'Concern' over distribution of LC Results

Treppen

I'm not really seeing the problem here. Students can access their results online!

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/other/schools-express-concerns-over-distribution-of-leaving-cert-results/ar-BB16KMnq?ocid=BingHPC

There seems to be some inference that it would be tricky having the LC teachers around at the same time as the results were given to students.

I know this gets debated every year about 'being there for your students', but I would have thought this year, more than any other, was the time for said teachers to be as far removed from pupils as possible.

Are they trying to say in a nice way to students to 'not come into the school'.

maynooth_rules

I always go to the school for students results. I'm one of only a handful of teachers that do it surprisingly. But as you said, this is certainly one year we shouldn't. It just doesn't sit right given the role we played on results this year. Another unfortunate happening from this bloody virus

TheDriver

Its difficult. I've experienced a number of occasions over the years whereby a student is disappointed and takes out the blame there and then on whoever they can see. And that's in a regular year with a standard examination process.

Treppen

Does the vow of silence continue on until the appeals process is over?

Postgrad10

I think the collecting results from school shouldn’t happen this year. The department should release them online and post them out. Taking away that role from schools this year. Schools can still provide support guidance re: options.

Treppen

Postgrad10 wrote: »

I think the collecting results from school shouldn’t happen this year. The department should release them online and post them out. Taking away that role from schools this year. Schools can still provide support guidance re: options.

What happens if a student asks a subject teacher for guidance on whether they should appeal or not!

RealJohn

I would usually go into the school if I had a leaving cert class, more to find out the results myself than to be there for the students, if I’m honest, but I’d usually be available for the students to talk to, if they need to. I definitely will not be in the school this year. 0% chance of it.

Rosita

I've gone in a couple of times over the years. Never quite understood the "supporting students" angle - when I was in that situation my teachers were the last people I wanted to meet. Also I'd have no way of knowing what time the students would be there anyway.

I'd have gone just to see results but this year what's the point either way. Just give them the results on-line.

mirrorwall14

I’d normally go in to see the results myself but I definitely won’t do that on the day this year tbh

Spanish Eyes

Would the schools be even open anyway?

Postgrad10

Treppen wrote: »

What happens if a student asks a subject teacher for guidance on whether they should appeal or not!

The warning from the department is still valid. They can’t ask for advice like that. They also need reminding that the overall calculated grade comes from the Department not the school.

Postgrad10

Rosita wrote: »

I've gone in a couple of times over the years. Never quite understood the "supporting students" angle - when I was in that situation my teachers were the last people I wanted to meet. Also I'd have no way of knowing what time the students would be there anyway.

I'd have gone just to see results but this year what's the point either way. Just give them the results on-line.

Oh I only meant pastoral , guidance related support. I want my classes to well but I’m never there results day any year.

mirrorwall14

Well we’ll all be in school now since they are delayed....

aratsarse101

They’ve only been delayed on legal advice. Avoids complications re duty of care. Advice was not to release during 2019/2020 school year.

deiseindublin

aratsarse101 wrote: »

They’ve only been delayed on legal advice. Avoids complications re duty of care. Advice was not to release during 2019/2020 school year.

I'm being stupid obviously but what difference does it make to duty of care? In my experience, teachers don't turn their backs on students that need help with appeals or checking a paper, whichever school year it falls in.

And anyway, early/mid August would never have counted as being part of the academic year.

RealJohn

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Well we’ll all be in school now since they are delayed....

I’m wondering if we will, now. Surely, it doesn’t make sense to have schools open, going about their normal business, and the previous year’s leaving certs hanging around, looking for explanations of what happened to their grades, and possibly not doing so in a calm and polite manner?

rainbowtrout

Treppen wrote: »

What happens if a student asks a subject teacher for guidance on whether they should appeal or not!

