After 4 days on hunger strike Maajid Nawaz secures debate about Uyghar Muslims

2u2me

Fair play to him. Someone at least is highlighting this topic. He's been on hunger strike for the last 4 days and now his petition has hit the target of over 100,000 signatures.

Long live non-violent resistance.

His goal is to secure a debate in the UK Parliament on the imposition of Maginsky Act style sanctions on individuals who are responsible for gross human rights violations, and is promoting the following petitions:

• Non- UK Citizens sign the petition by clicking HERE
• UK Citizens sign the petition by clicking HERE

The world seems to have turned a blind eye to this abuse. We appear to care more about globalised supply chains, cheap labour and greed than fairness and respect for fundamental human rights. As a result, civil society and our political establishment is at risk of being politically, morally and economically compromised by the Chinese Communist Party (CCP).

Quilliam Foundation

taytobreath

the Chinese ambassador to the UK was asked about it on the Andrew Marr show this morning

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-53463242/china-s-ambassador-challenged-on-treatment-of-uighurs

sweet_trip

If any of you are interested: here's an article on china's concentration camps.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/China_hidden_camps


horrible imperialist country.

suicide_circus

This is the country that's going to take over as American hegemony subsides.

Bad times ahead.

TheValeyard

suicide_circus wrote: »

This is the country that's going to take over as American hegemony subsides.

Bad times ahead.

I'm not so sure about that. They seem to be pissing off their neighbours and most of the civilised world. Their power comes from brutal repression of their own citizens and economic outlooks are not that good. Even population projections would be a worry for them. I'd say China is abit of a tinderbox these days.

statesaver

taytobreath wrote: »

the Chinese ambassador to the UK was asked about it on the Andrew Marr show this morning

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-53463242/china-s-ambassador-challenged-on-treatment-of-uighurs

Could you imagine Irish government/RTE, Today FM or Newstalk doing anything like this ?

Selling Irish beef to China is more important

ILoveYourVibes

statesaver wrote: »

Could you imagine Irish government/RTE, Today FM or Newstalk doing anything like this ?

Selling Irish beef to China is more important

This is very true.

Thanks for the thread OP.

2u2me

TheValeyard wrote: »

I'm not so sure about that. They seem to be pissing off their neighbours and most of the civilised world. Their power comes from brutal repression of their own citizens and economic outlooks are not that good. Even population projections would be a worry for them. I'd say China is abit of a tinderbox these days.

Their power far extends beyond that these days, from Australian Universities to Hollywood they've been buying influence for a long time now.

Gatling

China does what China wants and nobody will tell them otherwise you would think after Tiananmen Square they would have had a watershed moment , but no they got more and more powerful on the worlds stage to the point many countries are afraid to speak out for fear of facing some kind of action against them ,the efforts they have gone through to isolate Taiwan is crazy , along with Hong Kong and the Uyghurs which they want wiped out ,10+ million Uyghurs living in China yet no one stands up and says this is wrong ,
Along with the 99 - line claims to the whole south China sea

padz

china is more embedded in the irish govt than most of you think. right up the food chain to minister cown being removed to govt bonds and laundering 1bln on ppe.... you dont think ireland gets into bed with china without getting Fked do you?

perfectkama

China has displaced Russia as a greater threat, the ccp are are north korea leaders on steroids europe will have to be ready to impose sanctions on this vile leadership.
Anyone who questions them outside about hong kong can be arrested they should be put out from g7, UN or any other international affiliation they are a poison state threatening all around them.

Donald Trump

perfectkama wrote: »

China has displaced Russia as a greater threat, the ccp are are north korea leaders on steroids europe will have to be ready to impose sanctions on this vile leadership.
Anyone who questions them outside about hong kong can be arrested they should be put out from g7, UN or any other international affiliation they are a poison state threatening all around them.

What are they like as a bunch of lads though?

Captcha

the germans are ccp bootlickers too, selling bmw and audi are more important than human rights. I guess BMW helped with the gas chambers and Hugo Boss made a very beautiful nazi uniform. The ccp say XingJang is a beautiful scenery when asked about the drone footage of thousands of blindfolded, shaved muslims being put on nazi style trains

ancapailldorcha

Donald Trump wrote: »

What are they like as a bunch of lads though?

My boss is Chinese and she's lovely. Obviously, I don't talk to her about the concentration camps her homeland is running and the authoritarian dystopian dictatorship it has become though.

suicide_circus

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

My boss is Chinese and she's lovely. Obviously, I don't talk to her about the concentration camps her homeland is running and the authoritarian dystopian dictatorship it has become though.

totes awks

ancapailldorcha

suicide_circus wrote: »

totes awks

Not during a pandemic where only one of us can be in the lab at a time.

Outkast_IRE

On a person to person level - The chinese are the same as any other people - some are good, some are bad etc.

The problem is with single party politics you cannot stick your head above the parapet without it getting chopped off. The CCP is the problem , there is no room for debate , the most powerful voice rules with an iron fist.

screamer

Saw a piece about this on euro news one night and they were talking about forced abortions and sterilisations of the women in this group. Awful stuff. We really in the west need to take a look at ourselves and think do we want to keep pouring trade and money into China???? I know I am purposely trying to avoid anything made in China since the lockdown. I will spend extra on not from China stuff and I know I am only one person, but at least it makes me feel like I am not contributing to enriching China any longer

Donald Trump

Donald Trump wrote: »

What are they like as a bunch of lads though?

