How practical was our education, really?

Rob Humanoid

Hello,

I'm in my late forties, so I can't speak for the younger generation (or their education system). But I'd be interested in anyone's thoughts on this matter.

I'm still quite resentful about the Irish Educational system growing up in the 70s and 80s.

I'm still confused why we had to learn so much rubbish instead of learning important life skills or subjects that we had an aptitude or interest in. Don't get me wrong, education is obviously critical in a functioning society, and obviously one needs a broad vista to begin with.

I wished school had been more focused on peoples skills and interest. For example, I was terrible at math. I always felt basic math would have been plenty for me over my life. But yet, I spent years learning silly equations and formulas (that I never understood or wanted to). And have no relevance in my life today, and have not helped me get a career. Of course, for other people, who want to pursue a career in advanced math it's critical (sciences, etc). Good on them!

I'd also been learning French for nearly 7 years. What for? I've been to France twice in my entire adult life. What if I wanted to emigrate to another country? Is it really practical to learn a foreign language that you'll never use, if you have no interest in it. Surely for me, I could have put that time into another subject that I had an interest in.

Ordinance survey maps? :rolleyes: Religion? I wasn't taught first aid either.
Music Theory on a recorder, really? Music Appreciation? Having to play rugby?

Anyway, what I'm saying is, that boy did I waste a lot of time learning stuff that I'd never use over my entire adult life. I'd like to see a system that is more focused on the individual and where their talents lie.

Does anyone else feel the same? I really hope the system has changed.

Incidentally... I became a professional artist/graphic designer and sound designer. School did not help me here. Obviously college did.

Thanks,

Rob.

PS - Yes, my grammar and spelling suck. That's why I design stuff for a living.

James Brown

Learning by rote really sucked any interest out of many a topic.
Yes, religion. At least I learned enough to decide to stop being Catholic.

utyh2ikcq9z76b

Didn't it set you up for getting out of bed going somewhere and obeying orders 5 days a week.

Seamai

In relation to maths it was by far my worst subject, in a 5th year exam I got 10% and scraped a D in pass maths in the LC with some pretty intensive grinds but the thing is I'm actually really good with figures, I always have been, I can do all the basics in my head without ever having to resort to a calculator and at 55 the basics along with things like percentages and fractions are all I ever needed. However, where I fell down was on the other stuff, the things I never use, algebra, theroms, logarithmic tables and geometry. I remember once in 6th year when struggling with the simplest algebra equation and asking the teacher to explain to me when this might be of use in in adult life and his response was "it's on the syllabus, so you have to learn it"

RandomViewer

I was happy enough with mine, Maths(honours) ,English, tech drawing ,building construction, woodwork, metalwork, science and art, PE and religion (usually free class) once a week. Depends where you lived and what school you went to

you've to manage groups of thirty odd rascals in an enclosed space for seven hours a day while covering the basics that each of them might want to have without them killing each other or anyone else

id say we do ok as a rule tbh

joe40

"Education is what remains when everything you learned has been forgotten" apparently said by Einstein but I can't be sure.
We only know what we do all the time. All knowledge and facts will be forgotten it is the skills, work ethic, and personal interactions that are important.

NeonCookies

I'd be thinking on the same lines as Joe40.

I suppose it depends on what you see as being the purpose of school e.g. is it to train you for your chosen job / provide you with a wide base of knowledge / expose you to subjects and develop skills across a range of areas help you to find out what your interests are. Quite possibly all of these things.

I 100% agree that for Maths and English in particular there should be practical courses available which focus mainly on everyday life skills - percentages, fractions, understanding graphs, budgeting, form filling, letter writing, job applications, record keeping, reading comprehension, practical written expression etc.