Well before it would have been due to something concrete on their exam paper. The only thing they can appeal now is the calculated grade process, which is an administrative check. So unless the exam secretary entered marks incorrectly or didn't enter a mark at all, there isn't going to be a whole lot to appeal.

Having said that, it won't stop students appealing out of desperation. Many students seem to be under the impression that if they appeal they will more than likely be upgraded. I've gone and viewed scripts with students many times over the years and there's always one who is 4-5% off the next grade up, and I might find something small on the paper which is only worth 0.5-1%, and I tell them that it's not mathematically possible for them to improve and they still send it back.

See also 'They can't leave me on 89.5% brigade'. Why, yes, yes they can.

I'm sure this year it will be no different.

rainbowtrout

RealJohn wrote: »

I’m wondering if we will, now. Surely, it doesn’t make sense to have schools open, going about their normal business, and the previous year’s leaving certs hanging around, looking for explanations of what happened to their grades, and possibly not doing so in a calm and polite manner?

Dept might release the grades early morning like happens with the CAO results. Most will login to get them and there would be far fewer going into school.

RealJohn

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Dept might release the grades early morning like happens with the CAO results. Most will login to get them and there would be far fewer going into school.

That won’t stop the ones looking for an explanation though.

Treppen

RealJohn wrote: »

That won’t stop the ones looking for an explanation though.

You, as a teacher, find out a student was bumped 2 grade points, say from H2 to H4. (Apart from the fact the 'it could never happen' in the first place). Student might think it was down to you cos you hated them or whatever, so the student isn't thinking of appealing.

Would you do anything?

RealJohn

Treppen wrote: »

You, as a teacher, find out a student was bumped 2 grade points, say from H2 to H4. (Apart from the fact the 'it could never happen' in the first place). Student might think it was down to you cos you hated them or whatever, so the student isn't thinking of appealing.

Would you do anything?

What can you do? “Sorry you’re disappointed, kiddo, but I can’t talk about the mark I gave you. All I can tell you is that I submitted a mark for you, and the SEC ran it through some process that hasn’t been revealed to us, and that result is what came out. It’s like a function in maths, only one where the function itself is a mystery, and I’m not allowed to tell you what the input was either.”
Get one last maths lesson in.

rainbowtrout

RealJohn wrote: »

That won’t stop the ones looking for an explanation though.

No that's true, but anyone who clears the normal range of points for their chosen course probably won't come near the school. Very hard to know how it will pan out.

rainbowtrout

Treppen wrote: »

You, as a teacher, find out a student was bumped 2 grade points, say from H2 to H4. (Apart from the fact the 'it could never happen' in the first place). Student might think it was down to you cos you hated them or whatever, so the student isn't thinking of appealing.

Would you do anything?

But aren't they entitled to know what was submitted for them by the school if they appeal?

Taking your example, you give your student an 85. DES pulls it down to 65 and the above happens as you describe. Not much can be done about that. But what if there is an administrative error and whoever input the grades in your school input 65 by accident. You in good faith gave 85, and in this instance DES didn't change it because they don't know the 85 ever existed.

Presumably that is what the appeals process is actually for, to check for admin errors.

mtoutlemonde

rainbowtrout wrote: »

But aren't they entitled to know what was submitted for them by the school if they appeal?

Taking your example, you give your student an 85. DES pulls it down to 65 and the above happens as you describe. Not much can be done about that. But what if there is an administrative error and whoever input the grades in your school input 65 by accident. You in good faith gave 85, and in this instance DES didn't change it because they don't know the 85 ever existed.

Presumably that is what the appeals process is actually for, to check for admin errors.

I asked principal your first question and the answer is yes. A student can put in a freedom of information request one month after the appeals process and all information including the grade you gave them is returned.

r93kaey5p2izun

Yes students can put in data access request and will receive Form A and redacted Form B which will show their rank in the class but everyone else blacked out.

