

Cooling really works best with A2A units - The indoor units are designed to enable the condensate to be piped to a drain

Yellow_Fern

WantedPzen wrote: »

Ireland is a rich country, so it shouldn't surprise you that a lot of houses here have air conditioners. It's a normal situation for England or the US too.

US has a very different climate with much hotter summers and vastly cheaper electricity, so you expect it there. Plus they tend to use air instead of water heating so its less of a hassle. I think air con is rare in England.

Grawns

I must admit I'm intrigued. I've become a convert to air purification recently as I bought a phillips kit for the bedroom and my asthma symptoms have been significantly reduced. How does it work as an air conditioner if you don't have a central ventilation system. I'm in an a3 house with gfch and solar power. Would be happy to get rid of the gas if I could have heating and clean air. Worth the investment.

Yellow_Fern

Grawns wrote: »

I must admit I'm intrigued. I've become a convert to air purification recently as I bought a phillips kit for the bedroom and my asthma symptoms have been significantly reduced. How does it work as an air conditioner if you don't have a central ventilation system. I'm in an a3 house with gfch and solar power. Would be happy to get rid of the gas if I could have heating and clean air. Worth the investment.

One of the heat pumps experts could chime in about using heat pumps to purify the air but I will say many people like myself have gas and mechanical ventilation with purifies the air. I imagine its more effective solution than moving to a heat pump

Grawns

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

One of the heat pumps experts could chime in about using heat pumps to purify the air but I will say many people like myself have gas and mechanical ventilation with purifies the air. I imagine its more effective solution than moving to a heat pump

Thanks, mechanical ventilation is something I'm definitely interested in. They build these super insulated houses and then punch a hole in every room. I just love the idea of heat recovery as the solar is very efficient as we're fully south facing and triple glazed. Need to study all the options as there is definitely crossover. Filtered air is my ultimate goal though . So allergic.

Sleeper12

Heat pumps can heat, cool, dry (dehumidify), fan & purify the air. They ain't cheap. Split unit covering 2 rooms costs 3500 to 4500 euro. This would be an air heat pump. Other heat pumps take heat from the ground and these are very expensive to retro fit. You are talking 15000 to 25000.

Muahahaha

Sleeper have you ever come across anyone using geothermal to heat their house? It seems pretty rare probably because the upfront cost of around 25k is so high. But I believe once installed your electricity bills go down to next to nothing as you're getting free heat from the ground.

There was a guy on that program Great Irish Houses who tried it but not all land is suitable for geothermal and his wasnt. It still cost him something like 5k to drill the holes to find out so it can be a risky prospect.

Sleeper12

Muahahaha wrote:

Sleeper have you ever come across anyone using geothermal to heat their house? It seems pretty rare probably because the upfront cost of around 25k is so high. But I believe once installed your electricity bills go down to next to nothing as you're getting free heat from the ground.

I don't do that type of plumbing & I don't usually see the inside of new homes until they are over 10 years old. I believe that geothermal /ground heat pumps are installed in some new homes. Part of the planning permission is that you must have some sort of green energy. Some have solar some heat pumps. They are very expensive to retro fit & I don't believe that the average home would recover the outlay in savings on bills.


Once installed the electricity bill will go up rather than down (unless you were already heating your home with electricity) but you will no longer need gas or oil. Your overall energy bill will go down

Muahahaha

Yeah it would be difficult to see a pay back of 25k from lower energy bills and then I guess you have the control units themselves which might need replacing over time.

There is another system called a water to water heat pump which extracts the heat from a body of water like a river or a lake and delivers it to the house via a heat pump. I wonder will that ever take off, in theory you could heat multiple houses from it and most large towns are built on rivers.

handlemaster

Muahahaha wrote: »

Yeah it would be difficult to see a pay back of 25k from lower energy bills and then I guess you have the control units themselves which might need replacing over time.

There is another system called a water to water heat pump which extracts the heat from a body of water like a river or a lake and delivers it to the house via a heat pump. I wonder will that ever take off, in theory you could heat multiple houses from it and most large towns are built on rivers.

https://www.gva.ch/en/Site/Geneve-Aeroport/News/2020-2016/Des-2025,-Geneve-Aeroport-rafraichira-et-chauffera

Muahahaha

Got home to a really stuffy house this evening and flicked on the air conditioner function on the air to air heat pump. My god it is just pure bliss, the house was 27c inside when I got home and now I have the living room and kitchen down to a cool 17c.

Went back upstairs to use the toilet and leaving the room was like getting hit with a blast of heat and then coming back down into the living room was like walking into a fridge. Its not that often you need air con in Ireland but when you do it makes stuffy hot days so much more comfortable.

Yellow_Fern

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117621895#Comment_117621895

No doubt. I think this kind of luxury could more and more seen as a must have, however, this type of lifestyle creep is so incongruent with climate goals. The gov is aiming to reduce our carbon emissions to 1960s levels within 9 years. No idea how that is going to happen.

Atlantic Dawn

One of the problems of the current madness to insulate olden days homes up like they are going to be moved to the Arctic permanently is during the summer when we get 25 degree plus they are pretty much uninhabitable.