Ireland to contribute €16 billion more than it receives to EU in next 7 years

10000maniacs

Ireland will contribute vastly more to the seven-year EU budget (which is separate to the recovery fund) than we get back. In fact, according to a German MEP who has the official figures, Ireland will contribute almost €16billion more than it receives, while Italy and Spain will be net beneficiaries.
Hmmm. Are we being taken for mugs?

statesaver

Best boys in the class.

riffmongous

So what, you thought we'd just be leaching off the richer countries forever?

Quantum Erasure

If I was German, looking at that, I wouldn't be too happy

Time for us to walk away?

riffmongous

riffmongous wrote: »

So what, you thought we'd just be leaching off the richer countries forever?

Exactly this.

The whole theory is we look after those below and then they get stronger and so on and so forth.

We received more than we gave for 25 odd years.

10000maniacs

riffmongous wrote: »

So what, you thought we'd just be leaching off the richer countries forever?

These are net figures. We have a population of 5 million, while Spain, Italy and Poland have populations of 47, 60 and 38 million respectively.
Seriously.

TheValeyard

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

If I was German, looking at that, I wouldn't be too happy

Yeah, but not overly unhappy. Does not got well for Europe when Germany gets unhappy.

Quantum Erasure

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

If I was German, looking at that, I wouldn't be too happy

German jobs and prosperity depend on demand for their products from within the E.U..
Irish GDP and GNP figures are just distorted due to marketing the Country as a tax haven within the trading block to multinationals who produce little here.
A German Man auf der Strasse should be happier than an Irish man on the street.

With this in mind, can we forego the semi finals and go straight thru to the Eurovision next year, like the other 'big boy' countries?

Tefral

riffmongous wrote: »

So what, you thought we'd just be leaching off the richer countries forever?

Whilst I appreciate this, and honestly its the correct statement to make, don't forget the non direct monetary benefit Ireland gives up with say our massive territorial waters and fishing rights. So its not as clear cut.

We are handing up a massive resource and getting money in return.

namloc1980

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Exactly this.

The whole theory is we look after those below and then they get stronger and so on and so forth.

We received more than we gave for 25 odd years.

We're contributing far more than Germany, France, Austria, Belgium etc. per capita. Great that we're so loaded in fairness.

noodler

40 odd years taking German taxpayers money and some suggest walking away when we have to make a net contribution.

You have to laugh

ohnonotgmail

noodler wrote: »

40 odd years taking German taxpayers money and some suggest walking away when we have to make a net contribution.

You have to laugh

probably the same people who complain about scroungers on the dole

greenfield21

Germans love the weak euro. They are hardly going to start giving out knowing how much they gain by this.

irishproduce

Looking at the countries on the right who are clearly a (broadly) prosperous and we'll organised bunch, it is nice to be in that grouping rather than the bunch on the left

Mr. Karate

riffmongous wrote: »

So what, you thought we'd just be leaching off the richer countries forever?

Ireland is already €230+Billion in debt because these two traitorous parties. A country the size of Ireland has no business being this deep in debt. We'll never be able to pay this back.

10000maniacs

noodler wrote: »

40 odd years taking German taxpayers money and some suggest walking away when we have to make a net contribution.

You have to laugh

Why do you have to laugh? I know we are doing relatively ok, but why are we expected to pay more per capita than any other country in the EU?
And what does long spent 40 year old money have to do with anything?

Podge_irl

10000maniacs wrote: »

Why do you have to laugh? I know we are doing relatively ok, but why are we expected to pay more per capita than any other country in the EU?
And what does long spent 40 year old money have to do with anything?

We're not - Luxembourg pay more per capita.

We are paying more because we are doing better. This should be something to be celebrated. God knows we have taken advantage of our membership for decades.

10000maniacs

Podge_irl wrote: »

We're not - Luxembourg pay more per capita.

We are paying more because we are doing better. This should be something to be celebrated. God knows we have taken advantage of our membership for decades.