But what is the advice for teachers when they are directly asked by a student what percentage they submitted, once results are released? Are they to say "sorry, I can't discuss it, submit a request for your data"? Or should they discuss it at that point and tell the student? What is to be considered best practice?

daheff

I think this year more than ever teachers should be up front & centre for their students. The teachers have given the results so should be open & honest enough to talk with, and justify the marks given.

Anything else would be a cowardly display by the teachers.

r93kaey5p2izun

daheff wrote: »

I think this year more than ever teachers should be up front & centre for their students. The teachers have given the results so should be open & honest enough to talk with, and justify the marks given.

Anything else would be a cowardly display by the teachers.

It's not so simple as throwing around poorly informed insults. As it stands, teachers are forbidden from discussing it. There's currently no indication that will be changed. If it is they will likely have to follow school policy on it, if guidance from higher up is not issued.

And teachers have given a percentage mark. The result issued is not within their control. They have not given the results.

Treppen

Does this sit well with anyone, Norma Foley's announcement today?

"Over 450,000 individual grades have to be prepared and checked and the outcomes need to be reviewed using different demographic characteristics which will include gender and socio-economic status to ensure that the grades are as fair and equitable as possible."

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/7777b-minister-foley-announces-next-steps-for-this-years-leaving-certificate-students/

So not only will a schools' previous grades from previous students be influencing a particular student's final grade, but also gender and socio-economic status.

Is this turning into a political agenda tool?

rainbowtrout

Treppen wrote: »

Does this sit well with anyone, Norma Foley's announcement today?



So not only will a schools' previous grades from previous students be influencing a particular student's final grade, but also gender and socio-economic status.

Is this turning into a political agenda tool?

The stats for grades are broken down by gender and county every year on sec website. I presume this year will be no different and DES will run a check to see how they compare with previous year

Treppen

rainbowtrout wrote: »

The stats for grades are broken down by gender and county every year on sec website. I presume this year will be no different and DES will run a check to see how they compare with previous year

It's a very different thing to

1. Analyse completed grades after the process is over and release a breakdown according to gender and S-E status.

&

2. Alter grades according to gender and socio economic status before a final grade is awarded.

What I'm saying is that you can't reverse engineer a gender or S-E status into a grade. Yes, you can attempt to match it with previous school/subject results but gender etc. were never part of the deal, maybe they should look at race, religion, disability..etc. and factor them in too!

daheff

Ellis Curved Driver wrote: »

It's not so simple as throwing around poorly informed insults. As it stands, teachers are forbidden from discussing it. There's currently no indication that will be changed. If it is they will likely have to follow school policy on it, if guidance from higher up is not issued.

And teachers have given a percentage mark. The result issued is not within their control. They have not given the results.

So no reason for teachers not to turn up at the schools then??

r93kaey5p2izun

daheff wrote: »

So no reason for teachers not to turn up at the schools then??

Teachers will be there because school will be back anyway?

But if it wasn't, why would they turn up to say "make a data access request" to their students looking for answers?

I don't get your point tbh in the context of current information.

daheff

Ellis Curved Driver wrote: »

Teachers will be there because school will be back anyway?

But if it wasn't, why would they turn up to say "make a data access request" to their students looking for answers?

I don't get your point tbh in the context of current information.

My point is in relation to a number of posts on this thread about teachers not being available to students on results day.

Newbie20

Ellis Curved Driver wrote: »

Teachers will be there because school will be back anyway?

But if it wasn't, why would they turn up to say "make a data access request" to their students looking for answers?

I don't get your point tbh in the context of current information.

He doesn’t have a point besides trying to have a dig. Best ignored.

r93kaey5p2izun

daheff wrote: »

My point is in relation to a number of posts on this thread about teachers not being available to students on results day.

That was before current information. And what good would being there do if they couldn't answer their students? It could just create further stress for upset students. Lots of teachers aren't there usually anyway. Most students don't want their teachers. The school always has a specific team ready to support those in need - counsellors, year head etc.