Individually, most Chinese are really nice. You get the odd tool, but considering the size of the population, most Chinese I've met have been pretty good. The problem is more to do with culture. There's a "culture of silence" that goes back long before the CCP was created, so you won't often find Chinese people expressing their genuine opinions on subjects. Posters here like to believe that China is controlled completely by the government, but that's just ignorance. No nation the size of China could be. Instead, it's more to do with their cultural history. History being important here.

There's 56 ish (I can never remember exactly) ethnic groups in China with the Han having the clear majority, with perhaps the Manchu coming second. There's a strong attitude that Han are the true Chinese, and it shows throughout their cultural norms. Minority cultures are generally protected, because they are minorities, and pose no threat to the status quo. There's a zero tolerance of cultural groups who refuse to integrate, with assimilation following quickly after. People can keep their traditions but they need to conform to mainstream Han cultural norms, especially in behavior. Which is why Xinjiang gets so much attention, because they've tried to keep their own culture/religion. Inner Mongolia is also a good example with the Chinese engaging in ethnic cleansing of the population, luring the young away with promises of riches so that they become properly "Chinese".

With regards to China being a danger as a nation... definitely yes, they are. They have a massive inferiority complex due to history. Before the western powers arrived they were essentially the worlds superpower, and the richest nation in the world. From the moment, the colonial powers (and the US) arrived, their power has declined considerably, along with their territory. The loss of face and life due to WW2 and the lack of recognition from the Allies regarding Chinese/Japanese territory, compounds this inferiority complex. They have something to prove... and they will seek to prove themselves superior as a culture.

Personally, I've loved living in China for the last decade, but that time has ended. It's swung to a much more nationalistic attitude, with less tolerance for foreign opinion, and a more aggressive attitude towards westernization within China.. there's a massive push to return to traditional values, even while corruption is rampant. So.. we're likely to see China reverting to something closer to what they were like before 1978. A harsher China with less interest in Diplomacy, and greater expression of militancy. But then, the common attitude is that they have little choice, considering the growth of US/Allied military bases surrounding them. There has been a considerable buildup of military all around China's borders, supplied by the US.. so.. it's a combination of factors.

The Chinese people are a great people. It's just really complicated due to it's size. There's massive disparities in education, and awareness of what is beyond the boundaries of their local areas. Few Chinese pay attention to anything that doesn't directly involve them, and affects their lives directly.. It's not about fear. It's the pragmatic/practical aspect of their culture after 2000 years of development. Keep your head down, and avoid any attention.

All the same, I wouldn't want a militant, nationalistic, and "outraged" China. The Chinese are a very emotional people, with a liking for mob mentality, and bursts of violence. Should they feel slighted, they'll line up in their hundreds of millions to fight for their country... You'll quickly see the online debates dry up, and people becoming very loyal.. It's just a core part of their cultural norm.

As for Uyghar Muslims, the world doesn't care. Just as most Chinese people don't care. Oh.. this has come at the right time, because the West is looking for excuses to be pissed at China.. but the plight of the Uyghar Muslims, Tibetans, Mongolians, etc has been going on for decades, and few people really cared... and it's highly doubtful that China will be forced into doing anything about them. Instead, China will be punished, and this **** will continue..

Captcha

screamer wrote: »

Saw a piece about this on euro news one night and they were talking about forced abortions and sterilisations of the women in this group. Awful stuff. We really in the west need to take a look at ourselves and think do we want to keep pouring trade and money into China???? I know I am purposely trying to avoid anything made in China since the lockdown. I will spend extra on not from China stuff and I know I am only one person, but at least it makes me feel like I am not contributing to enriching China any longer

Non Chinese products are better as well. Buy for life, not for a few months

Sudden Valley

I wonder if on chinese equivalent of boards whether Islamaphobia (fear rather than hate of Muslims) is prevalent. I think this policy against the Uyghars may not just be a government policy against muslims but is also silently supported by the non-muslim Chinese population. I suspect that this also the case in Burma.
Weird that both the "Right" and "left" supporters here hold the same opinion on supporting Muslims in a far away country that is currently very unpopular in the West.

Sudden Valley

Sudden Valley wrote: »

I wonder if on chinese equivalent of boards whether Islamaphobia (fear rather than hate of Muslims) is prevalent. I think this policy against the Uyghars may not just be a government policy against muslims but is also silently supported by the non-muslim Chinese population. I suspect that this also the case in Burma.
Weird that both the "Right" and "left" supporters here hold the same opinion on supporting Muslims in a far away country that is currently very unpopular in the West.

The CCP hates religion because it holds authority outside of their control. Back in their history, Buddhism spread and was encouraged as long as it only served the people... but the moment that monks entered politics (and got rich), their temples were attacked/destroyed. The same happened for the Daoists. When Christianity started spreading, it was tolerated as long as it remained nonpolitical, but that didn't last.

Later, when the CCP took control, they exercised the same attitude towards religion. If you kept it low key, and didn't make waves, you could worship whatever way you wanted. Churches sprung up, as did cemeteries (even though cremation was the traditional way), but then the RCC started getting political and involving itself with abortion issues... so the CCP started destroying churches, and hunting priests.