Luxembourg is a Duchy with a population of half a million mostly millionaire families. It has a debt to GDP of 22.10%
Doesn't count to be fair.

noodler

noodler wrote: »

40 odd years taking German taxpayers money and some suggest walking away when we have to make a net contribution.

You have to laugh

I was having a laugh, I should have made that clearer. Sorry.

noodler

Mr. Karate wrote: »

Ireland is already €230+Billion in debt because these two traitorous parties. A country the size of Ireland has no business being this deep in debt. We'll never be able to pay this back.

230bn because we borrowed our way through a recession and pandemic?

You realise only about 40bn of that relates to the banks?

thegetawaycar

I'd think we should be a net contributor to be honest but I also think the Southern countries get a ridiculously good deal. Spain and Italy get vast sums but do very little to encourage becoming net contributors themselves.

I can only say for Spain after living there for a decent period, they have a huge bloated public services (way worse than here), loads hired to do very little and a number hired to clean and keep things tidy in a way we can only dream of. Every single person I dealt with and company was paying/being paid a portion officially and a portion in cash, that went from multinational employers, car dealerships, electronic stores etc...

If Ireland had the same attitude, had lots of county council workers cleaning the streets all day every day, invested in a full public health system we'd be running massive deficits and bringing in even less tax every year too.

In over 30 years in the EC/EU they still remain one of the most unequal societies and the poorer never seem to improve their living and income standards.

I can only guess why it's allowed continue is that they take the brunt of the migrant crisis, have quite a big market base and provide cheaper labour to the big companies.

I'd love to see how the decision on who pays what amount is decided, it must not be a debt per capita basis as I believe Ireland is around 45K and Spain 25K.

Dytalus

thegetawaycar wrote: »

I'd think we should be a net contributor to be honest but I also think the Southern countries get a ridiculously good deal. Spain and Italy get vast sums but do very little to encourage becoming net contributors themselves.

thegetawaycar wrote: »

and Italy

Italy have been a net contributor since 2007 at least.

thegetawaycar wrote: »

I'd love to see how the decision on who pays what amount is decided, it must not be a debt per capita basis as I believe Ireland is around 45K and Spain 25K.

Contributions are based on Gross National Income of a member state. A large chunk of what decides the funding received from the MFF is Gross Domestic Product of constituent regions (countries for EU investment funding are split into multiple regions with their own 'level of development' For example, Ireland is split into two regions: One of which (South and East) is considered highly developed, while the second region (everything else) is considered 'Transitory', ie: not exactly underdeveloped but certainly lagging behind the EU average).

Our GNI is inflated due to the multinational giants our economy is hugely reliant on. This does mean there's a chance we're contributing a bit more than we should be, but it's not incumbent on the EU to change the rules because we have made an economy reliant overwhelmingly on foreign companies through policy choices. (I've always been against our over reliance on multinationals, both for economic growth and for tax intake, and do believe our government should do more to invest in our own native business sector - but this is our problem to solve, and not the EUs).

yosser hughes

Has this been discussed at all in the Irish media? I have to say that I haven't heard or seen it discussed but perhaps I missed it.

Mr. Karate

noodler wrote: »

230bn because we borrowed our way through a recession and pandemic?

You realise only about 40bn of that relates to the banks?

We had most of this debt racked up before the pandemic.

Fred Cryton

10000maniacs wrote: »

Ireland will contribute vastly more to the seven-year EU budget (which is separate to the recovery fund) than we get back. In fact, according to a German MEP who has the official figures, Ireland will contribute almost €16billion more than it receives, while Italy and Spain will be net beneficiaries.
Hmmm. Are we being taken for mugs?

So we become rich by receiving huge amounts of EU funds over the years and having free access to the EU single market, and now simpletons are complaining because we now have to be a net contributor?

We should be immensely proud of this. Remember many countries didn't want us to join in 1973 because we were considered too poor. Now we contribute more than Austria because we are a wealthy country. That is remarkable.

Also shows how far Italy has fallen - they have historically been a big net contributor.

MrMusician18

yosser hughes wrote: »

Has this been discussed at all in the Irish media? I have to say that I haven't heard or seen it discussed but perhaps I missed it.