I think you were just here to label teachers cowards without being in possession of all the relevant facts, tbh.

rainbowtrout

Treppen wrote: »

It's a very different thing to

1. Analyse completed grades after the process is over and release a breakdown according to gender and S-E status.

&

2. Alter grades according to gender and socio economic status before a final grade is awarded.

What I'm saying is that you can't reverse engineer a gender or S-E status into a grade. Yes, you can attempt to match it with previous school/subject results but gender etc. were never part of the deal, maybe they should look at race, religion, disability..etc. and factor them in too!

Oh I agree and the way that information is dripping out about the LC leaves a lot to be desired. My guess is that while a teacher might provide a set of grades with a reasonable spread, they want to have a look to see where they match up with the overall picture nationwide when they are all out together possibly to prevent unconscious bias towards either gender.

Eg if it is the case that typically 10% of girls get a H1 in HL maths and when they run the numbers they find the overall national curve fits but when they break it down they find that only 3% of girls were awarded a H1 this year then that might suggest a bias and that teachers were more likely to award higher grades to boys. Obviously the reverse could happen too.

Would presume the socio economic thing would be similar.

Treppen

daheff wrote: »

My point is in relation to a number of posts on this thread about teachers not being available to students on results day.

So do you think teachers should discuss grades with students before an appeal process?

Treppen

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Oh I agree and the way that information is dripping out about the LC leaves a lot to be desired. My guess is that while a teacher might provide a set of grades with a reasonable spread, they want to have a look to see where they match up with the overall picture nationwide when they are all out together possibly to prevent unconscious bias towards either gender.

Eg if it is the case that typically 10% of girls get a H1 in HL maths and when they run the numbers they find the overall national curve fits but when they break it down they find that only 3% of girls were awarded a H1 this year then that might suggest a bias and that teachers were more likely to award higher grades to boys. Obviously the reverse could happen too.

Would presume the socio economic thing would be similar.

Going by what Norma said then do you think they propose to bump up 7% of H2 Girls to bring them in line with the H1 stats. Then maybe have to move them again based on Socio Economic Status of the girls?

From my understanding everything was written into the previous school's past performance ( and you can include the 9 grounds + whatever else in that). So it would be past grade performance only was the influencing factor for the dept. to adjust the grade. It seems a dangerous step to be pushing these grades around for more than 1 variable. Horse by committee and all that.

rainbowtrout

Treppen wrote: »

Going by what Norma said then do you think they propose to bump up 7% of H2 Girls to bring them in line with the H1 stats. Then maybe have to move them again based on Socio Economic Status of the girls?

From my understanding everything was written into the previous school's past performance ( and you can include the 9 grounds + whatever else in that). So it would be past grade performance only was the influencing factor for the dept. to adjust the grade. It seems a dangerous step to be pushing these grades around for more than 1 variable. Horse by committee and all that.

I have no idea how they are going to do it to be honest. My best guess is that if results this year are generally in line with previous years for each school then the other factors such as gender and socio-economic status should fall into place. I presume this is more of a cross check to make sure nothing is out of kilter, because the media will be all over it like a rash if it's discovered that the most affluent parts of the country got more H1s than usual and girls grades in HL maths are down or whatever.

It wouldn't take much to cause a shift in the curve nationally. E.g. say all the schools in the D4 area submitted grades with one more H1 in each class than the norm, and because it didn't push the grade curve for that school way out then those grades slipped through, but the overall picture for that catchment is that results are way up on normal.

Or if in mixed schools across the country HL Maths teachers typically got 3 H1s every year, and they all still submitted 3 H1s, only that they all gave them to two boys and one girl, so that bore out in the gender split for that grade, but it was found that nationally typically it was usually half and half, then it would indicate that there was some gender bias at play in awarding grades for such a radical departure from the norm, which won't be necessarily picked up just going on the schools overall results year on year.

