The new 2020 National Development Plan

jd

Re expressway, my thoughts were that it covers anything from 2+2 to motorway, with spec to be decided at design stage?

KrisW1001

My understanding is that Expressway = Type 2, and Motorway = Type 1.

Both are dual carriageways with minimum of 2 lanes each way and grade-separated junctions. Type 2 does allow for at-grade roundabouts, but any that are being built have very widely spaced junctions, so this isn't a big deal.

spacetweek

KrisW1001 wrote: »

My understanding is that Expressway = Type 2, and Motorway = Type 1.

Both are dual carriageways with minimum of 2 lanes each way and grade-separated junctions. Type 2 does allow for at-grade roundabouts, but any that are being built have very widely spaced junctions, so this isn't a big deal.

The use of the word expressway in that document is confusing as that's not a term we usually use in Ireland. Though I suspect it's the new name for 2+2 since it occurs in the document so many times.

My experience in the UK is that roundabouts on high-quality DCs are not a great idea as you have to suddenly come to a stop from motorway speed as many DCs in the UK are 70mph.

marno21

spacetweek wrote: »

The use of the word expressway in that document is confusing as that's not a term we usually use in Ireland. Though I suspect it's the new name for 2+2 since it occurs in the document so many times.

My experience in the UK is that roundabouts on high-quality DCs are not a great idea as you have to suddenly come to a stop from motorway speed as many DCs in the UK are 70mph.

To date there hasn’t been much 2+2 opened and all of the schemes are isolated sections, many of them short.

Now though there’s over 400km of 2+2 in planning so the concept of 2+2 having its own identity has become a concept within TII

See this presentation for more information:

https://www.tii.ie/tii-library/conferences_and_seminars/nrc/nra-nrc-2019/12-Eoin-Doyle-Arup-Presentation.pdf

Chris_5339762

spacetweek wrote: »

N25 Carrigtwohill-Midleton upgrade will be a motorway.

I don't think this is the plan. Type-1 DC with 120kmh limit yes, but I don't think it'll be an M25.

KrisW1001

Applying Motorway restrictions to this route would not go down well, as it goes through a rural area. Best to keep it as an all-purpose route.

marno21

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I don't think this is the plan. Type-1 DC with 120kmh limit yes, but I don't think it'll be an M25.

That was the plan before the plans to reclassify the N40. I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see Ovens-Midleton (or perhaps beyond in either direction in the future) reclassified given the circumstances.

Chris_5339762

Not wanting to drag this off topic again, but I haven't heard a thing about an N40 reclassification in some time. I had heard rumours somewhere (maybe on here) that the plan had been quietly dropped.

KrisW1001

marno21 wrote: »

See this presentation for more information:

https://www.tii.ie/tii-library/conferences_and_seminars/nrc/nra-nrc-2019/12-Eoin-Doyle-Arup-Presentation.pdf

Very interesting, thanks for sharing the link.

So, a 2+2 "Expressway" is a vehicle-only road with almost none of the restrictions of a motorway and a lower top speed.

Motorway:
120 km/h
No Learner drivers,
No vehicles under 50cc, under 50km/h max speed
No Cyclists
No Pedestrians
No Animals

Expressway:
100 km/h
Learner drivers OK
Slow and small-engined vehicles OK
Cyclists OK, but on segregated path
Pedestrians OK, but on segregated path
No Animals

If that needs a special sign, then I'd vote for the "Car" one as used across Europe, only for consistency, although I think the "staggered-junction bridgeless motorway" symbol captures the meaning of a road type that is between a regular road and a motorway in terms of regulations. (Italy's expressways are marked by the motorway symbol, but on the background colour used for primary routes - blue - rather than that used for motorways - green)

BelfastVanMan

KrisW1001 wrote: »

Very interesting, thanks for sharing the link.

So, a 2+2 "Expressway" is a vehicle-only road with almost none of the restrictions of a motorway and a lower top speed.

Motorway:
120 km/h
No Learner drivers,
No vehicles under 50cc, under 50km/h max speed
No Cyclists
No Pedestrians
No Animals

Expressway:
100 km/h
Learner drivers OK
Slow and small-engined vehicles OK
Cyclists OK, but on segregated path
Pedestrians OK, but on segregated path
No Animals

If that needs a special sign, then I'd vote for the "Car" one as used across Europe, only for consistency, although I think the "staggered-junction bridgeless motorway" symbol captures the meaning of a road type that is between a regular road and a motorway in terms of regulations. (Italy's expressways are marked by the motorway symbol, but on the background colour used for primary routes - blue - rather than that used for motorways - green)

How about the Motorway "Chopsticks" sign, only in green instead of blue?

KrisW1001

BelfastVanMan wrote: »

How about the Motorway "Chopsticks" sign, only in green instead of blue?

The Italians do this, but the Italian "superstrada" roads are basically motorways with a lower speed limit. The big distinction is that in Italy, motorways (autostrade) are all tolled, so this category is more of a "non-toll motorway" than an "expressway".

The restrictions on who can use an expressway are not as strong as on a motorway. I think the motorway symbol should be left to those roads with blue signs that are restricted to fast vehicles only.

The only argument for having a special symbol at all is to make it clear that pedestrians and pedal-cycles are not permitted on the main traffic lanes (as they are at present on all-purpose roads).

spacetweek

Or to make it look like an area or town is served by a high-quality road.

marno21

https://www.shannonside.ie/news/local/roscommon/contract-34-km-stretch-will-bypass-towns-villages-n5-will-soon-awarded/

N5 scheme contract award shortly. This was sent to ABP in December 2017 so it will be just over 3 years from ABP submission to construction contract award.

Everyone involved here deserves massive praise for this timeline. A lengthy 35km scheme in an archaeologically challenging area. No reason why this can't be done going forward provided there aren't significant delays with ABP.

For comparison, the M28 scheme was submitted to ABP 7 months before the N5 scheme. The N5 scheme will be under construction before advance works start on the M28.

marno21

This has been approved by Cabinet.

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2021/0727/1237597-ndp-regan/

To be published in September. Hopefully the Minister hasn't wreaked absolute havoc on it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117677618#Comment_117677618

Which minister?

What would be considered "havoc" given that this covers a lot more than roads?

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117677760#Comment_117677760

The Minister for Transport of course, who has ultimate control over the roads programme.

As regards havoc, previous ministers have generally let TII have the most input given that they are the state agency that is most knowledgeable on the needs and requirements of the roads programme. The current Minister appears to have a desire to reverse years of expert policy based on his own beliefs and ideas, despite having no expertise in this area. I have a rather lengthy post on this which I haven't got around to finishing yet that I will throw up soon.

It does cover more than roads. This is the Roads forum however where we will only be discussing the plan from the point of view of the roads elements. There will likely (hopefully) also be a big increase in public transport and active travel funding, which will realistically see the commencing of construction of MetroLink, DART Expansion, BusConnects in Dublin, Cork and Galway (given that this includes funding envelopes for the next 5 years). I would also be optimistic that the Cork rail expansion and DART tunnel elements are in there. There are a shedload of greenways and active travel plans that hopefully will get the green light also, but discussion of same is best done elsewhere (I will start a thread on this shortly).