There are many enclaves of Muslims throughout China. Xi'an, the city where I lived, has a sizable population of Muslims, with (to my knowledge) over 12 different places of worship, some of which are rather impressive. Their culture, especially food is celebrated, and you'll often encounter Muslims in their particular fashions on their prayer days. They're mostly accepted... as long as they keep their heads down, and conform to mainstream behavioral norms. The same is true for the Christians, although the churches are monitored, and their congregations are ID'd.

It's not about belief... it's about the CCP's paranoia about any authority that might challenge it's control over the people. It's the peoples revolution that created the CCP, so they're very wary about influence affecting "the peasant" populations. The uneducated masses. There are, after all, more Christians in China than in all of Europe... People having their religion is common, although, most Chinese don't advertise their faiths. The rise of various cults in the 60s/70s also challenged the CCP and furthered their distrust of religions with leaderships. Buddhism does well now in China because there is no central authority, and it avoids politics completely.

The problem for the Uyghar Muslims, is less about being Muslim, and more about culture. They're targeted because they want to keep their identity separate from the Chinese. The CCP won't tolerate that from anyone within their borders.

As for online stuff... don't believe most of what you read. Chinese people will speak online all manner of things, but in RL will behave as expected.

y0ssar1an22

Sudden Valley wrote: »

I wonder if on chinese equivalent of boards whether Islamaphobia (fear rather than hate of Muslims) is prevalent. I think this policy against the Uyghars may not just be a government policy against muslims but is also silently supported by the non-muslim Chinese population. I suspect that this also the case in Burma.
Weird that both the "Right" and "left" supporters here hold the same opinion on supporting Muslims in a far away country that is currently very unpopular in the West.

this lads youtube channel is interesting. he recently left china

Captcha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FYc7lOiAsU

Good speech Attorny General, WIlliam Barr

biko

Great place for dystopian surveillance state.
Not great for dissidents.

JohnnyFlash

Not the right type of communism, obviously.

Captcha

The ccp (Chinese government) is a criminal regime for many reasons, their tentacles affect everyone without knowing, some directly feel it, like this Irish guy just doing his job, cannot exit china now and stuck is a craphole prison eating mouldy rice and vegetables, likely laced with cancer or forced sterilization. Maybe they will sell his liver, heart, kidneys over time, or cut all his hair off and make wigs. This. is. literally. what. they. are. doing. to. the. muslims in Xingjang

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/he-doesnt-know-if-hell-ever-see-us-again-family-of-irish-businessman-barred-from-leaving-china-for-past-16-months-in-despair-39377039.html

The wife of an Irish businessman who has been barred from leaving China 16 months ago said that she doesn’t know when he will come home again.

Senior Irish aviation leasing executive Richard O'Halloran, who lived with his wife Tara and four children in Foxrock in Dublin, was given an exit ban 16 months ago after due to his involvement in a court case.

Mr O'Halloran, a director of Dublin-registered China International Aviation Leasing Service Ltd (CALS), arrived in China last year, has become involved in a court case in relation to the chairman and owner of CALS, Chinese businessman Min Jiedong.

Mr O'Halloran's case was first reported in the Sunday Independent in February and now his wife maintains that he is “completely innocent” and has been unable to leave the country, mostly staying in his hotel in Shanghai for fear of contracting the coronavirus as he has an underlying lung condition.

“He’s 100pc innocent, he’s done nothing wrong,” said Mrs O’Halloran.

“It’s about 500 days now that he’s been gone.

“He’s been interrogated by the police, it’s been horrific.”

Mrs O’Halloran has said that the ordeal has caused the family a lot of stress and Mr O’Halloran was not able to travel home when her mother passed away in January.

“My mother died in January and Richard wasn’t here, he couldn’t say goodbye to her.

“She adored my husband. It was just so unfair that he wasn’t allowed to come and attend her funeral or be with us.

“Our children are aged six, eight, 11 and 13 and it’s very hard for the younger ones to understand why he’s not coming back or if he’s ever coming back.”

“We were strongly advised not to travel to China to see him because there’s a risk that I could get detained,” she explained.

While the previous Tánaiste Simon Coveney held a meeting with Mrs O’Halloran, she said that they have been left “completely in the dark” by the Irish government.

“We’ve been in contact with the embassies but they don’t push at a government level.

“We’re really calling out for somebody to help us.

“He’s now saying that he doesn’t know if he’ll ever see us again,” she added.

She has started an online petition, which has garnered over 5,000 signatures.

“We don’t know where to turn next, we’re at our wits end.”

The department of foreign affairs said that it is aware of the case, is providing consular assistance and “it is policy not to comment on individual cases”.

When contacted by Independent.ie, the Chinese embassy in Dublin said that Mr O’Halloran is restricted from leaving the country “but his personal freedom within China and every legal rights are fully guaranteed”.

In a statement, the embassy alleged that Mr O’Halloran is an “operator” of CIALS and alleged that he has “control over the company’s operating revenue”.

“It is hoped that Mr. O’Halloran cooperates positively with Shanghai police to bring this case to a successful conclusion at an early date.”