There has been little too no discussion about the Irish net budget contribution that I've seen.

Some have put it down to an near impenetrable EU document, while the more conspiracy minded have said it's an effort to keep the unvarnished truth from the population for fear it would assist/aid euroscepticism.

MrMusician18

Fred Cryton wrote: »

So we become rich by receiving huge amounts of EU funds over the years and having free access to the EU single market, and now simpletons are complaining because we now have to be a net contributor?



This is really just the EU getting a fair share of our over-sized corporation tax take.

That's a bit harsh. There was no quid pro quo that I remember, it was the other nations that decided at the time to be net contributors to assist Ireland's development.

For a €15bn net contribution, there is no harm (I'd argue it's essential) in looking to see what we're getting from the investment. And the answer of "continued participation in the single market isn't good enough". I've said before that the market could exist without the huge budgets.

If the Irish tax take grows by an average of 3bn per year (without changes to rates) over the lifetime of the budget as a result, then it will have been a good investment.

Fred Cryton

MrMusician18 wrote: »

That's a bit harsh. There was no quid pro quo that I remember, it was the other nations that decided at the time to be net contributors to assist Ireland's development.

For a €15bn net contribution, there is no harm (I'd argue it's essential) in looking to see what we're getting from the investment. And the answer of "continued participation in the single market isn't good enough". I've said before that the market could exist without the huge budgets.

If the Irish tax take grows by an average of 3bn per year (without changes to rates) over the lifetime of the budget as a result, then it will have been a good investment.

Why is single market participation not good enough? It costs money to enforce and regulate a huge single market. Without that single market, you can be sure we would be impoverished as companies would have to move to the big markets on the continent.



A lot of the money going to Poland is being spent on building new highways criss-crossing the country. This will benefit everyone, and create new markets for higher value Irish goods. Exactly as what happened here.

thegetawaycar

thegetawaycar wrote: »

I'd think we should be a net contributor to be honest but I also think the Southern countries get a ridiculously good deal. Spain and Italy get vast sums but do very little to encourage becoming net contributors themselves.

I can only say for Spain after living there for a decent period, they have a huge bloated public services (way worse than here), loads hired to do very little and a number hired to clean and keep things tidy in a way we can only dream of. Every single person I dealt with and company was paying/being paid a portion officially and a portion in cash, that went from multinational employers, car dealerships, electronic stores etc...

If Ireland had the same attitude, had lots of county council workers cleaning the streets all day every day, invested in a full public health system we'd be running massive deficits and bringing in even less tax every year too.

In over 30 years in the EC/EU they still remain one of the most unequal societies and the poorer never seem to improve their living and income standards.

I can only guess why it's allowed continue is that they take the brunt of the migrant crisis, have quite a big market base and provide cheaper labour to the big companies.

I'd love to see how the decision on who pays what amount is decided, it must not be a debt per capita basis as I believe Ireland is around 45K and Spain 25K.

Wow. I mean, wow. They do not have a bloated public sector. They have a very efficient public sector. They have the numbers needed to actually run the place nationally unlike Ireland. They have the numbers so you don't spend months waiting for a meeting or a doctor's visit.

They have a fairer public pension scheme. They have better social services and the poor as you describe them, benefit immensely from the systems in place.

I was never paid cash on hand, always done through the books but yes, cash in hand happens just as it does in Ireland.

That's not how the eu numbers are decided though and Spain isn't running massive deficits.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

With this in mind, can we forego the semi finals and go straight thru to the Eurovision next year, like the other 'big boy' countries?

You realise they pay for that right? You want Ireland to pay to be in the Eurovision.

namloc1980 wrote: »

We're contributing far more than Germany, France, Austria, Belgium etc. per capita. Great that we're so loaded in fairness.

We're one of the highest income countries as well though. Per person income, the Irish are very high up. Higher than any of those countries and we pay less tax as well.

This is not a bad thing for us. The mistake we make is we give everything back in tax breaks instead of increasing services.