For the likes of the options such as music, history, geography, art etc I do think it's important to have a grounding (or to have had opportunity to get a grounding) in a wide range of areas even if you don't necessarily use the knowledge everyday. My career is not something that falls into any of the typical school subjects, but I certainly do not consider my studies a waste of time. For example, going for a walk and wondering what type of valley / rock that is and being able to give an educated guess (admittedly knowledge is often refreshed and checked using Google, but I know enough to know rocks are formed in different ways for example which gives an appreciation for the world around us), hearing a piece of music and appreciating the layers of instrumentation in it, thinking critically about a news article using critical thinking skills first learned in history etc. Languages is another one that while you may not use it (I studied French but ended up living in Spain for two years) they develop your understanding of a culture, see that other languages may not function in the same way as your own, and you get the opportunity to appreciate how hard it is for others to learn English etc. There can be many benefits of learning that extend beyond the actual subject matter and this should be highlighted more I think.

Disclaimer: I certainly did not think this way when I was a teenager and teenagers likely wouldn't care if you explain it, but it's something I can appreciate now!

petronius

Often how you take to a subject and how well you do is teacher dependent

One thing which was good about the LC system, is you were some what forced to do a combination of disciplines.
Most on top of Irish, English and Math, had to do a Science Subject, a Business subject and a foreign language, and another academic subject, often if you were interested in business or science it would be another one of those.

In some countries you are forced to specify at 16 and often then drop a STEM or Business or Academic subject, which is too young.

I think the points system of the CAO often punishes those who do the "harder" subjects, one of my colleagues, she did Biology, Geography and Business, since they would be easier for her to get points for what she wanted to do in college, she ended up transferring and training as a teacher funnily enough

I know an economist, who wanted to do chemistry, did biology and chemistry, forced to do economics as well, which he complained about - but by 6th year

jester77

I'd be of a similar mindset to yourself OP. Although I wouldn't rule out the French. I did German myself, didn't have too much interest in it, but I ended up in Germany 20 years ago, and the bit that I did learn was invaluable and it came back fast. Still here today. There are a lot of things that they should teach more of in school - taxes, nutrition, economics, politics, etc are of much more importance than alot of what they teach.

Although I do like the improvements in the education system compared to when I was going. My son doesn't spend too much time at his desk, most of it is now hands on and interactive. Keeps the kids interested compared to sitting at a desk the whole day listening to someone drone on. Plus the continuous assessments are so much better than one all or nothing exam at the end.

petronius

At best I would say it is mixed. No doubt language teaching should benefit from access to content on the interent in different languages. Some years ago language teacher i know found some of the tranlations done as home work were obviously google tranlate and cheating using the open book of the interent.

Arithmetic skills are not what they were, because of the constant presence of a caluclator on your phone.
Technology is only going to increase its contribution to education - but even now i think there is an over dependence on it.
The skill you learn in school and college, should be how to learn and this can be applied to different spheres

On a course with business graduates, on brainstorming, I asked them to close their laptops and turn off their phones and describe the problem, list similar situations and examples - i may as well told them the pubs would be closed for 6 months!

Eric Cartman

learning engineering (metalwork) , tech drawing and woodwork absolutely helped in my career , learning German has helped and I've become more fluent since school. Thats where it ends

Irish was taught so poorly it made me hate my national language. Religion was a pointless class, maths was taught the wrong way to suit students for whom rote learning wasn't their forte.

School is obviously important but there are other models need to be explored, theres a hell of a lot of kids for whom, like myself the leaving cert was more an excercise in finding the rare few practical subjects to earn much needed points rather than providing pathways into more practical learning. A hell of a lot of young lads who'd make great engineers were it only for the same maths course designed to raise accountants, scientists and maths teachers.

JasonStatham

I used to think this about calculus in school. But then I did a Physics degree and I could see what it's really used for. But such maths is hardly practical for your average student.

I don't think learning French is impractical, but I think you should be allowed to opt out for something more vocational (God knows what that could be - programming maybe?) if you're not academically inclined.

completedit

Education system is terrible. History, Geography, Economics, Business. Then Maths, English, French, Irish and Spanish.

Honestly a complete and utter waste of my teenage years. I liked economics and history and ended up studying economics to master's level. But still just awful. The Leaving Cert and the whole secondary school system takes away any agency from the student; you end up going to college as a passive rote learning idiot.

The problem with the LC and school's in Ireland is that the teachers view every student based on the aggregate of their performance. There's no awareness that the student might excel or have an interest in certain areas.

Pythagorean

joe40 wrote: »

"Education is what remains when everything you learned has been forgotten" apparently said by Einstein but I can't be sure.
We only know what we do all the time. All knowledge and facts will be forgotten it is the skills, work ethic, and personal interactions that are important.

That quote was said by a well known psychologist, it was a question on University Challenge this evening !! I got a good Honours leaving Cert decades ago now, but if I was to resit the same exam today I would score zero, or close to it. However, something indefinable remains, a mental sharpness, a breadth of knowledge, an appreciation of culture. so I don't think it was wasted. A purely utilitarian education, or training, may put money in your pocket, but just to take an example, say if one studied Physics for Leaving Cert, one would be better placed to think rationally about controversial issues such as High Voltage power lines, Nuclear power, etc. So, what seemed like pointless drudgery as a teenager may prove its worth in later life.

Damien360

completedit wrote: »

Education system is terrible. History, Geography, Economics, Business. Then Maths, English, French, Irish and Spanish.

I’ll go against the trend In thread a bit.

From your above list :

History - hugely important that we learn from past mistakes and don’t end up like the Brits one dimensional view of the empire. Recent events and the waffle Trump claims is history was taken as gospel by his legion. Your history in school stands to you if similar occurs here.

Geography - I cringe when I see people in the US with an inability to find whole states in their own country. As for their ability to find places outside the US, it’s non-existent. I bet you could easily find plenty (not all) of countries all over the world and possibly their capitals from a globe. Don’t knock that education.

Economics/Business - this is a basic grounding in some accountancy, and in general how the business world works. Good to know some of it. Bank loans and understanding variable rates should be drilled into everyone.

Maths - depends on your job. I use it constantly in mine. At the very least being able to calculate quickly what is a bargain and what is not one is crucial. I did Applied Maths also which was tough but a fantastic view into the various uses of maths.

English - I would have Shakespeare shot from a cannon. For those that don’t read books, the novels in the LC were a decent introduction. God forbid text speak becomes the new normal and at least we can thank English class for keeping that away from those of us old enough.

Languages including Irish - here I agree with you. we truly haven’t a clue how to teach these. Conjugate the verb in French and Irish for me. Striving for perfection instead of speaking abilities. I learned more in 6 months from a substitute French teacher in third year than I did for the 2 years previous and the 2 years after. She taught it with no paper and it was all speech. Had enough to try in France on holidays and they interjected because I tried and spoke English.

I haven’t a word of Irish. Can read it and work out some of it but couldn’t speak it. Such a shame after so many years “learning” it. Foreign language should taught by a foreign language speaker. Not sure what to do with Irish but I still think it should be conversation only and if you want perfection then off to third level with you.

Religion - just no. Has actively driven me away from religion. I’m a cynic by nature and miracles just don’t wash with me.

joseywhales

What you learn is not really important, it's more important that you develop an enjoyment of learning something, so that you know that you have some curiosity and the confidence to learn anything if you want.

Also learning how to learn is vital.

Sometimes crap teachers are very empowering.

AllForIt

I was lucky. I went to a so called 'tech' school. I learned to use a saw, a drill, a needle, a cooker, amongst other things. You know, practical stuff in case you don't make millions and you have to do things for yourself in your everyday life.

So, very practical as it turned out.

Rob Humanoid

Thanks for all the valuable insights and opinions! I should point out again that I think a good education is absolutely vital. And I agree, you need a good 'round' foundation for a starting off point. Basic math and reading/writing are critical to a high standard.

Some of the more 'esoteric skills' that have been mentioned here already. I feel I didn't get out of my secondary school at all to be honest. Such as, the love of learning, a good work ethic, trying to be a decent person, interest in other cultures, and music appreciation. If anything, it pretty much put me off many of those. And especially the love of learning - that was stolen from me the moment I stepped into secondary school. At the time I kept thinking, 'why am I learning this stuff? I'll never use it.' And I was right, from my perspective anyway.

Just regarding some of the more esoteric skills. I feel like I acquired them elsewhere. Trying to be a decent human from my parents. A good work ethic from my Dad. Who wouldn’t let me lounge about during the holidays. The love of learning comes from my own insatiable brain. It never stops wanting to learn. Music appreciation came from my own love of music. It had nothing to do with the material I was forced to learn in school. I've been in bands for years and have become very adept with a DAW (or digital audio workstation).

Interesting… Regarding ‘critical thinking’ this for me, never came from school. If anything the opposite was true. ‘This is what you are learning anything else is wrong. Don’t question… Just learn’. I think it was my own skeptical nature that started me questioning everything. That type of thinking was never talked about. I can’t speak for today's education.

The interest in other languages still eludes me. OP mentioned that they got interested in cultures because they learned a foreign language. That’s cool! But for me, we only ever learned the syllabus and had no time for learning about the country per se. But YMMV!

Unless I was going to emigrate to that particular country, I'd argue that all that time learning something that you'd never use was a waste of time. I mean, you could have done something much more useful. At one point, recently, I was thinking about emigrating to Sweden. The first thing I would have done would be to learn the language. And all my French would have been thoroughly wasted anyway.

Again, this is all quite personal. So I can't say it applies to anyone else. But I also detested learning English literature. Poetry and the ye' oldy Silas Marner stuff. I developed a love of literature, not from them. But from my Mum who introduced me to horror from a young age. And I've never stopped reading and writing horror books even to this day.

One poster mentioned about hating Irish. I'm the same... Can't speak two words of it. And like OP, this was not down to the subject of our national language. But the truly god awful teachers I had. I had many over the years, and only one was a good geezer in 5th year. But by that stage it was far too late and the damage had been done. Only in my later years I've become interested in the language again. Who knows I might even get some tuition. Just for interests sake.

I still think education should be far more focused on the pupil, their aptitudes and their interests - The English A levels seem more logical (but the standard is lower so I believe). A lot is said about the Scandinavian educations systems too. But I can’t really comment as I don’t know much about them.

Much of the time the teachers were poor at best. And I did go to one of the better fee paying schools in South Co. Dublin. I repeated my Leaving Cert in New Park Comprehensive, and boy do I wish I'd gone there instead. For that last year at least, I was treated like an adult. That was a great experience. Maybe my whole experience would have been better. In fact, it was one of those teachers in NP who said. Go to art college. And I did...

I really wish I'd gone to a more tech school also. I’d love to have some good DIY and practical skills. Stuff, as 'ALLForIT' said, skills you could use in your everyday life.

Cheers and sorry for the waffly reply.

Rob.

riffmongous

I wouldn't say time spent learning a particular language is wasted if you instead need to learn a different one.. depending on how you learned the first one. If you picked up a grasp of how languages actually work grammatically then you'll find it much easier to learn the next one. It's why Latin is still a useful language to learn at second level, even though you'll never use it again. But if all you got was a few phrases then yeah, you'll struggle.

Danzy

The whole thing is very bad all together.

Fierce black.

Padre_Pio

I agree with most of the posters here, it's good to get a foundational knowledge, but most of the courses are taught purely for the sake of it. There's hardly any link to what you're learning and actual, real world examples.

But that said, how can there be? As Tommy Tiernan said, a teacher is someone who loves school so much they never leave it. How can that person find real world parallels for their subjects?

It reminds me of our guidance counselor, a lovely man, but a teacher who's only relevant experience was looking for a teaching job once over 30 years ago. How is he going to guide anyone in career choices?

My only suggestion would be the senior cycle is 3 years instead of 2. Why is JC a 3 year stint and LC 2 years?

Secondly, students should be allowed to specialise, and double up on courses they're interested in.
You like maths? Or history or English, or chemistry?
Well you can double up on that course and drop something you've no interest in.

Your exam is obviously tougher, but you're not struggling learning something you have little interest in.

smellyoldboot

I actually found most of the subjects offered in my secondary school for leaving cert were very geared toward practical careers: Technology (Basic Mech/Electrical Engineering), Construction Studies (Civil Engineering), The 3 "hard" sciences, Business Studies, Accounting and the mandatory stuff. You could do History, Geography and French/German if you wished but no Art or Music, was kinda geared toward the traditional "male" career options. Early 2000s.

True to form most of the lads with careers out if it now are in trades or engineering of some sort.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

What's essential for life that is currently on the syallabus?
Well, Maths and English unti lthe age of about 14 (if you don't have enough written/reading/maths for average life by then, SOMETHING has gone wrong)
And that's about it.

I'd argue science, but it's not a core subject (although it should be).

Other things like metal/woodwork are useful but not essential. Some others; yes - if you have an interest in doing them professionally.

Everything else is padding.

Padre_Pio

smellyoldboot wrote: »

I actually found most of the subjects offered in my secondary school for leaving cert were very geared toward practical careers: Technology (Basic Mech/Electrical Engineering), Construction Studies (Civil Engineering), The 3 "hard" sciences, Business Studies, Accounting and the mandatory stuff. You could do History, Geography and French/German if you wished but no Art or Music, was kinda geared toward the traditional "male" career options. Early 2000s.

True to form most of the lads with careers out if it now are in trades or engineering of some sort.

All boys school?

smellyoldboot

Padre_Pio wrote: »

All boys school?

How'd ya guess? lol

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

smellyoldboot wrote: »

How'd ya guess? lol

The erection, probably.

Goodshape

You're learning how to learn, if nothing else. What would you prefer to have been doing at that time?

I feel like I got a decent and rounded education with enough free time and support to pursue my own interests during my school years.

NeonCookies

Rob Humanoid wrote:

Just regarding some of the more esoteric skills. I feel like I acquired them elsewhere. Trying to be a decent human from my parents. A good work ethic from my Dad. Who wouldn’t let me lounge about during the holidays. The love of learning comes from my own insatiable brain. It never stops wanting to learn. Music appreciation came from my own love of music. It had nothing to do with the material I was forced to learn in school. I've been in bands for years and have become very adept with a DAW (or digital audio workstation).

100% agree with this. While it is a great opportunity if it works for you, school isn't the only place we can learn and definitely shouldn't be considered to be. My fiance is a super intelligent guy but really struggled to focus and appreciate the value of school when he was young, and tbh that environment just wasn't for him. I work with young people now in similar situations who struggle to "buy in" to school, but have immense intelligence and cop on that will stand to them as long as they get some guidance and the basic skills as you said. Our parents are so crucial also.

Rob Humanoid wrote:

Interesting… Regarding ‘critical thinking’ this for me, never came from school. If anything the opposite was true. ‘This is what you are learning anything else is wrong. Don’t question… Just learn’. I think it was my own skeptical nature that started me questioning everything. That type of thinking was never talked about. I can’t speak for today's education.

I think I got lucky here as my history teacher really focused on this. She drew out and appreciated our opinions. She was a teacher who everyone feared at Junior Cert because she was so strict, but once you got to Senior cycle and particularly 6th year she really treated you like an adult with ideas that were worthy of respect.

I do think we should have more options away from the traditional "academics". I went to an all girls school and there were little to no practical subjects offered.. Technical Drawing ran for two years before the teacher left and it never started up again. I did it for Junior Cert and for an A...could have missed a calling!

While the Leaving Cert could maybe do with being reduced to 5 subjects if that's what the student wants, I feel the UK system is a bit restrictive with 3 subjects. You choose so few A Level subjects that if you changed your mind on what you want to study in university you could be goosed. The subjects I did for my Leaving Cert meant that I would have met basic entry requirements for pretty much any 3rd level course (with the right grades and points of course). In my opinion a breadth of knowledge, rather than depth, is probably more important at that young age but of course everyone is different and some people know exactly what their interests are and what they want to do when they grow up from a very early stage!

ronivek

The education system has to cater for every single child in the nation; and lend itself to being taught to large groups by a single teacher. You might have hated History or Geography; but a few of the people in your class likely enjoyed it. Likewise you might have loved Irish and yet most in your class hated it. In any case even if you dislike a subject you're surely going to pick up some information about the world around you; and I don't think knowing more is ever a bad thing.

The way I see education is that it's there to give kids options; and to let them dabble in things they might enjoy whilst also letting them figure out how to deal with things they don't enjoy but which nevertheless may be valuable. In that respect I think the Irish system isn't so bad.

One thing I would like to see is a separate subject which deals with critical thinking, critical writing, argument, and cognition in a more formal way; rather than the existing approach of trying to teach it implicitly in the context of individual subjects. For example teaching about bias, about consuming Social Media and news media with a critical eye, etc.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

Irish - Have an interest in it and would like to use it more in daily life, but never really get the chance.

English - I was actually good at, and it helped me in writing skills and articulation which are very important in my current and previous jobs.

Maths - Never used anything other than basic Maths after my Leaving Cert.

French - Was in France once for about 10 days during Euro 2016, pretty much solely used it to order pints and one night to explain to some locals the difference between the Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland and Great Britain and how we hadn't voted for Brexit. Amazing how our next nearest neighbours have such a poor concept of our basic history.

Geography/History - Useful to have a general knowledge in both as per my paragraph on the French.

Biology - Hated it. Was the least of the 3 evils of Science subjects. Never used it and have forgotten most of it.

Religion - lol

Stepping Stone

I think that I took lots away from my secondary education. I went to a mixed school though, so that might be the difference.

English: absolutely essential! It’s such a vitally important life skill to be able to read and understand what you’re reading. Often an issue on Boards with posters. Lots of important info picked up in my six years in secondary school. I utterly despised poetry and Shakespeare but it all adds to the general fabric.

Irish and French: Brutally taught. Couldn’t say a sentence in either at this point but we did learn about French culture and go there to experience it.

Maths: I have a technical role, so I use maths loads. It’s important to know the basics well but also to know the more advanced stuff to a certain degree.

Sciences: So important. Basic physics, chemistry and biology are essential. You can’t understand the world properly without them.

Geography: How can you know how things like mountains and oceans are formed without physical geography. How do you understand regional economics without geography?

History: All important. You can’t understand anything unless you know the history.

Home arc: Learned how to work in a team, cooked, learned to sew. Learned about how appliances worked and in-depth nutritional stuff. Should be compulsory really.

Business, etc.: Not my strong point but plenty of very practical knowledge here. Basic life skills in some cases. Always found it horribly dry but I liked the excitement of science. Still think it’s all worth it.

Art: Aptitude or not, there’s so much to learn. It all feeds into general cultural knowledge.

Music: Niche one in my school. Was only taken by the very musical but if you’re talented, why not make the most of it? I’m tone deaf, but I never minded the opportunity to learn and explore.

Woodwork, metalwork, etc.: Brilliant. Learning how to think things through and make them. Planning, calculating and understanding your materials are great skills.

We spent TY learning loads of practical life skills. First Aid, typing (I’m old), basic photography, mini company, community work, big art project, etc. Lots of teamwork and lots of great skills.

I still have a love of learning now, at nearly 40. School didn’t dampen it at all. It just showed me that there was always something to learn. I was terrible at some things and really good at others, I didn’t find it easy but I enjoyed it. Ironically, my OH went to an all boys school and has nothing positive to say about his experience. He was and is very academic too.

Obviously depends on the school but my mixed country school was pretty great in hindsight.

alroley

completedit wrote: »

Education system is terrible. History, Geography, Economics, Business. Then Maths, English, French, Irish and Spanish.

I'll never understand why people say business studies is "terrible" or useless.

Learning about budgeting, interest rates, how to understand a payslip are all very important for anyone after school.

Tell me how

Are people complaining about subjects which they did for the Leaving Cert cycle?
Wasn't that your choice?

I had the opportunity to do arts/music/home economics along with technical graphics/engineering/woodwork for 6 week blocks up to Christmas in 2nd year before then choosing which ones I wanted to focus on which I think was a good approach.

I think there could be a lot of elements covered which are more relevant for real world scenarios but not sure within what class or whether they should be just within junior cycle.
Driving theory, basic house/car maintenance/debug, personal financial planning, internet safety, etc
Think it is difficult to have a syllabus in which everyone gets exposure to a topic without some feeling that it is irrelevant for them or to fund more teachers to facilitate smaller class sizes to allow them to split up and focus on their own areas.

I have a small awareness of the US and UK education systems and still think our Leaving Cert program stands up when compared to those.

Expect that in future we will see classes or topics introduced in relation to mental health and consent and expect there will be no shortage of up roar at those practical elements being thought in a school environment.

completedit

The Leaving Cert points system ruins the learning process. I don't think the school's know what they're trying to impart upon the students tbh. The whole idea of grind schools to me reflects how bad the educational aspect of our school system is. The intistute has its reputation because it basically strips down the courses and takes away the meat. It's like the equivalent of those apps that give you 15 minute synopsisis of books

Smacruairi

It would be sad if education was assigned a utilitarian role for the future. As someone said, it's there to cater for the broadest range of minds at all levels and interests,and to that degree, I think it does a great job. Growth mindset, imagination, fun, not lads for the machines. To that end I think the college cao system really did a number on schools, its now "what did you get in your test" rather than "what did you learn today".

However it's the unwritten curriculum, negotiation, interpersonal skills, patience, dealing with emotions, resilience, they are things which are constantly taught but not assigned a designation. To omit the soft skills learned through secondary is to do a great disservice.

I do think we have a massive issue in terms of attitudes to schooling in this country.the amount of times you hear "rote learning, peig, Catholic Church, waste of time, doss year" etc. I think there is a real negative mindset bred into a lot of people who don't value the strong skillset they develop. We have extremely high literacy and numeracy scores, particularly for our gdp spend, and our graduates are in extremely high demand.

I don't know if people just have a hard time looking back on their school days with mature reflection or they genuinely feel aggrieved, but anyone who says secondary is poor, then says history or business studies is a waste of time really needs to peel back that layer.

jimmycrackcorm

Sierra Thoughtless Mulberry wrote: »

Didn't it set you up for getting out of bed going somewhere and obeying orders 5 days a week.

Actually that's not correct.
Michael o Leary send to have done well out of our education system as have the collinson neither who founded stripe.

Can't say that the Irish education system just makes drones

Tell me how

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Actually that's not correct.
Michael o Leary send to have done well out of our education system as have the collinson neither who founded stripe.

Can't say that the Irish education system just makes drones

Jaysus man but this isn't showing the Irish education system in any great light.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Actually that's not correct.
Michael o Leary send to have done well out of our education system as have the collinson neither who founded stripe.

Can't say that the Irish education system just makes drones

I rememeber Jonahtan Philbin Bowman saying he learnt more in is first three days on the job than he did in his entire secondary school life.

It's not that it makes "drones" it's the fact that it's the one-size-fits-all mentality; and the idea that if you don't do well on the day, you're a failure.

Padre_Pio

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I rememeber Jonahtan Philbin Bowman saying he learnt more in is first three days on the job than he did in his entire secondary school life.

It's not that it makes "drones" it's the fact that it's the one-size-fits-all mentality; and the idea that if you don't do well on the day, you're a failure.

Fluent in French and Irish is he?

Should write a book about his method.

Tell me how

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I rememeber Jonahtan Philbin Bowman saying he learnt more in is first three days on the job than he did in his entire secondary school life.

It's not that it makes "drones" it's the fact that it's the one-size-fits-all mentality; and the idea that if you don't do well on the day, you're a failure.

Even many people say the same when they come out of college and in to the workplace.
Have read books/articles from Dr's who have said the same about medical school.

I've felt that education gives you the tools, (aptitude, focus, methodology and the skeleton of information on a topic) to allow you to develop that with real world exposure but rarely will produce someone who can hit the ground running without any learning curve.

niallers1

Kids leave school practically financially illiterate. Financial literacy should be one of the most important subjects.

Especially compound interest. (the greatest force known to man :-)
If somebody put away a 270 euro a month over their working life into a pension they would have over a million euros by aged 65.. Instead we have most of the country retiring dependent on the state pension. Financial illiterates I tells ya.

https://www.thecalculatorsite.com/compound?p=7&pp=yearly&pn=45&pt=years&rd=270&rt=deposit&ci=monthly&c=2

Padre_Pio

niallers1 wrote: »

Kids leave school practically financially illiterate. Financial literacy should be one of the most important subjects.

Especially compound interest. (the greatest force known to man :-)
If somebody put away a 270 euro a month over their working life into a pension they would have over a million euros by aged 65.. Instead we have most of the country retiring dependent on the state pension. Financial illiterates I tells ya.

https://www.thecalculatorsite.com/compound?p=7&pp=yearly&pn=45&pt=years&rd=270&rt=deposit&ci=monthly&c=2

If you learned about PAYE you'd know that 270 only costs you 160 if you're on the higher rate

RandomViewer

niallers1 wrote: »

Kids leave school practically financially illiterate. Financial literacy should be one of the most important subjects.

Especially compound interest. (the greatest force known to man :-)
If somebody put away a 270 euro a month over their working life into a pension they would have over a million euros by aged 65.. Instead we have most of the country retiring dependent on the state pension. Financial illiterates I tells ya.

https://www.thecalculatorsite.com/compound?p=7&pp=yearly&pn=45&pt=years&rd=270&rt=deposit&ci=monthly&c=2

Did compound interest in fourth class from memory, don't know if they still do it

RandomViewer

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Fluent in French and Irish is he?

Should write a book about his method.

Think he's dead

RandomViewer

Tell me how wrote: »

Jaysus man but this isn't showing the Irish education system in any great light.

Thought the same, maybe there's a capital letter shortage?

niallers1

RandomViewer wrote: »

Did compound interest in fourth class from memory, don't know if they still do it

They probably do but they need to link it to real world applications and make sure everyone understands it before they leave school.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Fluent in French and Irish is he?

Should write a book about his method.

We're talking practical - I'm not saying he wasn't intelligent.

Tell me how wrote: »

Even many people say the same when they come out of college and in to the workplace.
Have read books/articles from Dr's who have said the same about medical school.

I've felt that education gives you the tools, (aptitude, focus, methodology and the skeleton of information on a topic) to allow you to develop that with real world exposure but rarely will produce someone who can hit the ground running without any learning curve.

It should - but it doesn't.

They are useful tools IF you go on and train/study in the profession reguired (e.g. - studying biology and becoming a doctor).

But there is no practical useage for learning, say, Wuthering Heights or Shakespeare. Now, it would be a useful developmental tool if people studied a wide range of seven or eight novels or plays.

Same with Irish or French: why not have a two year course where you spend a few months learning the basics in three or four different languages? THEN it would be a useful tool.
Irish on its own - nothing practical or useful - but if it was actually taught as a lanaguge with the idea of lingusitic development rather than nationalism and patriotism, then it coudl be a useful tool.

Smacruairi

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

But there is no practical useage for learning, say, Wuthering Heights or Shakespeare.

No practical use for learning literature, the way we communicate our understanding of the world, the way we relate to one another, the way we share our experiences of existence.

As Wilde said, there will always be people who know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Smacruairi wrote: »

No practical use for learning literature, the way we communicate our understanding of the world, the way we relate to one another, the way we share our experiences of existence.

As Wilde said, there will always be people who know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

I'd argue there is a practical use in the form of self-expression and understanding of the estheic world around you.

Smacruairi

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I'd argue there is a practical use in the form of self-expression and understanding of the estheic world around you.

Yeah... So why then is studying Shakespeare impractical? Am architect doesnt just learn to draw lines and angles and maths, he observes excellent examples for inspiration and to demonstrate good practices.