MrMusician18

Deleted User wrote: »

The CCP hates religion because it holds authority outside of their control. Back in their history, Buddhism spread and was encouraged as long as it only served the people... but the moment that monks entered politics (and got rich), their temples were attacked/destroyed. The same happened for the Daoists. When Christianity started spreading, it was tolerated as long as it remained nonpolitical, but that didn't last.

Later, when the CCP took control, they exercised the same attitude towards religion. If you kept it low key, and didn't make waves, you could worship whatever way you wanted. Churches sprung up, as did cemeteries (even though cremation was the traditional way), but then the RCC started getting political and involving itself with abortion issues... so the CCP started destroying churches, and hunting priests.

There are many enclaves of Muslims throughout China. Xi'an, the city where I lived, has a sizable population of Muslims, with (to my knowledge) over 12 different places of worship, some of which are rather impressive. Their culture, especially food is celebrated, and you'll often encounter Muslims in their particular fashions on their prayer days. They're mostly accepted... as long as they keep their heads down, and conform to mainstream behavioral norms. The same is true for the Christians, although the churches are monitored, and their congregations are ID'd.

It's not about belief... it's about the CCP's paranoia about any authority that might challenge it's control over the people. It's the peoples revolution that created the CCP, so they're very wary about influence affecting "the peasant" populations. The uneducated masses. There are, after all, more Christians in China than in all of Europe... People having their religion is common, although, most Chinese don't advertise their faiths. The rise of various cults in the 60s/70s also challenged the CCP and furthered their distrust of religions with leaderships. Buddhism does well now in China because there is no central authority, and it avoids politics completely.

The problem for the Uyghar Muslims, is less about being Muslim, and more about culture. They're targeted because they want to keep their identity separate from the Chinese. The CCP won't tolerate that from anyone within their borders.

As for online stuff... don't believe most of what you read. Chinese people will speak online all manner of things, but in RL will behave as expected.

When it comes to the western powers the CCP and the general Chinese population would be on the same page in that it ranges from mild hostility to outright hatred. A lot of people in the west don't know but the western powers record in China, particularly the British, was less than stellar during the 19 century and they have not been forgotten or forgiven. For example, the sacking of the Summer Palace (western equivalent would be like the Chinese burning down the Vatican or Versailles) is still an open sore there today.

So with the Chinese new found might, they are in no mood to pay heed to the likes of what the UK might think.

The Uighur issue is indeed cultural. They tend to look west rather than east and have more in common with central Asian states than Beijing. Beijing fears this might lead to requests for further autonomy and eventually secession.

MrMusician18

MrMusician18 wrote: »

When it comes to the western powers the CCP and the general Chinese population would be on the same page in that it ranges from mild hostility to outright hatred. A lot of people in the west don't know but the western powers record in China, particularly the British, was less than stellar during the 19 century and they have not been forgotten or forgiven. For example, the sacking of the Summer Palace (western equivalent would be like the Chinese burning down the Vatican or Versailles) is still an open sore there today.

Most Westerners don't appreciate the sheers size and the population of China. Few Chinese people ever have a decent conversation with a westerner beyond talking about hobbies or the weather. Some students have time with western teachers, but still, the actual content of conversations is extremely limited. As such, for most Chinese people, they rely on traditional stereotypes, and/or representations of foreign behavior in western movies. We don't exactly show the best sides of western culture in our movies.

Most normal Chinese people find western culture to be full of hypocrisy. One rule for westerners, and a different rule for others. High standards are expected for other countries like China, but western nations often fail to meet the same standards. They're generally bemused by the western media, and understands that western politics is corrupt. And IMHO they're not far wrong... Western culture is full of hypocrisy and double standards while expecting others to be "better", and then punishing those who don't conform.

There is little actual hatred of westerners though. It's certainly there with some people, but mostly, Chinese people find westerners confusing, and there is a lot of contempt towards us. At the same time though, there's jealousy for our economic success and standards of living... So, jealousy and contempt intermixed.

Still, every historical slight or insult is remembered...

So with the Chinese new found might, they are in no mood to pay heed to the likes of what the UK might think.

Why should they? They feel that they've eclipsed the UK in every way...

The Uighur issue is indeed cultural. They tend to look west rather than east and have more in common with central Asian states than Beijing. Beijing fears this might lead to requests for further autonomy and eventually secession.

Kinda... it's more to do with the spread of fundamental Islamic teachings, which has swept the Muslim world, and Beijing is afraid of links forming with other Islamic groups, namely Iran. China already has a mostly dormant Muslim population and doesn't want them influenced by what's been happening in the M.East. But yes, the fear of requests for further autonomy and eventually secession, are a very real worry... mostly because they will deny them, and then, they'll have to face suicide bombers going off in their very populated centers. In a way, it's a reasonable fear. All the same though, their need to assimilate cultures is at the core of all this.

sweet_trip

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Not the right type of communism, obviously.

The CCP is state capitalism fyi.
There's nothing communist about it other than the name.

sweet_trip

sweet_trip wrote: »

The CCP is state capitalism fyi.
There's nothing communist about it other than the name.

For the most part, yes, although on a local level, some provinces/districts still hold on to their communist past. It's rare though. There was a change in the 70s to put communism behind them, and embrace something different. State Capitalism with superficial overtones of communism.

2u2me

Deleted User wrote: »

The CCP hates religion because it holds authority outside of their control.