Dytalus

MrMusician18 wrote: »

That's a bit harsh. There was no quid pro quo that I remember, it was the other nations that decided at the time to be net contributors to assist Ireland's development.

They 'decided' the same way we decided. By joining the EU and agreeing the mechanism by which contributions are calculated. Because they recognised (as our government now recognises) that by assisting the development of less developed and struggling members of the Union the Union as a whole becomes richer and stronger.

If you make the people of Bulgaria wealthier and more stable, you get a larger number of customers, and more money, for your own products and services. This is a large part of why the EU's structural and investment funds exist.

Mr. Karate

Fred Cryton wrote: »

So we become rich by receiving huge amounts of EU funds over the years and having free access to the EU single market, and now simpletons are complaining because we now have to be a net contributor?

The Country is in no position to be contributing €16 Billion. These two parties racked up over €230 Billion in debt already. If this was a hundred years or so ago their heads would have already been chopped off by now. Certainly not re elected back into power. And this is after Leo quadrupled our payments to the WHO because he wanted to virtue signal after Trump pulled out of the WHO.

Idbatterim

I believe much of the EU money is meant to go on infrastructure? then why is ours so bloody appalling?!

Fred Cryton

Mr. Karate wrote: »

The Country is in no position to be contributing €16 Billion. These two parties racked up over €230 Billion in debt already. If this was a hundred years or so ago their heads would have already been chopped off by now. Certainly not re elected back into power. And this is after Leo quadrupled our payments to the WHO because he wanted to virtue signal after Trump pulled out of the WHO.

Do people who like to bring up our national debt realise that every country in the world other than oil rich Norway have an enormous national debt, often well exceeding ours as a percentage of national income?

Mr. Karate

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Do people who like to bring up our national debt realise that every country in the world other than oil rich Norway have an enormous national debt, often well exceeding ours as a percentage of national income?

A Country the size of Ireland has NO business being €230+Billion in debt.

ohnonotgmail

Idbatterim wrote: »

I believe much of the EU money is meant to go on infrastructure? then why is ours so bloody appalling?!

do you remember driving between our major cities before they built motorways?

Chips Lovell

That graphic has been shared around on Twitter the past few days. It originated on Deutsche Welle, but is dated from May, long before the budget was agreed.

AFAIK, no official figures have been released yet on member states net contributions. There's little point in having a row about this until the correct figures are available.

MrMusician18

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Why is single market participation not good enough? It costs money to enforce and regulate a huge single market. Without that single market, you can be sure we would be impoverished as companies would have to move to the big markets on the continent.



A lot of the money going to Poland is being spent on building new highways criss-crossing the country. This will benefit everyone, and create new markets for higher value Irish goods. Exactly as what happened here.

It doesn't cost €1.1tn to regulate the single market.

Idbatterim

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

do you remember driving between our major cities before they built motorways?

they spent a fortune on the roads, but rail is a disgrace and so is the water infrastructure... still dumping raw sewage into our rivers and oceans in 2020!

the transport systems in dublin and cork are comedy, absolute comedy!

MrMusician18

Dytalus wrote: »

They 'decided' the same way we decided. By joining the EU and agreeing the mechanism by which contributions are calculated. Because they recognised (as our government now recognises) that by assisting the development of less developed and struggling members of the Union the Union as a whole becomes richer and stronger.

If you make the people of Bulgaria wealthier and more stable, you get a larger number of customers, and more money, for your own products and services. This is a large part of why the EU's structural and investment funds exist.

They're is a good argument about proximity to the investment especially in Ireland case. Increasing the prosperity of Eastern Europe will have diminishing returns as the money goes further and further east. So even if Europe turns Bulgaria into the most prosperous nation on earth, the impact of their relative wealth is going to be negligible here.

trashcan

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Time for us to walk away?

We've had our fun money, and that's all that matters ?

Mr. Karate

Mr. Karate wrote: »

The Country is in no position to be contributing €16 Billion. These two parties racked up over €230 Billion in debt already. If this was a hundred years or so ago their heads would have already been chopped off by now. Certainly not re elected back into power. And this is after Leo quadrupled our payments to the WHO because he wanted to virtue signal after Trump pulled out of the WHO.

What the **** does that have to do with the eu budget agreement?

Should we just all sulk in the corner until we want to play again?

We would be absolutely ****ed without the eu. We would never have even gotten close to the Celtic tiger if not for the eu funding is at the start.

Idbatterim wrote: »

they spent a fortune on the roads, but rail is a disgrace and so is the water infrastructure... still dumping raw sewage into our rivers and oceans in 2020!

the transport systems in dublin and cork are comedy, absolute comedy!

So let's leave the eu because the money they have us wasn't spent how you wanted?

jimmycrackcorm

Mr. Karate wrote: »

A Country the size of Ireland has NO business being €230+Billion in debt.

On what basis? Over 11 years we will spend that much on social welfare alone.
Perhaps we have no business spending that much on SW? After all the vast bulk of that debt comes from day-to-day government spending on generous SW and public sector pay

TuringBot47

I'd be all for helping the EU as a whole.
But when liberal countries in the EU allow an influx of non-EU immigrants from Africa and Middle East countries, typically through the southern EU countries and we have to subsidize that, there has to be a point to say stop. I'd say at some point in the future there will need to be military intervention to stop uncontrolled migration of Africans to Europe.

We are we letting Africans into the EU and even into Ireland ?
Who is behind it ?
Is it nameless economists trying to say we need to import more people to meet pension and workforce demands ? If that's the case it's better to subsidize existing EU citizens to have larger families.
If it's some liberal bleeding heart thing to let "refugees" in, then women and children should be let in, not adult men.
Although that brings about it's own problems, with single mothers not able to control their teenage sons.


I've read about broad conspiracy theories about trying to get other countries to start to accept Africans because climate change is going to force non-Equatorial countries to accept massive numbers of them in the next 50 years with climate change.


Look at all the adverts on TV... they're slipping in happy family images of interracial couples every 15 minutes. Who is behind that ?
Is it just lazy marketing... trying to throw in as many market segments into one advert scene? Or just English marketing, where they had 40 or 50 years of mixed marriages from their colonial past and immigration policies.

trashcan

trashcan wrote: »

We've had our fun money, and that's all that matters ?

It's time for us to return to our traditional strengths.

Trading in spuds and emigration.

Mr. Karate

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

What the **** does that have to do with the eu budget agreement?

Should we just all sulk in the corner until we want to play again?

We would be absolutely ****ed without the eu. We would never have even gotten close to the Celtic tiger if not for the eu funding is at the start.

I don't mind contributing, but not €16 Billion. We're not in a position to pay that much at this time. We're also ****ed because of the Eu's One size fits all economic policy. They're part of the reason for the Country excessive debt. Not just because of FF/FG's fecklessness.

antimatterx

We have been taking other countries money since we joined the EU. Their money transformed this country, and now it's are turn to help other countries grow. You should be happy our small country is in such a position to make a big contribution. It shows how far we have come.

Mr. Karate

antimatterx wrote: »

We have been taking other countries money since we joined the EU. Their money transformed this country, and now it's are turn to help other countries grow. You should be happy our small country is in such a position to make a big contribution. It shows how far we have come.

We're not in a position to make such a big contribution.

theological

10000maniacs wrote: »

Ireland will contribute vastly more to the seven-year EU budget (which is separate to the recovery fund) than we get back. In fact, according to a German MEP who has the official figures, Ireland will contribute almost €16billion more than it receives, while Italy and Spain will be net beneficiaries.
Hmmm. Are we being taken for mugs?

The UK left just at the right time.

The problem with the EU is that it continues claiming that the answer to every single crisis is "more Europe". Or rather every crisis is an opportunity to take more control and more sovereignty from member states.

Why is there never a scenario where the answer could be "less Europe" and more national sovereignty?

antimatterx

Mr. Karate wrote: »

We're not in a position to make such a big contribution.

We have plenty of money. Lets not pretend we don't.