That's what I imagine it is trying to prevent happening. It's still going to be a mess and the DES don't do themselves any favours drip feeding this information to people through the media without any background context.

Turbohymac

Unfortunately every year with a long time back LC grades are being rounded up to actually increase the students results..this year there was no pleasing the students whether they sat their exams or were marked on their past academic performance...
This year unfortunately there will be many students getting way more points than they would have got if they had to sit the exams.. this will result in many students getting onto college courses that they normally wouldn't have got..
This can't be good

rainbowtrout

Turbohymac wrote: »

Unfortunately every year with a long time back LC grades are being rounded up to actually increase the students results..this year there was no pleasing the students whether they sat their exams or were marked on their past academic performance...
This year unfortunately there will be many students getting way more points than they would have got if they had to sit the exams.. this will result in many students getting onto college courses that they normally wouldn't have got..
This can't be good

No it won't. If points increase because students are given higher grades, then points for courses will also increase. Colleges don't set the points for a course. Points are determined by the lowest scoring applicant who got the last place in the course. If there are 30 places on a course, the 30 applicants with the highest points get offered the places, if the person who is no. 30 on the list scores 500 then the points for the course are 500. If 29 of the people on the course scored 500 or above and person 30 scores 325, then the points for the course are 325.

And LC grades are not being rounded up, they are generally similar each year.

Turbohymac

Rainbowtrout..sorry but I know for definate that results are being rounded upwards..all depending on how the corrections are tallying up..
And yet regardless of this certain students still feel hard done..
Sorry but facts are true

Treppen

Turbohymac wrote: »

Rainbowtrout..sorry but I know for definate that results are being rounded upwards..all depending on how the corrections are tallying up..
And yet regardless of this certain students still feel hard done..
Sorry but facts are true

Who's rounding them up? Teachers or department?

mirrorwall14

Did they accidentally delete the original permissions? Why are students being asked to opt in again? Didn’t they already do that?

rainbowtrout

Turbohymac wrote: »

Rainbowtrout..sorry but I know for definate that results are being rounded upwards..all depending on how the corrections are tallying up..
And yet regardless of this certain students still feel hard done..
Sorry but facts are true

Would you like to provide a source for that ‘fact’?

DublinDilbert

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Did they accidentally delete the original permissions? Why are students being asked to opt in again? Didn’t they already do that?

Yes that is a strange one and something that people haven't really questioned. Possible change in T&Cs?

RealJohn

Turbohymac wrote: »

Rainbowtrout..sorry but I know for definate that results are being rounded upwards..all depending on how the corrections are tallying up..

Could you explain this please? Preferably in detail, because you’re not being very clear.

Turbohymac

Hi rainbowtrout..yes correcting officials from the department regularly contact the teachers that are marking the various exam bundles and advise to increase upwards..I've never heard a request to mark down any papers..this is going on with years as I have knowledge of this going on since 2012/13 ..this to me seems a farce and clearly makes the whole department and teachers look as if there doing a much better job than is actually the case.. without the department marking upwards certain lower scoring individuals there would clearly be an awful lot more young people either clearly failing to obtain enough points for chosen college courses or having to repeat the lc and cluttering the secondary school system..
This is absolutely accurate rainbowtrout. And I ain't picking a fight with anyone I'm just clearly stating facts ..I'm not apologizing to anyone for speaking the truth ..even if its something that certainly the department of education or teachers may not like..
AND its absolutely not the correcting teachers fault.. BUT clearly if the points/results weren't increased at the lower end there would clearly be a lot of poor results and then many parents would be angry with the teachers..who clearly shouldn't be held accountable for every single student that fails to achieve.. sometimes these students just don't care or put any effort into learning ..but yet every parent expects their child to do well..
My point for the very last time.. all exams should be scored to reflect the individual students merits..this ain't happening.. if there was a cycle race and I was 10 seconds behind the winner .would it be ok to reduce my time by those 10 seconds and bring me up level with what should have clearly been the race winner..
No moaning or cover ups just clear facts.. is it much benefit upgrading results to get them over the line? (college) and of course once these students get to college or should be called partyland for lots. them then its just 3 or 4 years more and then more moaning when they clearly don't perform..
Bottom line LC results should be accurate.. but there not...