Exactly this is the very problem with the CCP. They hate anything that could threaten their authority. The most dissenters I've ever seen in a vote held by them is 1. Often times 0. This problem will not end until the CCP ends.

The problem was perfectly highlighted in the series "Chernobyl". It becomes more about saving face, not admitting to facts, not admitting to ownership, thus endangering many more people. Little to no reflection, constant changing of history, constant editing of what has just happened. Look at how they continually try to scrub Tiananmen Square from their history.

There has been reports of all sorts of words and Chinese characters being banned that the CCP don't like from the likes of Youtube comments, to Basketball jersies in the US. Everytime one of these were found the response was "Oh this was just a mistake, look it's fixed now".

Recently an Australian undergraduate, Drew Pavlou was suspended from his university; many fearing it had to do with his outspokenness against the CCP.

It's not just religion that they hate; it's any dissenter at all.

2u2me

2u2me wrote: »

Exactly this is the very problem with the CCP. They hate anything that could threaten their authority. The most dissenters I've ever seen in a vote held by them is 1. Often times 0. This problem will not end until the CCP ends.

The problem was perfectly highlighted in the series "Chernobyl". It becomes more about saving face, not admitting to facts, not admitting to ownership, thus endangering many more people. Little to no reflection, constant changing of history, constant editing of what has just happened.

It's not purely the CCP. It's a part of their cultural history going back thousands of years. These things are not going to be removed with the disappearance of the CCP. The Chinese crave authoritarian leadership, because their culture is based on the avoidance of taking responsibility. Nobody admits to making mistakes, and good ideas are always to be stolen from someone else. If you look at when the Imperial court encountered the European powers, the exact same things occurred. The avoidance of responsibility, the changing of what happened to save face, etc. because it's a core part of their culture.

I see it when I catch my students plagiarizing, or cheating in exams. They know that they've been caught, but they're only sorry that they were caught. I can explain why such behavior is wrong, but they don't fully comprehend why it is wrong to do... and given a little amount of time, they'll try to blame someone else for what happened. It is what it is.

Look at how they continually try to scrub Tiananmen Square from their history.

No. They scrub it from the view of foreigners. All Chinese people know about Tiananmen square, and what happened. The official version finds excuses, but everyone has heard something from friends or family. They're not trying to delete it from history, and the CCP has admitted some negligence for what happened (by using scapegoats within the party).. the focus is on removing it as ammo for foreigners to use against the CCP or Chinese people. It's considered an internal issue, and not something for foreigners to discuss. You get the same thing about Mao's Cultural revolution... Shame, guilt, anger but also a very strong belief that it's nothing for foreigners to talk about.

There has been reports of all sorts of words and Chinese characters being banned that the CCP don't like from the likes of Youtube comments, to Basketball jersies in the US. Everytime one of these were found the response was "Oh this was just a mistake, look it's fixed now".

Recently an Australian undergraduate, Drew Pavlou was suspended from his university; many fearing it had to do with his outspokenness against the CCP.

It's not just religion that they hate; it's any dissenter at all.

We're seeing changes to the English language with the censoring of many words for many reasons. This is another case of the hypocrisy of Western culture (in the eyes of many Chinese). We'll point out the censoring of Chinese people, and then, ignore how we do it to our language. As for dissenters... China is, and always has been (in modern times) a police state. It's never pretended otherwise. They call themselves a democracy but their own language describes the CCP as being guardians with ultimate power to protect and to dispense justice.

The CCP has always hated anyone who disagrees with the party line. The nationalists were the same. As was Imperial China before them. It's part of their traditional culture to treat dissent harshly. They have their own systems in place to allow criticism to occur, and it's never done in public.... those who voice their criticisms in public know that they're going against traditional culture, and they're setting themselves up to be martyrs.

I'm not excusing it, but there's little point applying western standards to a culture that has been following the same set of standards for thousands of years....

MrMusician18

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's not purely the CCP. It's a part of their cultural history going back thousands of years. These things are not going to be removed with the disappearance of the CCP. The Chinese crave authoritarian leadership, because their culture is based on the avoidance of taking responsibility. Nobody admits to making mistakes, and good ideas are always to be stolen from someone else. If you look at when the Imperial court encountered the European powers, the exact same things occurred. The avoidance of responsibility, the changing of what happened to save face, etc. because it's a core part of their culture.

I see it when I catch my students plagiarizing, or cheating in exams. They know that they've been caught, but they're only sorry that they were caught. I can explain why such behavior is wrong, but they don't fully comprehend why it is wrong to do... and given a little amount of time, they'll try to blame someone else for what happened. It is what it is.



No. They scrub it from the view of foreigners. All Chinese people know about Tiananmen square, and what happened. The official version finds excuses, but everyone has heard something from friends or family. They're not trying to delete it from history, and the CCP has admitted some negligence for what happened (by using scapegoats within the party).. the focus is on removing it as ammo for foreigners to use against the CCP or Chinese people. It's considered an internal issue, and not something for foreigners to discuss. You get the same thing about Mao's Cultural revolution... Shame, guilt, anger but also a very strong belief that it's nothing for foreigners to talk about.



We're seeing changes to the English language with the censoring of many words for many reasons. This is another one of the hypocrisy of Western culture. We'll point out the censoring of Chinese people, and then, ignore how we do it to our language. As for dissenters... China is, and always has been (in modern times) a police state. It's never pretended otherwise. They call themselves a democracy but their own language describes the CCP as being guardians with ultimate power to protect and to dispense justice.

The CCP has always hated anyone who disagrees with the party line. The nationalists were the same. As was Imperial China before them. It's part of their traditional culture to treat dissent harshly. They have their own systems in place to allow criticism to occur, and it's never done in public.... those who voice their criticisms in public know that they're going against traditional culture, and they're setting themselves up to be martyrs.

I'm not excusing it, but there's little point applying western standards to a culture that has been following the same set of standards for thousands of years....

That in bold makes absolutely no sense. No foreigner is looking to the CCP for information on Tiananmen Square, western media was present at the time and the story was well documented. The suppression of the story is entirely within China's borders with the idea that while it can live on in folk memory - if it's not documented critically for Chinese to read then it can be forgotten about and/or spun to suit the CCP narrative.

The great firewall of China is about managing the information the masses of the Chinese receive in order to prevent opposition forming. CCP know that opposition and dissent can crystalize around an event (death of George Floyd is a good example), so all information around events which could potentially threaten the party are controlled.

MrMusician18

MrMusician18 wrote: »

That in bold makes absolutely no sense. No foreigner is looking to the CCP for information on Tiananmen Square, western media was present at the time and the story was well documented. The suppression of the story is entirely within China's borders with the idea that while it can live on in folk memory - if it's not documented critically for Chinese to read then it can be forgotten about and/or spun to suit the CCP narrative.

Its the difference between the Chinese perception of what happened vs the Western version of events. And I have seen university papers/presentations written by Chinese professors talking about Tiananmen square, and the effects of what happened on Chinese society. It's hasn't been removed from their history. It's simply been discouraged as a common conversational topic. To add with dozens of other topics that Chinese people typically avoid discussing.

The great firewall of China is about managing the information the masses of the Chinese receive in order to prevent opposition forming. CCP know that opposition and dissent can crystalize around an event (death of George Floyd is a good example), so all information around events which could potentially threaten the party are controlled.

The great firewall of China is mostly a face-saving exercise. It's only really US based websites along with a few major sites that are blocked... or those who directly compete with Chinese business or Chinese Social media. I can view RTE in China... or most European news sites. All without a VPN. The vast majority of my students have a VPN though, and they're not special in being that way... VPNs are common throughout China... and even without a VPN (I didn't use one until my last two years there), you can find many workarounds. It's only during the security council periods, that they crack down hard... and again, there's many ways around it (although Youtube/Facebook are typically really difficult to get working)

2u2me

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not purely the CCP. It's a part of their cultural history going back thousands of years. These things are not going to be removed with the disappearance of the CCP. The Chinese crave authoritarian leadership, because their culture is based on the avoidance of taking responsibility. Nobody admits to making mistakes, and good ideas are always to be stolen from someone else. If you look at when the Imperial court encountered the European powers, the exact same things occurred. The avoidance of responsibility, the changing of what happened to save face, etc. because it's a core part of their culture.

But their culture went through a cultural revolution as you admit later in this post. Anyway I don't see how the CCP and Chinese culture at present are so interlinked, apart from the Uyghurs they've also crushed the Falun Gong movement. Surely Falun Gong was much closer related to their cultural past then the current incarnation of the CCP.

We're seeing changes to the English language with the censoring of many words for many reasons. This is another case of the hypocrisy of Western culture (in the eyes of many Chinese). We'll point out the censoring of Chinese people, and then, ignore how we do it to our language. As for dissenters... China is, and always has been (in modern times) a police state. It's never pretended otherwise. They call themselves a democracy but their own language describes the CCP as being guardians with ultimate power to protect and to dispense justice.

You're right, we've lost the moral highground by giving into the cancel culture, banning of words, taking of offence, hate-speech laws etc.. But it doesn't mean we shouldn't stop fighting. Where as we might apply these things at a cultural level the CCP enforce theirs with the full authority of government.

I'm not excusing it, but there's little point applying western standards to a culture that has been following the same set of standards for thousands of years....

Some standards aren't western standards. They're just human standards. Like the standard of not being harvested for your organs.

Yurt2

2u2me wrote: »

Some standards aren't western standards. They're just human standards. Like the standard of not being harvested for your organs.

There's a really tyranny of low expectations around the behavior of the CCP, and people shrug their shoulders as if mass-sterilization, arresting dissenting academics and journalists and gulags for Muslims are an essential part of Chinese culture since antiquity. And it's all shrouded in some pseudo-Orientalist nonsense about 'Asian values' and 'Western lenses.' I've posted before about Lee Kuan Yew of Singapore using this guff as a pretext to deflect criticism of his authoritarianism, and the CCP have very deliberately copied his playbook. Sadly, some foreigners parrot this nonsense. 你不了解中国 "You don't understand China"

Oh well, our western lenses couldn't possibly understand your ancient and oh so mysterious culture, so we'll just ignore the litany of human rights abuses. It would be a more credible arguement if the CCP didn't spend the best part of the last century attempting to erase what underpinned Chinese culture for millenia.

If all this illiberalism was such an essential part of Chinese culture, how can the Taiwanese sustain their democracy and why hasn't it all fallen apart with their free press and commitment to improving human rights standards?

Irish Praetorian

Yurt! wrote: »

There's a really tyranny of low expectations around the behavior of the CCP, and people shrug their shoulders as if mass-sterilization, arresting dissenting academics and journalists and gulags for Muslims are an essential part of Chinese culture since antiquity. And it's all shrouded in some pseudo-Orientalist nonsense about 'Asian values' and 'Western lenses.' I've posted before about Lee Kuan Yew of Singapore using this guff as a pretext to deflect criticism of his authoritarianism, and the CCP have very deliberately copied his playbook. Sadly, some foreigners parrot this nonsense. 你不了解中国 "You don't understand China"

Oh well, our western lenses couldn't possibly understand your ancient and oh so mysterious culture, so we'll just ignore the litany of human rights abuses. It would be a more credible arguement if the CCP didn't spend the best part of the last century attempting to erase what underpinned Chinese culture for millenia.

If all this illiberalism was such an essential part of Chinese culture, how can the Taiwanese sustain their democracy and why hasn't it all fallen apart with their free press and commitment to improving human rights standards?

Indeed, the famous soft bigotry of low expectations appear to be very much at play when it comes to China, but I've also found it applied to pretty much any non-Western state that engages in behaviour which would be sufficient to trigger riots and protests in a Western country. One would have thought, for example, that Russia invading Ukraine would have been a simple open and shut case of something we could all agree was wrong, but no, we had to see useful idiots obsequiously making representations on the part of 'Russian fear of invasion' and 'trauma over the fall of the USSR'. Its shameful to see the same lines trotted out by the same suspects when it comes to China.

2u2me

This video just released by the NYT a few minutes ago shows how the masks we are now wearing may have been produced in forced concentration camps by the Uyghars in China. "Which experts say often are put to work against their will"

2u2me

Pinned comment by one of the producers of this investigation/video.

Hi, I’m Haley, one of the producers on this investigation. Thanks for watching. Our team spent months trawling through Chinese state media, government documents, satellite images and shipping data to establish how Uighur labor is being used to produce P.P.E. and where that equipment is ending up. We started with a list of companies producing medical grade equipment, then went digging to see if any had connections to the labor transfer program. Shipments from some of the companies we identified led us around the world — from a medical supply distributor in Brazil to a Georgia-based company in the U.S. Leave a comment below if you have any questions about this investigation, and I’ll do my best to answer.

Danzy

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

and the authoritarian dystopian dictatorship it has become though.

Since 1949 it has been an authoritarian dystopian dictatorship.

It's not new, for the first 20 years, it was the most murderous regime in history. It's just returning to a more hardline position.

Danzy

sweet_trip wrote: »

The CCP is state capitalism fyi.
There's nothing communist about it other than the name.

It followed the same path every Communist revolution took.

The mindset of the faithful and coupled with an unworkable ideology will always lead to the same.

Ultimately it is the belief system that is the problem.

Danzy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

For the most part, yes, although on a local level, some provinces/districts still hold on to their communist past. It's rare though. There was a change in the 70s to put communism behind them, and embrace something different. State Capitalism with superficial overtones of communism.

The pre 70s, the lets give Communism a serious go era, saw the entire population in some years on rations equal to Belsen.

2u2me

2u2me wrote: »

But their culture went through a cultural revolution as you admit later in this post.

The cultural revolution wasn't any kind of development. It was a program by Mao to hunt down and destroy his paranoid fantasies about spies and disloyal elements within Chinese society. It severely damaged the community aspect of Chinese neighborhoods, with families turning on each other... It was an incredibly fcuked up movement.

Anyway I don't see how the CCP and Chinese culture at present are so interlinked, apart from the Uyghurs they've also crushed the Falun Gong movement. Surely Falun Gong was much closer related to their cultural past then the current incarnation of the CCP.

That's because you want to understand Chinese culture through the lens of western values. You're not trying to see them as being different. The CCP reflects the inner core principles within traditional Chinese culture... I mentioned them earlier.

You're right, we've lost the moral highground by giving into the cancel culture, banning of words, taking of offence, hate-speech laws etc.. But it doesn't mean we shouldn't stop fighting. Where as we might apply these things at a cultural level the CCP enforce theirs with the full authority of government.

We have governmental censorship too... it's already happening in the US.. it happened with their needs for national security, it happened with feminism, and now it's happening with race.

I'm not saying we shouldn't object to China's behavior. Never that. I merely pointed out what Chinese people often feel about the west...

Some standards aren't western standards. They're just human standards. Like the standard of not being harvested for your organs.

Which is a western standard applied internationally... Many countries engage in all manner of activities which aren't accepted under human rights, but human rights is a western concept... just as the UN was a western concept.

Yurt2

Deleted User wrote: »

That's because you want to understand Chinese culture through the lens of western values. You're not trying to see them as being different. The CCP reflects the inner core principles within traditional Chinese culture... I mentioned them earlier.

??? Ah here

Honestly klaz, you're doing the Marco Polo thing again. Interpreter of the inscrutable and unknowable Orient.

Sometimes an absolutist dictatorship is just an absolutist dictatorship, and not about the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Laozi, the Anelects or Pei Mei stroking his beard on a misty mountaintop.

4068ac1elhodqr

Is the recent spin from uk's Raab, and even Europe all just hype n' bluster?

Huawei has been embedded in their telecom systems already for a fair while, then there's the small, slow and expensive issue (in the uk) of building nuclear plants.

If they were really serious about blocking Chinese sensitive tech, they have to complile a very long list, and start with tetra radio systems, then facial recognition systems, and who knows what ever else.

Odhinn

Yurt! wrote: »

??? Ah here

Honestly klaz, you're doing the Marco Polo thing again. Interpreter of the inscrutable and unknowable Orient.

Sometimes an absolutist dictatorship is just an absolutist dictatorship, and not about the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Laozi, the Anelects or Pei Mei stroking his beard on a misty mountaintop.

A lot of it - AFAIK - goes back to the teachings of Confucius, with regard to the respect of elders, keeping society in harmony, not rocking the boat and so on.

Danzy

I agree with Klaz on human rights being actually Western rights.

What we view as universal human rights are largely a product of Europe.

As that fades so will those human rights and democracy.

I agree that China has largely been the same in mindset, whatever the system.

.
The question I feel is did that exacerbate the inevitable savagery that Communism or those striving for it always end up going to. It did but the practical nature of their society also ended it ina way that avoided conflict.

The zealotry of the righteous hunts out Internal heretics and sinners in Society when reality does not bend to expectation and analysis. That happens from micro groups like PbP all the way to the CPC.

Yurt2

Odhinn wrote: »

A lot of it - AFAIK - goes back to the teachings of Confucius, with regard to the respect of elders, keeping society in harmony, not rocking the boat and so on.

To be honest, that's like ascribing Greek political developments to Homer's Odyssey. The link between ancient China and what we see today is threadbare indeed.

Taiwan, South Korea and to a lesser extent Japan are all derived from the same cultural wellspring, and manage to hold together fairly liberal democracies.

Statues of Confucius were torn down all over the country during the cultural revolution (he's only very recently back in favour as some fuzzy national symbol), and the Chinese reformers of the late Qing in the 19th century pinned the rot in the nation on the 'olds' in Chinese society such as Confucianism and it went over the bow of the ship a while back.

Closer to the truth is that China is run by a paranoid clique still traumatized by the Cultural Revolution. Goodies and business opportunities are handed out by the party and the state run banks, and they'll do anything to keep the circus rolling.

Yurt2

Danzy wrote: »

I agree with Klaz on human rights being actually Western rights.

What we view as universal human rights are largely a product of Europe.

As that fades so will those human rights and democracy.

I agree that China has largely been the same in mindset, whatever the system.

Basically the following...


By Kim Dae Jung, now deceased President of South Korea, arguing that 'Asian values' are a fig-leaf for prickly authoritarians that don't like criticism. Illiberal leaders like Park Chung-hee and Lee Kuan Yew suddenly had a new found love for Confucius (neo-Confucianism) and repackaged surface level interpretations of 'the ancient' as an ethical justification for retaining power and acting like potenates.


https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/southeast-asia/1994-11-01/culture-destiny-myth-asias-anti-democratic-values

Yurt!

Yurt! wrote: »

There's a really tyranny of low expectations around the behavior of the CCP, and people shrug their shoulders as if mass-sterilization, arresting dissenting academics and journalists and gulags for Muslims are an essential part of Chinese culture since antiquity.

I don't agree. There is a expectation that China should be something more than it is. It is a totalitarian state that engages in horrible behavior. The point is that few countries cared enough to do anything about it, fearing the backlash in diplomatic, or economic terms.

And I don't think anyone is trying to pass off their extreme behavior as being part of ancient culture. At least I wasn't. I spoke about their culture for specific examples, and none included their human rights abuses.

And it's all shrouded in some pseudo-Orientalist nonsense about 'Asian values' and 'Western lenses.' I've posted before about Lee Kuan Yew of Singapore using this guff as a pretext to deflect criticism of his authoritarianism, and the CCP have very deliberately copied his playbook. Sadly, some foreigners parrot this nonsense. 你不了解中国 "You don't understand China"

That would be me then? Sure, I'll go with you don't want to attempt to understand China.

Oh well, our western lenses couldn't possibly understand your ancient and oh so mysterious culture, so we'll just ignore the litany of human rights abuses. It would be a more credible arguement if the CCP didn't spend the best part of the last century attempting to erase what underpinned Chinese culture for millenia.

True enough. Although you're lumping in every aspect of Chinese culture, history and behavior together and saying that Westerners understand it all completely.... Which I don't agree with.

Some aspects of Chinese culture and behavior is understandable and should be openly criticised... the detention camps, the ethnic cleansing, etc. All of which China should be taken to account for. However, there are aspects of Chinese culture which have little resemblance to Western culture, or experiences, and so, trying to understand it from a western perspective is flawed.

If all this illiberalism was such an essential part of Chinese culture, how can the Taiwanese sustain their democracy and why hasn't it all fallen apart with their free press and commitment to improving human rights standards?

Because Taiwan made a switch, for it's own survival. They were a hardline totalitarian state for a time, with clear divisions as to who had the power and those who didn't. They made the switch because they didn't want to be taken back into the fold by the CCP, and were willing to accept drastic changes to ensure their own survival. You're being awfully selective about Taiwans history and how their society evolved... It's a great country now, but it wasn't always that way.