Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

Kaybaykwah

Yes but, if you look at past history like downcow does, you'll conclude the ROI will invade the North and use it as a stepping stone to do the same with Great Britain. The Irish Nation have made a long succession of attempts at conquering the British, or at least undermining their being ruled by them, which is a sin in itself. Lol.

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Take over?

Are you saying a UI isn't a legitimate aspiration?

Seems like you're back to being anti-GFA again.

Do we have to explain what consent is again for you DC?

The questions were nothing to do with legitimacy. I feel your aspiration is completely legitimate, nor has the questions anything to do with consent.
They are questions about feelings.
Let me repeat them

Why does it matter so much to many of you that I refer to myself as Irish?

If you live in ROI why is it important to you that you take over NI?

And one more question. If your government was willing, who of you would support the occupation of NI against the will of the majority?

Fairly simple straightforward questions that may enlighten me rather than trading history disagreements

jm08

downcow wrote: »

The questions were nothing to do with legitimacy. I feel your aspiration is completely legitimate, nor has the questions anything to do with consent.
They are questions about feelings.
Let me repeat them

I'll respond to you since it seems so important to you.

Why does it matter so much to many of you that I refer to myself as Irish?

I'm happy for you to think of yourself as British, Irish or both (per GFA).

If you live in ROI why is it important to you that you take over NI?

No interest in taking over NI. If there is a vote to rejoin the rest of the island I'm happy to go along with that. If there is a vote to remain part of the UK, I'm happy with that.

And one more question. If your government was willing, who of you would support the occupation of NI against the will of the majority?

Are you nuts or something? We're democrats and in an international agreement GFA, we have agreed to abide by the democratic vote of the people.

Jump_In_Jack

downcow wrote: »

The questions were nothing to do with legitimacy. I feel your aspiration is completely legitimate, nor has the questions anything to do with consent.
They are questions about feelings.
Let me repeat them

Why does it matter so much to many of you that I refer to myself as Irish?

If you live in ROI why is it important to you that you take over NI?

And one more question. If your government was willing, who of you would support the occupation of NI against the will of the majority?

Fairly simple straightforward questions that may enlighten me rather than trading history disagreements

1. It’s factually incorrect, and only serves to cause discord in NI. The rest of the UK would also call you Irish. It’s a clear way to insult everyone that isn’t a Unionist bigot.

2. Ireland has no intention of taking over NI by force, there is an agreed peace treaty that requires all parties to defer to the majority of the electorate. If that majority should favour a united Ireland then the RoI will rejoice to see the end of partition of the island.

3. As above, the Irish abhor colonialisation, that’s more of a British trait.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

The questions were nothing to do with legitimacy. I feel your aspiration is completely legitimate, nor has the questions anything to do with consent.
They are questions about feelings.
Let me repeat them

Why does it matter so much to many of you that I refer to myself as Irish?

If you live in ROI why is it important to you that you take over NI?

And one more question. If your government was willing, who of you would support the occupation of NI against the will of the majority?

Fairly simple straightforward questions that may enlighten me rather than trading history disagreements

Easy

1) It doesn't. You're welcome to refer to yourself however you want. It is no concern of mine.

2) Taking over NI isn't being discussed by anyone here. Democratically uniting with NI, with the consent of the majority of both parts of this island are. You're asking a loaded question here, intentionally using the language of conquest rather than consent. I'd imagine that's your British heritage talking.

3) Absolutely not.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

No one has answered the couple of questions I have asked a few times on this thread.

Why does it matter so much to many of you that I refer to myself as Irish?

I couldn't care less if you wish to refer to yourself as a Martian.
I will however point out inaccuracies when they happen. jh79 right here assumed that NI was a part of Britain and therefore correct to call people their British by default.
That is always going to be technically wrong. People on this island are British by choice, not by default.

If you live in ROI why is it important to you that you take over NI?

Silly interpretation and deliberatley provocative.
The creation of any UI is mapped out as a democratic process open to all who wish to be democrats.

And one more question. If your government was willing, who of you would support the occupation of NI against the will of the majority?

Nobody I know. Because what would be the point?

jh79

jh79 wrote: »

Well, technically it is the UK & NI as per the GFA but shorthand Britain is fine by me.

Ireland consists of 26 counties anything outside of that needs a new moniker.

Francie, i didn't .

Fionn1952

jh79 wrote: »

Francie, i didn't .

Shorthand Britain wouldn't be fine though, it would be incorrect. Britain is a specific landmass which doesn't include NI, so no matter what way you paint it, referring to NI as part of Britain is wrong.

This doesn't change Downcow and his community's British citizenship or identity, but it is 100% incorrect to say he lives in Britain. He is a British person who lives in Northern Ireland, which is currently part of the United Kingdom, situated on the island of Ireland. You'd be correct to say that only 26 counties make up the Irish administration on the island, but no matter your political leanings, the name for the entire island is Ireland.

jh79

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Shorthand Britain wouldn't be fine though, it would be incorrect. Britain is a specific landmass which doesn't include NI, so no matter what way you paint it, referring to NI as part of Britain is wrong.

This doesn't change Downcow and his community's British citizenship or identity, but it is 100% incorrect to say he lives in Britain. He is a British person who lives in Northern Ireland, which is currently part of the United Kingdom, situated on the island of Ireland. You'd be correct to say that only 26 counties make up the Irish administration on the island, but no matter your political leanings, the name for the entire island is Ireland.

I dunno if i ever said he lives in Britian but he is British.

Are people from the Canary Islands/ Majorca etc Spanish? Of course they are. Countries do not have to be a single land mass.

Only insecure Republicans are bothered about this. A distraction from the reality that partition still exists and they are participants in it .

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Easy

1) It doesn't. You're welcome to refer to yourself however you want. It is no concern of mine.

2) Taking over NI isn't being discussed by anyone here. Democratically uniting with NI, with the consent of the majority of both parts of this island are. You're asking a loaded question here, intentionally using the language of conquest rather than consent. I'd imagine that's your British heritage talking.

3) Absolutely not.

Thanks for Q1 & Q3 answers - great to hear and I appreciate you position.

Q2 I say 'taking over' because thats how it looks from here. Most posters on here seem to want to keep your flag, your anthem, your legal system, your voting system, your passports, your post boxes, your kph speed limits, your rail service, your Garda Shecona, your road markings, your health system, your language, your laws, etc, etc. Maybe you don't fall into this category and would be happy we use 50% British ones eg change to mph, have a Westminster goverment system, the union flag, etc, etc.
Looks very like a taking over to me!

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Thanks for Q1 & Q3 answers - great to hear and I appreciate you position.

Q2 I say 'taking over' because thats how it looks from here. Most posters on here seem to want to keep your flag, your anthem, your legal system, your voting system, your passports, your post boxes, your kph speed limits, your rail service, your Garda Shecona, your road markings, your health system, your language, your laws, etc, etc. Maybe you don't fall into this category and would be happy we use 50% British ones eg change to mph, have a Westminster goverment system, the union flag, etc, etc.
Looks very like a taking over to me!

Regarding Q2 Downcow, you're engaging in hyperbole of the highest order. We've discussed this in detail in other threads, but it is a minority who expect unification to just be NI subsumed into the current Irish state.

The vast majority have stated that they would be open to discussion and compromise on certain things. Some of your suggestions are self-evidently ridiculous though. Obviously taking the Union flag as our nation's flag would be absolutely idiotic - that is the flag of another nation, a nation that would still exist and be using that flag post unification. Many people have stated they would have no issue with a new national flag post unification though. Likewise with the national anthem.

Some of your suggestions seem very much like petty, insignificant things, and I'd question the resource value of changing them, like for example the colour of post boxes. These sort of suggestions seem more like an attempt to push away from anything Irish rather than genuine concerns that you would like to see compromise on. Like seriously, who gives a damn about road markings, unless you're referring to certain people's tendency to mark territory by painting kerbstones?

Other suggestions of yours seem ill thought out and purely reactionary. Can you highlight the differences you see in the Westminster system of government and why you see this as beneficial? Likewise with the Irish legal system.....which is so similar to the British legal system that British cases can be used as precedent for cases here? Where's the huge swathing difference that you can't accept?

There are many things you could put forward that would be understandable (What protections will be in place for your culture? How will we ensure those from a Unionist background have a political voice? How do we ensure we avoid the mistakes made in the formation of NI and be absolutely sure we don't end up with similar but with the shoe on the other foot), but all you seem to care about is flags, symbolism and territorial pissing about.

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Some of your suggestions seem very much like petty, insignificant things, and I'd question the resource value of changing them, like for example the colour of post boxes.
.

I could leave the house here and within a few minutes return with a picture of my nearest post box which is still the one that was there pre-independence, replete with the crown on it. 100's of them around the country still. Here is just one of them.


Mind you I would have to wade through the 100 year vigil of indignant republicans protesting it being there in first place.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Thanks for Q1 & Q3 answers - great to hear and I appreciate you position.

Q2 I say 'taking over' because thats how it looks from here. Most posters on here seem to want to keep your flag, your anthem, your legal system, your voting system, your passports, your post boxes, your kph speed limits, your rail service, your Garda Shecona, your road markings, your health system, your language, your laws, etc, etc. Maybe you don't fall into this category and would be happy we use 50% British ones eg change to mph, have a Westminster goverment system, the union flag, etc, etc.
Looks very like a taking over to me!

I might argue for some of them to be retained, but I would be willing to listen to unionists on why they should not be. You would be able to retain your British Passport as anyone born in the ROI before 1949 (when Ireland became a Republic) were eligible to claim British citizenship (or duel as the case maybe).


I suggest you adopt the Irish voting system because that way minorities like unionists will have a voice.



I can't remember how the kilo/lb thing works now in NI. Do you buy a lb of butter or 500g (half a kilo)?

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Regarding Q2 Downcow, you're engaging in hyperbole of the highest order. We've discussed this in detail in other threads, but it is a minority who expect unification to just be NI subsumed into the current Irish state.

The vast majority have stated that they would be open to discussion and compromise on certain things. Some of your suggestions are self-evidently ridiculous though. Obviously taking the Union flag as our nation's flag would be absolutely idiotic - that is the flag of another nation, a nation that would still exist and be using that flag post unification. Many people have stated they would have no issue with a new national flag post unification though. Likewise with the national anthem.

Some of your suggestions seem very much like petty, insignificant things, and I'd question the resource value of changing them, like for example the colour of post boxes. These sort of suggestions seem more like an attempt to push away from anything Irish rather than genuine concerns that you would like to see compromise on. Like seriously, who gives a damn about road markings, unless you're referring to certain people's tendency to mark territory by painting kerbstones?

Other suggestions of yours seem ill thought out and purely reactionary. Can you highlight the differences you see in the Westminster system of government and why you see this as beneficial? Likewise with the Irish legal system.....which is so similar to the British legal system that British cases can be used as precedent for cases here? Where's the huge swathing difference that you can't accept?

There are many things you could put forward that would be understandable (What protections will be in place for your culture? How will we ensure those from a Unionist background have a political voice? How do we ensure we avoid the mistakes made in the formation of NI and be absolutely sure we don't end up with similar but with the shoe on the other foot), but all you seem to care about is flags, symbolism and territorial pissing about.

This evidences what i mean. I was tempted to say the mask has slipped, but that would be unfair because i do believe you genuinely do not see your prejudice on these issues. You do clearly see ROI subsuming NI.
Here are a couple of examples - You say "Obviously taking the Union flag as our nation's flag would be absolutely idiotic - that is the flag of another nation"
So you see my country's flag in a very different way than you see you country's flag. Would you say "Obviously taking the Irish tricolour flag as our nation's flag would be absolutely idiotic - that is the flag of another nation". No you wouldn't because you see us as joining your country rather than two countries joining together.
You talk about the costs associated with changing any of the stuff i mention in ROI but no mention of costs of changing the stuff in NI. You just say its a ridiculous proposition. Yet my proposition was to change eg the speed limits to mph in ROI and change the phone boxes to green in NI, change some laws to british version and some laws to the ROI version, etc.
It's funny that a request for equality is taken as ridiculous.
Just honestly consider that and try and see it through the eyes of a Norther Ireland UK subject

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

I might argue for some of them to be retained, but I would be willing to listen to unionists on why they should not be. You would be able to retain your British Passport as anyone born in the ROI before 1949 (when Ireland became a Republic) were eligible to claim British citizenship (or duel as the case maybe).


I suggest you adopt the Irish voting system because that way minorities like unionists will have a voice.



I can't remember how the kilo/lb thing works now in NI. Do you buy a lb of butter or 500g (half a kilo)?

Firstly, praise where praise is due - thats a more moderate post than i am used to from you. You are trying. But you need to examine you prejudice and patronising arrogance (not you personally particularly). You would allow me to keep my British passport!!! Firstly that would have zero to do with the Irish government and exclusively a matter for the British government (so big deal, thank you, my new master). My point was that you are not even considering a new name for this newly united island and therefore a new passport - You seem to actually be considering keeping the name and passport of your country - unbelievable!

FrancieBrady

Extraordinary expose of the thinking of a belligerent Unionist in the last few posts.

Talk about a victimhood mentality? downcow, you have just glossed over completely reasonable posts and invented a whole heap of things to get upset about. Bizarre.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Extraordinary expose of the thinking of a belligerent Unionist in the last few posts.

Talk about a victimhood mentality? downcow, you have just glossed over completely reasonable posts and invented a whole heap of things to get upset about. Bizarre.

Is it bizarre that i challenge all the talk on here of NI & ROI joining together in equality and respect, mixed with all the belligerent blinkered prejudiced views being expressed in the same posts.

Francie why don't you be straight. Do you see NI & ROI joining in equality and respect or do you see ROI taking over NI? and if its the former (and i doubt it) what would be wrong with wanting equal amount of change in both - lets share the pain (and opportunity) of change

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Is it bizarre that i challenge all the talk on here of NI & ROI joining together in equality and respect, mixed with all the belligerent blinkered prejudiced views being expressed in the same posts.

Francie why don't you be straight. Do you see NI & ROI joining in equality and respect or do you see ROI taking over NI? and if its the former (and i doubt it) what would be wrong with wanting equal amount of change in both - lets share the pain (and opportunity) of change

Both the posters have stated that everything is up for negotiation...as have I.

I will be arguing against certain things without a doubt but democracy will win. I am happy to go with whatever is decided democratically.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

This evidences what i mean. I was tempted to say the mask has slipped, but that would be unfair because i do believe you genuinely do not see your prejudice on these issues. You do clearly see ROI subsuming NI.
Here are a couple of examples - You say "Obviously taking the Union flag as our nation's flag would be absolutely idiotic - that is the flag of another nation"
So you see my country's flag in a very different way than you see you country's flag. Would you say "Obviously taking the Irish tricolour flag as our nation's flag would be absolutely idiotic - that is the flag of another nation". No you wouldn't because you see us as joining your country rather than two countries joining together.
You talk about the costs associated with changing any of the stuff i mention in ROI but no mention of costs of changing the stuff in NI. You just say its a ridiculous proposition. Yet my proposition was to change eg the speed limits to mph in ROI and change the phone boxes to green in NI, change some laws to british version and some laws to the ROI version, etc.
It's funny that a request for equality is taken as ridiculous.
Just honestly consider that and try and see it through the eyes of a Norther Ireland UK subject

Nope, you've missed the point spectacularly Downcow. It is nothing to do with how I view your flag at all.

In the event of unification, the United Kingdom will continue to exist. They will be using their flag, so we can't have it. This doesn't change the fact that NI is CURRENTLY part of the United Kingdom, but in the event of unification, obviously it will no longer be so. Regardless of the current situation, in the event of unification, the United Kingdom will be a different country to Ireland. How this can be interpreted as anything but self evident, I have no idea.

You then go on to rant about the Irish tricolour and suggest that I hold a particular opinion on it, despite my saying that I would have no issue with a new flag. I would highlight the obvious difference between adapting the Union flag and the tricolour for our new state- only one of those flags would be the flag of a different currently existing nation. As the current Irish state would no longer exist, that flag would be, 'vacant' so to speak. Crucially though, I'll repeat, I would have no issue whatsoever with a new flag.

Regarding costs, I genuinely didn't think I needed to state the obvious - the Irish state is bigger, so it would be more expensive to change things like post boxes etc in the larger space. It would be much more cost effective to make the change where the least change is required. I also wouldn't give a toss if the post boxes in the North stayed red. Speed limits on roads are obviously different as there is a safety factor. More people on the island drive with and are used to KPH signs, so less change would be required and cost would be lower to standardise this across the island - I say this as someone who learned how to drive in MPH and still thinks of distances in miles. Likewise trains.....there are so few trains in NI that it would obviously be more cost effective that should standardisation between the two be required that the changes should be made to the smaller fleet.....in saying that, the Enterprise service doesnt seem to have any trouble crossing the border and I would have zero issue with minor things like standardizing livery being gradually done to a shared choice gradually as old trains are taken out of service and new trains into service.

The point you're missing is that I genuinely don't care in the slightest about what colour a post box or a train is!

Also, I haven't actually argued against specific laws or systems of government, I've asked you a question - apart from distancing yourself from anything Irish, what specific British laws do you want, what advantage do they bring to justify their adaption and what significant benefits would changing the system of government to a Westminster style one actually bring?

Give specifics on what you object to in Irish law that you think the British really have nailed down. Give specifics on your perceived weaknesses in the Irish system of government and how adapting to British systems would be better?!

I'm open to being convinced on pretty much anything, but like I said, it seems all you want is to continue complaining about anything you perceive as in any way Irish. I've even given examples of things I'd see as significant regarding protecting your culture and rights, but not a word about them from you - you're more interested in what colour a post box is and avoiding the Irish language on a sign post.

As far as my aspirations go, we are talking about the creation of a new Irish state, not subsuming NI into the current Irish state, and sure as hell not turning Ireland back into a part of the UK for no discernible reason whatsoever. If you think the latter is a good idea, it's your job to convince me (or at least a majority of the populace), just like it will be my job to convince that unification is a good idea.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Nope, you've missed the point spectacularly Downcow. It is nothing to do with how I view your flag at all.

In the event of unification, the United Kingdom will continue to exist. They will be using their flag, so we can't have it. This doesn't change the fact that NI is CURRENTLY part of the United Kingdom, but in the event of unification, obviously it will no longer be so. Regardless of the current situation, in the event of unification, the United Kingdom will be a different country to Ireland. How this can be interpreted as anything but self evident, I have no idea.

You then go on to rant about the Irish tricolour and suggest that I hold a particular opinion on it, despite my saying that I would have no issue with a new flag. I would highlight the obvious difference between adapting the Union flag and the tricolour for our new state- only one of those flags would be the flag of a different currently existing nation. As the current Irish state would no longer exist, that flag would be, 'vacant' so to speak. Crucially though, I'll repeat, I would have no issue whatsoever with a new flag.

Regarding costs, I genuinely didn't think I needed to state the obvious - the Irish state is bigger, so it would be more expensive to change things like post boxes etc in the larger space. It would be much more cost effective to make the change where the least change is required. I also wouldn't give a toss if the post boxes in the North stayed red. Speed limits on roads are obviously different as there is a safety factor. More people on the island drive with and are used to KPH signs, so less change would be required and cost would be lower to standardise this across the island - I say this as someone who learned how to drive in MPH and still thinks of distances in miles. Likewise trains.....there are so few trains in NI that it would obviously be more cost effective that should standardisation between the two be required that the changes should be made to the smaller fleet.....in saying that, the Enterprise service doesnt seem to have any trouble crossing the border and I would have zero issue with minor things like standardizing livery being gradually done to a shared choice gradually as old trains are taken out of service and new trains into service.

The point you're missing is that I genuinely don't care in the slightest about what colour a post box or a train is!

Also, I haven't actually argued against specific laws or systems of government, I've asked you a question - apart from distancing yourself from anything Irish, what specific British laws do you want, what advantage do they bring to justify their adaption and what significant benefits would changing the system of government to a Westminster style one actually bring?

Give specifics on what you object to in Irish law that you think the British really have nailed down. Give specifics on your perceived weaknesses in the Irish system of government and how adapting to British systems would be better?!

I'm open to being convinced on pretty much anything, but like I said, it seems all you want is to continue complaining about anything you perceive as in any way Irish. I've even given examples of things I'd see as significant regarding protecting your culture and rights, but not a word about them from you - you're more interested in what colour a post box is and avoiding the Irish language on a sign post.

As far as my aspirations go, we are talking about the creation of a new Irish state, not subsuming NI into the current Irish state, and sure as hell not turning Ireland back into a part of the UK for no discernible reason whatsoever. If you think the latter is a good idea, it's your job to convince me (or at least a majority of the populace), just like it will be my job to convince that unification is a good idea.

Its all double talk. here's what happens when you let your guard down. you say "Give specifics on your perceived weaknesses in the Irish system of government and how adapting to British systems would be better" . It is really very clear that you seethe default position on everything in a unified island as current ROI practice, and you are conciding that if something is evidently better in the British system then you would consider adopting it. Can you not see that this is not equality.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Its all double talk. here's what happens when you let your guard down. you say "Give specifics on your perceived weaknesses in the Irish system of government and how adapting to British systems would be better" . It is really very clear that you seethe default position on everything in a unified island as current ROI practice, and you are conciding that if something is evidently better in the British system then you would consider adopting it. Can you not see that this is not equality.

Now you want people to accept something that is bad, just because?

Everything is up for review. Everything.

ittakestwo

downcow wrote: »

No one has answered the couple of questions I have asked a few times on this thread.

Why does it matter so much to many of you that I refer to myself as Irish?

If you live in ROI why is it important to you that you take over NI?

And one more question. If your government was willing, who of you would support the occupation of NI against the will of the majority?

1) I think it is undermining to a country or place by not referring to its inhabitants as being from there. It is also factually wrong not to refer a person to the place they are from.

2) I don't think it is that important to most in ROI. Only really SF is pushing for a border poll, the main parties in the south are not. But I believe it was wrong to split Ireland between being part of two jurisdictions.Either it all went or all stayed. It also left a lot of people who wanted to go left behind. So for them I would vote for a UI.

3) Dont understand this question. There would only be a UI if it was the majority of north and south that wanted it. I would not want a UI if still the majority did not want it.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Its all double talk. here's what happens when you let your guard down. you say "Give specifics on your perceived weaknesses in the Irish system of government and how adapting to British systems would be better" . It is really very clear that you seethe default position on everything in a unified island as current ROI practice, and you are conciding that if something is evidently better in the British system then you would consider adopting it. Can you not see that this is not equality.

This discussion isn't really much use when I reply by going through your post point by point, addressing everything you say and you repeatedly decline to respond to the vast majority of my post, but instead pick out one sentence to reply to. I'll try once more though.

If your idea of equality is the minority of ~1 million Protestants/former unionists having the exact same say and influence as the 5.5 million other residents of the island, then you'd be correct in saying that I'm not in support of your idea of equality. I'm interested in building an Ireland in which the wishes of as many people as possible are catered for, with protections for minorities. If you have specific things you would like, then I'm willing to listen and be convinced, but I'm certainly not going to advocate for adopting British things just for the sake of it, as I would rather put our resources towards changes that DO make a difference.

It would be an oversimplification to say I would be adapting an Irish-by-default position, but I certainly won't be taking a British-for-the-sake-of-it position without any conceivable benefit, because it doesn't stack up to a cost/benefit analysis.

The big thing is that I'm not actually advocating for anything specific in the context of this conversation, I'm asking you why you are advocating for taking the British judicial system or government as a starting point, what advantages do you see there? Particularly considering the Irish judicial system and Irish government indeed already DID use the British systems as a starting point.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

This discussion isn't really much use when I reply by going through your post point by point, addressing everything you say and you repeatedly decline to respond to the vast majority of my post, but instead pick out one sentence to reply to. I'll try once more though.

If your idea of equality is the minority of ~1 million Protestants/former unionists having the exact same say and influence as the 5.5 million other residents of the island, then you'd be correct in saying that I'm not in support of your idea of equality. I'm interested in building an Ireland in which the wishes of as many people as possible are catered for, with protections for minorities. If you have specific things you would like, then I'm willing to listen and be convinced, but I'm certainly not going to advocate for adopting British things just for the sake of it, as I would rather put our resources towards changes that DO make a difference.

It would be an oversimplification to say I would be adapting an Irish-by-default position, but I certainly won't be taking a British-for-the-sake-of-it position without any conceivable benefit, because it doesn't stack up to a cost/benefit analysis.

The big thing is that I'm not actually advocating for anything specific in the context of this conversation, I'm asking you why you are advocating for taking the British judicial system or government as a starting point, what advantages do you see there? Particularly considering the Irish judicial system and Irish government indeed already DID use the British systems as a starting point.

I am not advocating a british system. I am simply highlighting that while the words sound great about minority rights most people on here are expecting NI to be subsumed into ‘Ireland’. Thankfully the people of ni hold all the power on that one.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

I am not advocating a british system. I am simply highlighting that while the words sound great about minority rights most people on here are expecting NI to be subsumed into ‘Ireland’. Thankfully the people of ni hold all the power on that one.

So that would be a no on expecting a thorough answer to my posts when I've had the manners to do so for you, Downcow?

The people of NI hold all the power when making a decision on whether or not to pursue unification, but how that will look will be decided by all the people of this island should it come to pass.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

So that would be a no on expecting a thorough answer to my posts when I've had the manners to do so for you, Downcow?

The people of NI hold all the power when making a decision on whether or not to pursue unification, but how that will look will be decided by all the people of this island should it come to pass.

Which question am I not answering. It’s not intentional

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

My point was that you are not even considering a new name for this newly united island and therefore a new passport

Ireland is the name of our country and our island. You are off your head if you think it will be called anything else.

Former Unionists will negotiating as a minority of the people of the former NI so you will not be dictating terms to anyone.

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Ireland is the name of our country and our island. You are off your head if you think it will be called anything else.

Former Unionists will negotiating as a minority of the people of the former NI so you will not be dictating terms to anyone.

Ah quit! I wanted to ask what downcow wanted to call this 'new island' he had discovered?

'I Can't Believe It's Not Britain'?

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Which question am I not answering. It’s not intentional

There were quite a few that you skipped over in your attempts to accuse me of bigotry.

As a starting point, how about this one I've asked several times now?

Why are you more questioning and concerned about flags and symbolism than what most people would consider the much more significant rights, protections and voice for your people? Are those things not a higher priority than what colour a post box is? If they are more important, then why have you chosen to focus your entire points of objection around the first group?

ittakestwo

downcow wrote: »

I am not advocating a british system. I am simply highlighting that while the words sound great about minority rights most people on here are expecting NI to be subsumed into ‘Ireland’. Thankfully the people of ni hold all the power on that one.

They do hold the power under the GFA. If they choose to change from being subsumed by the UK into being subsumed into a new UI by democratic vote well that is fair.

Do the minority group that is nationalist in NI get their way on the color of post boxs etc in NI at the moment?