shesty

Turbohymac wrote: »

Unfortunately every year with a long time back LC grades are being rounded up to actually increase the students results..this year there was no pleasing the students whether they sat their exams or were marked on their past academic performance...
This year unfortunately there will be many students getting way more points than they would have got if they had to sit the exams.. this will result in many students getting onto college courses that they normally wouldn't have got..
This can't be good

It will just increase drop out rates in college courses.It happened in UCD the years I was there, Science had quite low points due to lack of interest, resulting in more students getting in who weren't really able for the course content (obviously they met the other criteria for it).The drop out rate was relatively high for it at the time for a couple of years.But it's swings and roundabouts, a few years later and STEM came back into fashion and points pushed up a bit again.

At some point students have to take responsibility for themselves I guess.

Treppen

Turbohymac wrote: »

Hi rainbowtrout..yes correcting officials from the department regularly contact the teachers that are marking the various exam bundles and advise to increase upwards....

Your talking to quite a few people who have marked on here (and know advising examiners) and I can assure you they wouldn't hold back in mentioning it if it happened.

Btw the department NEVER contact individual markers, the only contact individual markers get is from advising examiners, who are only contacted by chief examiner above them.... All employed by SEC which are seperate from the Department of Education.

What subject are you referring to btw?

And it's not called correcting btw it's marking.

rainbowtrout

Turbohymac wrote: »

Hi rainbowtrout..yes correcting officials from the department regularly contact the teachers that are marking the various exam bundles and advise to increase upwards..I've never heard a request to mark down any papers..this is going on with years as I have knowledge of this going on since 2012/13 ..this to me seems a farce and clearly makes the whole department and teachers look as if there doing a much better job than is actually the case.. without the department marking upwards certain lower scoring individuals there would clearly be an awful lot more young people either clearly failing to obtain enough points for chosen college courses or having to repeat the lc and cluttering the secondary school system..
This is absolutely accurate rainbowtrout. And I ain't picking a fight with anyone I'm just clearly stating facts ..I'm not apologizing to anyone for speaking the truth ..even if its something that certainly the department of education or teachers may not like..
AND its absolutely not the correcting teachers fault.. BUT clearly if the points/results weren't increased at the lower end there would clearly be a lot of poor results and then many parents would be angry with the teachers..who clearly shouldn't be held accountable for every single student that fails to achieve.. sometimes these students just don't care or put any effort into learning ..but yet every parent expects their child to do well..
My point for the very last time.. all exams should be scored to reflect the individual students merits..this ain't happening.. if there was a cycle race and I was 10 seconds behind the winner .would it be ok to reduce my time by those 10 seconds and bring me up level with what should have clearly been the race winner..
No moaning or cover ups just clear facts.. is it much benefit upgrading results to get them over the line? (college) and of course once these students get to college or should be called partyland for lots. them then its just 3 or 4 years more and then more moaning when they clearly don't perform..
Bottom line LC results should be accurate.. but there not...

Ah, someone doesn't understand how the curve works.

You need to educate yourself on how the bell curve works, and consider the fact that marks are adjusted because the relative difficulty of papers from year to year can be different.

Your analogy of the cycle race is incredibly poor and uninformed and doesn't actually explain what is happening in the marking of the Leaving Cert at all.

You presenting something you know nothing about as facts when you clearly have no understanding of basic statistical concepts is laughable.


But I'm sure you can comfort yourself at night because you have 'the facts' and you know it is going on, by the way the DES have nothing to do with the state exams....





As someone who has marked exams for 19 years,... I await further instructions from my overlords/department officials :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: