Rules Question - Drop

stretchaq

So casual game today so no matter for competitions etc but a question arose, I got my second to the water, dropped another ball and hit again, playing partner asked me why didn’t I drop at the edge of water which was a lot closer to the green,

Question is there are no stakes red or yellow am I entitled to drop 2 club lengths from water not nearer hole or have to replay from original spot??

hurleronditch

stretchaq wrote: »

So casual game today so no matter for competitions etc but a question arose, I got my second to the water, dropped another ball and hit again, playing partner asked me why didn’t I drop at the edge of water which was a lot closer to the green,

Question is there are no stakes red or yellow am I entitled to drop 2 club lengths from water not nearer hole or have to replay from original spot??

Not entirely sure of the exact scenario, but you usually don’t “have” to replay from the exact same spot.

On all water hazards you can either replay your shot, or you can drop on any point back along a line keeping the point of entry between you and the flag.

If the hazard is red staked and a lateral hazard (usually for streams and the like, usually, but not exclusively, running roughly parallel to the direction of play) you can drop within 2 club lengths of the last point of entry, once you are not nearer the hole.

With no stakes, assuming that it was something like a lake in front of a green, you could drop as close as you can get to the waters edge, once the entry point is between you and the hole. Without any clear staking, I would not risk dropping within 2 club lengths but not along this line, as it may not be a lateral hazard. Some clubs if they don’t stake their water hazards it may be listed in the local rules on the scorecard

lettuce97

In a somewhat similar vein, and really one for those who know Royal Dublin. 18th is a par 4 dogleg right with everything "inside" the dogleg OOB.
The OOB is ringed by a drain which is a lateral water hazard (or whatever they're supposed to be referred to these days!).
What happens if you take on the dogleg, don't reach safety but end in the hazard (ie don't carry and fall back into the hazard)? I assume depends on if there is any bit of non-OOB marked on the OOB side of the hazard?

billy3sheets

lettuce97 wrote: »

In a somewhat similar vein, and really one for those who know Royal Dublin. 18th is a par 4 dogleg right with everything "inside" the dogleg OOB.
The OOB is ringed by a drain which is a lateral water hazard (or whatever they're supposed to be referred to these days!).
What happens if you take on the dogleg, don't reach safety but end in the hazard (ie don't carry and fall back into the hazard)? I assume depends on if there is any bit of non-OOB marked on the OOB side of the hazard?

The 5th in St Margaret's is a par 3 with a stream all down the left with red stakes. If your ball lands across the stream in the farmers field, it is still considered as in the hazard and not OOB. Is the situation not the same in RD?

DuckSlice

lettuce97 wrote: »

In a somewhat similar vein, and really one for those who know Royal Dublin. 18th is a par 4 dogleg right with everything "inside" the dogleg OOB.
The OOB is ringed by a drain which is a lateral water hazard (or whatever they're supposed to be referred to these days!).
What happens if you take on the dogleg, don't reach safety but end in the hazard (ie don't carry and fall back into the hazard)? I assume depends on if there is any bit of non-OOB marked on the OOB side of the hazard?

First of all you have to be certain your ball is in the hazard, would you be able to see your ball in the hazard?

charlieIRL

I noticed some clubs have removed all the stakes from water hazards to avoid players touching them (Covid related) Visitors have no idea what colours they are now unfortunately.

slave1

Penalty areas now are they not, also red/yellow do they actually mean anything anymore?

Seve OB

slave1 wrote: »

Penalty areas now are they not, also red/yellow do they actually mean anything anymore?

Yes and yes

Seve OB

lettuce97 wrote: »

In a somewhat similar vein, and really one for those who know Royal Dublin. 18th is a par 4 dogleg right with everything "inside" the dogleg OOB.
The OOB is ringed by a drain which is a lateral water hazard (or whatever they're supposed to be referred to these days!).
What happens if you take on the dogleg, don't reach safety but end in the hazard (ie don't carry and fall back into the hazard)? I assume depends on if there is any bit of non-OOB marked on the OOB side of the hazard?

Been a while since I played it, great hole, savage tough when the wind is up and a tough green to get on in 2, but forward sticks, a favourable breeze and it might be worth the risk..... . Anyway, if your ball is in the hazard, well then it’s in the hazard... you can take appropriate relief, 2 clubs sideways from nearest point of relief which will leave you back in play on the right side of the drain and a handy enough approach to the green.

I can’t remember if there is a drop zone or an in play area outside the drain on OOB side, but there could well be. I seem to remember playing my ball in from there at least once, but it was most likely a casual round or I was in a team comp & just playing in for the craic.

If you are OOB......... well you have 2 choices, tuck your tail between your legs and toddle back to the tee, or pack your bag while your buddies finish their game.

PARlance

Sorry to hijack but another rules Q. I've had a look but can't find definite answer.

Can your card be marked by someone not playing in the competition? I.e 2 members out playing a casual round and 3rd in group is playing in an open.

DuckSlice

PARlance wrote: »

Sorry to hijack but another rules Q. I've had a look but can't find definite answer.

Can your card be marked by someone not playing in the competition? I.e 2 members out playing a casual round and 3rd in group is playing in an open.

I think its ok as long as the person is known to committee.

Seve OB

PARlance wrote: »

Sorry to hijack but another rules Q. I've had a look but can't find definite answer.

Can your card be marked by someone not playing in the competition? I.e 2 members out playing a casual round and 3rd in group is playing in an open.

I played a comp yesterday in my club, invited 2 guests, neither of whom are members anywhere. I asked in shop could I enter and was given the all clear.............. turned out I shouldn’t have bothered though, lol 27 poxy points

lettuce97

Seve OB wrote: »

Been a while since I played it, great hole, savage tough when the wind is up and a tough green to get on in 2, but forward sticks, a favourable breeze and it might be worth the risk..... . Anyway, if your ball is in the hazard, well then it’s in the hazard... you can take appropriate relief, 2 clubs sideways from nearest point of relief which will leave you back in play on the right side of the drain and a handy enough approach to the green.

I can’t remember if there is a drop zone or an in play area outside the drain on OOB side, but there could well be. I seem to remember playing my ball in from there at least once, but it was most likely a casual round or I was in a team comp & just playing in for the craic.

If you are OOB......... well you have 2 choices, tuck your tail between your legs and toddle back to the tee, or pack your bag while your buddies finish their game.

Issue is with the point of entry to the hazard though. Does the fact that the point you entered the hazard was OOB (assuming everything on the "wrong" side of the hazard is OOB) have an effect?

padmcv

lettuce97 wrote: »

Issue is with the point of entry to the hazard though. Does the fact that the point you entered the hazard was OOB (assuming everything on the "wrong" side of the hazard is OOB) have an effect?

The OOB does not have an impact. The entry point into the hazard is the only thing to consider. I think the attached sketch is correct for the two possible situations.

DuckSlice

padmcv wrote: »

The OOB does not have an impact. The entry point into the hazard is the only thing to consider. I think the attached sketch is correct for the two possible situations.

If I was in a match I would be asking for proof its in the hazard and not OOB.

padmcv

etxp wrote: »

If I was in a match I would be asking for proof its in the hazard and not OOB.

Absolutely. I had assumed the ball was found in the hazard. If you don't find the ball or did not see it go into the hazard, I think you must assume it is OOB.

lettuce97

padmcv wrote: »

Absolutely. I had assumed the ball was found in the hazard. If you don't find the ball or did not see it go into the hazard, I think you must assume it is OOB.

In the Royal Dub scenario, it would be very obvious it was in the hazard - it's a drain rather than a stream, easy to find the ball.

That image is very interesting - what I take from pic 1 is that OOB doesn't count as leaving the hazard, whereas if the area marked OB was in fact part of the course the point of entry would be pretty much the same for both diagrams.

GreeBo

padmcv wrote: »

The OOB does not have an impact. The entry point into the hazard is the only thing to consider. I think the attached sketch is correct for the two possible situations.

First pic is OOB, why do you think OOB doesn't come into it?!

Seve OB

stretchaq wrote: »

Question is there are no stakes red or yellow am I entitled to drop 2 club lengths from water not nearer hole or have to replay from original spot??

hurleronditch wrote: »

With no stakes, assuming that it was something like a lake in front of a green, you could drop as close as you can get to the waters edge, once the entry point is between you and the hole. Without any clear staking, I would not risk dropping within 2 club lengths but not along this line, as it may not be a lateral hazard. Some clubs if they don’t stake their water hazards it may be listed in the local rules on the scorecard

charlieIRL wrote: »

I noticed some clubs have removed all the stakes from water hazards to avoid players touching them (Covid related) Visitors have no idea what colours they are now unfortunately.

From rules quiz, listed under definitions

If the colour of a penalty area has not been marked or indicated as yellow or red by the Committee, it is treated as a yellow penalty area.

Correct Answer
If the colour of a penalty area has not been marked or indicated by the Committee, it is treated as a red penalty area.

Miley Byrne

padmcv wrote: »

The OOB does not have an impact. The entry point into the hazard is the only thing to consider. I think the attached sketch is correct for the two possible situations.

Both scenarios are OB. If the ball crosses over a hazard, then over OB, then returns into the red hazard then that ball is OB.

If it carried hazard, OB and hazard again only for it to roll back into hazard is the only way the player could get relief from that hazard in my humble opinion

Miley Byrne

Seve OB wrote: »

Anyway, if your ball is in the hazard, well then it’s in the hazard... you can take appropriate relief, 2 clubs sideways from nearest point of relief which will leave you back in play on the right side of the drain and a handy enough approach to the green.

Not necessarily, if it crossed OB before landing in hazard then it is OB

padmcv

Miley Byrne wrote: »

Both scenarios are OB. If the ball crosses over a hazard, then over OB, then returns into the red hazard then that ball is OB.

If it carried hazard, OB and hazard again only for it to roll back into hazard is the only way the player could get relief from that hazard in my humble opinion

Looks like my example is only a Local Rule - https://widget.randa.org/nl-nl/rog/2019/rules/committee-procedures/8b

DuckSlice

Miley Byrne wrote: »

Both scenarios are OB. If the ball crosses over a hazard, then over OB, then returns into the red hazard then that ball is OB.

If it carried hazard, OB and hazard again only for it to roll back into hazard is the only way the player could get relief from that hazard in my humble opinion

not sure I follow you here, if the ball finished in the hazard then the ball is still in play. If what you say was the case and im understanding you correctly, then the tee shot we see the pros hit on the 17th as St Andrews wouldn't be allowed.

GreeBo

etxp wrote: »

not sure I follow you here, if the ball finished in the hazard then the ball is still in play. If what you say was the case and im understanding you correctly, then the tee shot we see the pros hit on the 17th as St Andrews wouldn't be allowed.

+1
all that matters is where the ball ends up.
If its in the hazard then it doesn't matter how it got there.
If its OB then it doesn't matter how it got there (including landing in the hazard and flowing OOB!)

lettuce97

GreeBo wrote: »

+1
all that matters is where the ball ends up.
If its in the hazard then it doesn't matter how it got there.
If its OB then it doesn't matter how it got there (including landing in the hazard and flowing OOB!)

That's not right, where the ball entered the hazard is important so it does matter how it got there.

If the point of entry was from OOB, where do you take as your point of entry?

GreeBo

lettuce97 wrote: »

That's not right, where the ball entered the hazard is important so it does matter how it got there.

If the point of entry was from OOB, where do you take as your point of entry?

Point of entry is only valid if the ball is in the hazard.
If you crossed OOB then you are oob unless it finishes back in bounds. In that case it's the point of entry in bounds and it would be a lateral hazard.

DuckSlice

lettuce97 wrote: »

That's not right, where the ball entered the hazard is important so it does matter how it got there.

If the point of entry was from OOB, where do you take as your point of entry?

I think you would have to use the point it crossed from OOB to the hazard as the point of entry.

GreeBo

lettuce97 wrote: »

That's not right, where the ball entered the hazard is important so it does matter how it got there.

If the point of entry was from OOB, where do you take as your point of entry?

Using your Royal Dublin example, if your ball crosses the penalty area, then crosses OOB and then lands back in the penalty area you drop where it last crossed the penalty area within the bounds of the course.
In this case that would be where it first crossed the penalty area (likely back beside the tee), unless it carried all the way and then fell back into the penalty area.

It doesn't look like its possible for it to cross OOB without first crossing the penalty area?

GreeBo

etxp wrote: »

I think you would have to use the point it crossed from OOB to the hazard as the point of entry.

I'm not sure you can do that as the relief area is a point on the course (which by definition OOB isnt)

Miley Byrne

GreeBo wrote: »

First pic is OOB, why do you think OOB doesn't come into it?!

But you also say this "all that matters is where the ball ends up.
If its in the hazard then it doesn't matter how it got there."

How can both be true though?

Miley Byrne

etxp wrote: »

then the tee shot we see the pros hit on the 17th as St Andrews wouldn't be allowed.

Not just the pros;):D

But there is no hazard on that hole so surely not the same thing. They are either OB or in play, no?

DuckSlice

Miley Byrne wrote: »

Not just the pros;):D

But there is no hazard on that hole so surely not the same thing. They are either OB or in play, no?

hazard is still in play as you can play out of the hazard if you wish I would think.

I think what the previous poster was saying was if your ball crosses OOB at any time you are OOB, which is incorrect.

Miley Byrne

Yes, but what I was asking was is Greebo not contradicting himself when he said that the ball in the first image is OB and then goes on to say that if a ball is in a hazard it doesn't matter how it got there?

GreeBo

Miley Byrne wrote: »

But you also say this "all that matters is where the ball ends up.
If its in the hazard then it doesn't matter how it got there."

How can both be true though?

To determine if your ball is in bounds or not, all the matters where it ends up, not how it got there. (your ball can be OOB and roll in bounds or vice versa)

When determining where to drop, assuming your ball is in play, how it got there matters.

Miley Byrne

GreeBo wrote: »

To determine if your ball is in bounds or not, all the matters where it ends up, not how it got there. (your ball can be OOB and roll in bounds or vice versa)

When determining where to drop, assuming your ball is in play, how it got there matters.

So how is the first pic OB as you said earlier? I'm not trying to be obtuse, I just don't get how both can be correct?

DuckSlice

Miley Byrne wrote: »

So how is the first pic OB as you said earlier? I'm not trying to be obtuse, I just don't get how both can be correct?

Looking at the picture again, I think neither of them are OOB.

GreeBo

Miley Byrne wrote: »

So how is the first pic OB as you said earlier? I'm not trying to be obtuse, I just don't get how both can be correct?

That's my fault, I was reading the red line as the OOB line rather than the water (who doesn't use blue for water hazards! )

Seve OB

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTnWhp7Hxbs

Cant really tell where the OOB line is there but a well cut strip suggests that there might be drops allowed