Cowengate: The Barry Cowen drink driving affair

L1011

Cowen sacked.

Quickest reshuffle ever?

Sam Russell

L1011 wrote: »

Cowen sacked.

Quickest reshuffle ever?

He should have been sacked by MM for not disclosing his murky past when it first came to light.

MM - 'Before I make you a minister, is there anything you should tell me?'

BC - 'No boss!'

MM - 'OK, then'.

devnull

Fianna Fail certainly haven't changed from the bad days during the last time they were in power.

They have only been in five minutes and they've already been throwing their toys out the pram at not getting certain positions in the government and now we see the first one of them sacked for their conduct.

Those who voted for them in the last election have a lot to answer for, although judging by the polls most of such voters appeared to see the error of their ways even before they came to power.

It's good that MM has sacked him, he had to go, but at the end of the day, the kind of FF antics we've seen ever since the government was formed was exactly the reasons I didn't want them back in power.

From what MM has said, Cowen wasn't prepared to go to the Dail and make a further statement on the matter or answer questions on it, which made the situation untenable as it then meant that it would then be left to the Government to do so.

This is my biggest problem with FF, so often the order of interests is self, followed by party followed by country when it should be the opposite way around. We've seen with O'Dea and Calleary the same self importance.

elperello

Sam Russell wrote: »

He should have been sacked by MM for not disclosing his murky past when it first came to light.

MM - 'Before I make you a minister, is there anything you should tell me?'

BC - 'No boss!'

MM - 'OK, then'.

About time they started doing due diligence before appointing Ministers. A simple questionnaire asking for relevant details from their past would eliminate this kind of thing.

devnull

Cowen is now tweeting away and having a rant in the same way as O'Dea and Calleary
https://twitter.com/CowenBarry/

The Taoiseach informed me this evening by phone that he was removing me from office as Minister for Agriculture. I am both surprised and disappointed with this decision.

Previously I furnished the Taoiseach with all the facts about my drink driving conviction and the story that the Sunday Times proposed to publish about my alleged evasion of a Garda check point. In doing so I provided him with confidential details about my interaction with.An Garda Siochana.

I have made my position on these matters known publicly and I have acknowledged my wrong doing for something that occurred 4 years ago.

I have sought an explanation - not as a government minister but as a citizen - as to how details relating to the incident were leaked to the media. The authorities have agreed to investigate the matter. One point warrants emphasis: at no time did I attempt to evade the Gardaí. Had I done so, the charges brought against me would, quite correctly, have been of a different tenor to those with which I was charged.

I am responsible for the offence with which I was convicted 4 years ago not for an inaccurate Garda entry on Pulse about that event. Ten days ago and this afternoon the Taoiseach believed my failure of 2016 didn’t warrant my removal from office but he now appears to have changed his mind based on a Pulse report I gave him this morning.

It is important to re-emphasise that report was leaked in contravention of the protections that I and every other citizen is entitled to expect in respect of their interaction with the Gardai.

Unfortunately the decision of the Taoiseach to remove me from office, when he supported me this afternoon in the Dail, has undermined and potentially prejudiced my entitlement to fair process.

We're seeing a very obvious pattern with Fianna Fail since they have been back in office. Every time one of the people who has been in that party for a while gets upset they lash out and throw their toys out of the pram because of their massive sense of self entitlement. The idea that the party has changed is laughable.

These people do not care about our country, they only care about themselves and never take any responsibility for their actions.

blackwhite

L1011 wrote: »

I'm not sure McDaid ever got his seal to count as a Minister (that time around); but it would be the quickest reshuffle yes. Forgot about that considering he had other scandals later on!

I think the bould Barry will take the record for actual time in office alright.


McDaid was caught out by newspaper photos of him going to bat for an IRA man published the same morning as Haughey was announcing his cabinet.


Haughey made the annoucements, and after that the PDs told Charlie they pull it all down if McDaid was to actually take up office.

Jim and Barry seem to have a few things in common 😳😳

Shelga

Reading about Barry Cowen this morning makes me wonder what planet these guys are on. The level of self-importance and entitlement they have is immense. Started reading his long Twitter thread explanation and got bored.

Why does this man think I give a crap about his right to be a minister? I'm in my early 30s and really starting to worry about the future. How will I ever buy a place on my own? What on earth is going to happen to the economy because of this pandemic? How can we avoid a second wave?

Once you become the story for more than a couple of days, it's time to go. I also wondered why your man Dara Calleary dominated the headlines in the first couple of days after government formation. I had actually never heard of him, and I pay attention to politics. Again, I could not care less that he is not a minister.

My friends of my age group would be of the same opinion. Why are certain individuals becoming the story, when we have so, SO much more to worry about? It's laughable, and shows how out of touch FF are with anyone under 45.

Chips Lovell

Mod Note

Created new thread on this topic and split some posts out into it.

seamus

devnull wrote: »

Fianna Fail certainly haven't changed from the bad days during the last time they were in power.

They have only been in five minutes and they've already been throwing their toys out the pram at not getting certain positions in the government and now we see the first one of them sacked for their conduct.

It certainly sounds like Michael Martin has decided that the party has changed, but the party members don't seem to have gotten the memo.

A government minister being sacked for this kind of behaviour is exactly what should be expected of any party in power. It seems though there are still plenty of old guard in FF who would rather Martin went the traditional way and just refused to say anything about this until it went away.

Sam Russell

Barry Cowen should have resigned when this first came to light. He knew the full story, and knew about the provisional licence. And how did he get about as a councillor and TD - going to all those funerals? His expenses claims - were they legit if he could not drive? Lots of questions.

The journos that break these kind of stories usually have two barrels. Let loose the first and see what happens. If it goes the way this did, then loose the second one - below the water mark, and then see what happens. Something usually does.

ThewhiteJesus

Sam Russell wrote: »

Barry Cowen should have resigned when this first came to light. He knew the full story, and knew about the provisional licence. And how did he get about as a councillor and TD - going to all those funerals? His expenses claims - were they legit if he could not drive? Lots of questions.

The journos that break these kind of stories usually have two barrels. Let loose the first and see what happens. If it goes the way this did, then loose the second one - below the water mark, and then see what happens. Something usually does.

How many people in Ireland are driving on provisional licences ?
It's in the thousands i would imagine.
I'm not saying it's right, but the Guards and insurance companies turn a blind eye so it's accepted practice.
You can get insurance with one !
This faux outrage is pathetic, i'm no ff man either but all this does is make MM look like the lame duck that is.

gifted

I'd say what pissed MM off was the fact that Cowen left him and the other FF cronies to take the flak in the Dail from Sinn Fein and others while he refused to go into the Dail......"feck ye lads, I'm alright "
He got caught out. Good riddance to a bad family legacy.

Sam Russell

ThewhiteJesus wrote: »

How many people in Ireland are driving on provisional licences ?
It's in the thousands i would imagine.
I'm not saying it's right, but the Guards and insurance companies turn a blind eye so it's accepted practice.
You can get insurance with one !
This faux outrage is pathetic, i'm no ff man either but all this does is make MM look like the lame duck that is.

I suppose that drink driving falls into the same category as plenty are known to do it, but it is only when caught out, that the faux outrage begins.

If drink driving was taken seriously by TDs, they would close the bar in Leinster House, or at least charge 5 star prices. They don't take it seriously, so they don't close the bar.

Tzardine

Cowengate - shame he was not the minister for Children.

coylemj

Cowen texted this message to FF members in Offaly earlier today. Pasting it here exactly as it was posted (in three tweets) by @EimhinBoland with link to tweet below.

“FF is bigger than me. It’s definitely bigger than M Martin. I have apologised for my actions. I made a stupid mistake but I did not do what they have accused me of.” (1/3)

“Firstly, I do think I have a right to find out how my records were released and secondly the options I have then to engage in a process to discuss such records with authorities (DPC).” (2/3)

“We’ll then regroup, deal with issues in our constituency and give leadership and representation to communities. That’s what we do best. These few weeks and yesterday have been difficult but I hope we can find a pathway forward together.” (3/3)

https://twitter.com/EimhinBoland/status/1283369235645947913?s=20

That whatsapp message was written to be published online.

Highly contrived "leak".... it's just a way of saying that Fanna Fail is bigger than Micheal Martin in a way that is impossible for him to say directly, in public.

coylemj

blackwhite wrote: »

McDaid was caught out by newspaper photos of him going to bat for an IRA man published the same morning as Haughey was announcing his cabinet.

Haughey made the annoucements, and after that the PDs told Charlie they pull it all down if McDaid was to actually take up office.

Lots of media are claiming that McDaid was 'appointed' minister for Defence by CJH in 1991 when the correct term would have been 'nominated'. In the same way that the Dail can nominate someone for Taoiseach but the person is actually appointed by the President.

For the benefit of all political anoraks, can I ask you to dispense with the term 'take up office' and clarify the events of 1991 in the context of the legal and constitutional status of the office he was proposed for.

Was McDaid ever appointed by the President and handed the seal of office as Minister for Defence i.e. was he the minister even for 5 minutes? I know he got a different cabinet post at a later date, my query relates solely to the events of 1991.

Spanish Eyes

The knives are out, and the bang of arrogance in that tweet/ WhatsApp above is something only FF can do with one hand tied behind their backs.

We could be in for a bumpy ride. They haven’t gone away nor have they changed their spots one bit either. Didn’t take long.

coylemj

coylemj wrote: »

Lots of media are claiming that McDaid was 'appointed' minister for Defence by CJH in 1991 when the correct term would have been 'nominated'. In the same way that the Dail can nominate someone for Taoiseach but the person is actually appointed by the President.

For the benefit of all political anoraks, can I ask you to dispense with the term 'take up office' and clarify the events of 1991 in the context of the legal and constitutional status of the office he was proposed for.

Was McDaid ever appointed by the President and handed the seal of office as Minister for Defence i.e. was he the minister even for 5 minutes? I know he got a different cabinet post at a later date, my query relates solely to the events of 1991.

McDaid was nominated but was not appointed.

The Dail Record Thur. 14. Nov. 1991

The Taoiseach:

I move:

That Dáil Éireann approves the nomination by the Taoiseach of Deputies Vincent Brady and Noel Davern for appointment by the President to be members of the Government.

Subject to the motion being approved, I would propose to assign the Department of Defence to Deputy Vincent Brady. The other proposed arrangements about the assignment of Departments to members of the Government and about the removal and appointment of Ministers of State which I mentioned in my speech yesterday will remain in place.

Deputy Jim McDaid indicated to the House yesterday evening that he had asked me to withdraw his name for nomination as Minister for Defence. He gave a totally convincing rebuttal of the false and deplorable accusations from the Opposition benches that he was opposed to extradition, that he was a Provisional IRA sympathiser and similar unfounded charges. He went on to inform the House that, lest there be the slightest suspicion of any kind attaching to the Minister for Defence, and in the broader national interest, he had asked me to withdraw his name.

blackwhite

coylemj wrote: »

Lots of media are claiming that McDaid was 'appointed' minister for Defence by CJH in 1991 when the correct term would have been 'nominated'. In the same way that the Dail can nominate someone for Taoiseach but the person is actually appointed by the President.

For the benefit of all political anoraks, can I ask you to dispense with the term 'take up office' and clarify the events of 1991 in the context of the legal and constitutional status of the office he was proposed for.

Was McDaid ever appointed by the President and handed the seal of office as Minister for Defence i.e. was he the minister even for 5 minutes? I know he got a different cabinet post at a later date, my query relates solely to the events of 1991.

"Take up office" should be taken to mean the same thing as Appointed by the President. As far as I'm aware - McDaid didn't make it as far as the Áras in 91.

Its just the latest in a long line of FF politicians not believing the rules apply to them. Surprised Martin sacked him though

Sam Russell

Cowen knew there was more to this than DD ban. The L licence, still driving around at 49 yrs of age and a Dail TD and previously a County Councillor with all those funerals to attend. He clearly did not flaunt L plates and a qualified driver because it would be known.

He should have resigned as soon as the story broke. That way, he could return when the storm was forgotten.

HildaOgdenx

'FF is bigger than me. It’s definitely bigger than M Martin'

The 'definitely' bit reads as complete arrogance, to me.

Not to go kicking a man when he's down, because he actually seems like a very decent guy and this is a massive blow to his career ... but, maybe an interesting prologue here.

The first time that Barry Cowen came to national prominence outside of Fianna Fail would have been around the turn of the millenium, I'm guessing around 2002.

I only know this because I was at that time in Ogra FF, not a million miles away from him, and then-Cllr Barry Cowen featured in a Prime Time Investigates programme, where his role in neglecting traveller housing was being investigated. I am pretty sure there was a recording he wasn't aware of, but there was certainly use of the 'K' word. It was a fairly memorable programme, didn't paint him in a great light.

Does anyone else recall this?

Not the ideal bookends to a career in politics, if this is the end of his time on the senior panel.

Caquas

blackwhite wrote: »

"Take up office" should be taken to mean the same thing as Appointed by the President. As far as I'm aware - McDaid didn't make it as far as the Áras in 91.

“take up office” has no Constitutional meaning.

Government Ministers are appointed by the President on the nomination of the Taoiseach. The problem for Jim McDaid was that the Dail must approve the Taoiseach’s nominee before the President makes the appointment. He fell at that hurdle because Haughey was on his last legs after dismissing Albert Reynolds. Fianna Fáil were in coalition with the PDs and Dessie O’Malley got cold feet when FG kicked up a fuss about James Pius Clarke so McDaid was dropped.

How many Ministers have been appointed or re-appointed in 100 years of independence? I would guess around 800 but Jim McDaid was the only one who failed to win the approval of Dáil Éireann. He was subsequently appointed Minister for Tourism & Sport in 1997 so no one has consistently failed to win the approval of Dáil Éireann. A low bar indeed!

Hermy

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

...he actually seems like a very decent guy...

What gives you that impression?

I don't know the man personally but the only impression I've ever had of him is one of complete arrogance.

theoneeyedman

L1011 wrote: »

Cowen sacked.

Quickest reshuffle ever?

OP, congrats, you are actually the first person I've heard referring to this sh1t show as Cowangate.... Brilliant!

Sam Russell

theoneeyedman wrote: »

OP, congrats, you are actually the first person I've heard referring to this sh1t show as Cowangate.... Brilliant!

Pat Rabbit used the term when describing a sordid incident involving his brother.

Hermy

Hermy wrote: »

What gives you that impression?

I don't know the man personally but the only impression I've ever had of him is one of complete arrogance.

Just a hunch. Most people are decent.

I came here to talk about his career and resignation, not to delve into his psyche, with respect.

Hermy

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Just a hunch. Most people are decent.

I came here to talk about his career and resignation, not to delve into his psyche, with respect.

Well then why mention his psyche?

As you brought it up I just wondered if perhaps you knew him outside of the political sphere.
Maybe he is a decent guy but he never gives me that impression in interviews.

blackwhite

Caquas wrote: »

“take up office” has no legal meaning.

Government Ministers are appointed by the President on the nomination of the Taoiseach. The problem for Jim McDaid was that the Dail must approve the Taoiseach’s nominee before the President makes the appointment. He fell at that hurdle because Haughey was on his last legs after dismissing Albert Reynolds. Fianna Fáil were in coalition with the PDs and Dessie O’Malley got cold feet when FG kicked up a fuss about James Pius Clarke so McDaid was dropped.

How many Ministers have been appointed or re-appointed in 100 years of independence? I would guess around 800 but Jim McDaid was the only one who failed to win the approval of Dáil Éireann. He was subsequently appointed Minister for Tourism & Sport in 1997 so no one has consistently failed to win the approval of Dáil Éireann. A low bar indeed!

It’s a figure of speech - we aren’t in the Four Courts here :rolleyes:

AFAIK McDaid was never actually put to the Dail for approval - Haughey withdrew the nomination before the Dail has a chance to approve/reject it

blackwhite

blackwhite wrote: »

It’s a figure of speech - we aren’t in the Four Courts here :rolleyes:

AFAIK McDaid was never actually put to the Dail for approval - Haughey withdrew the nomination before the Dail has a chance to approve/reject it

His nomination actually passed the Dail the morning before it was withdrawn, yeah, there was a debate and some mild jibes.

L1011

theoneeyedman wrote: »

OP, congrats, you are actually the first person I've heard referring to this sh1t show as Cowangate.... Brilliant!

I didn't actually create the thread; it was cut from another and the mod created the title - but I used the hashtag #cowengate about a week ago and was still far from the first!

Mearings

It has been suggested that Mr. Cowen's over the limit file was leaked by the Gardaí but if someone in a small country town with a population of, say, 3,336 is suddenly seen to be riding a bicycle, cadging a lift or travelling to Dublin by train, it would not take long for the smarter members of the populace to figure out the reason for such carry on.

Inquitus

Good enough for him, he was hardly open and transparent about his misdemeanours, and got what he deserved imho!

Sam Russell

Mearings wrote: »

It has been suggested that Mr. Cowen's over the limit file was leaked by the Gardaí but if someone in a small country town with a population of, say, 3,336 is suddenly seen to be riding a bicycle, cadging a lift or travelling to Dublin by train, it would not take long for the smarter members of the populace to figure out the reason for such carry on.

But was he?

He was driving around (one assumes) without L plates and a responsible adult for years, dashing to every funeral in the area without anyone noticing his lack of a driving licence, so who was to notice the (possible) non-observance of a short driving ban?

Bowlardo

He didn't have a driving license and yet he was going to be running the country.

We really don't need idiots like this then again he is a Cowen so what did we expect from a Biffo

paw patrol

good long article in gript by ken mcfadden

interesting stuff on Thomas Byrne


https://gript.ie/exclusive-thomas-byrne-betrayed-barry-cowen-and-me-as-well/

jimmycrackcorm

Is there anyone in FF that isn't backstabbing each other?
They all come across as weaselish.

paw patrol

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Is there anyone in FF that isn't backstabbing each other?
They all come across as weaselish.

Martin is a weak leader and this causes it. not unique to FF tbf , they're all at it. The greens have a heap of internal bullying accusations outstanding

expectationlost

paw patrol wrote: »

good long article in gript by ken mcfadden

interesting stuff on Thomas Byrne


https://gript.ie/exclusive-thomas-byrne-betrayed-barry-cowen-and-me-as-well/

so he has a job but was annoyed to not get another one, replacing somebody who would then be out of a job.


His current job must really suck.

paw patrol

expectationlost wrote: »

so he has a job but was annoyed to not get another one, replacing somebody who would then be out of a job.


His current job must really suck.

a long article and that is your take on it.
weird. but ok.

cml387

We're always told that politics is a nasty business.
This episode just shows how nasty and, I suspect, the real nastiness is more often than not between party colleagues

cml387

cml387 wrote: »

We're always told that politics is a nasty business.
This episode just shows how nasty

Somebody tipping-off the media about a factual conviction?

You think that's nasty?

Considering the sheer lies that are spun, half-truths and manipulation, this is comparatively innocent.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades!

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Somebody tipping-off the media about a factual conviction?

You think that's nasty?

Considering the sheer lies that are spun, half-truths and manipulation, this is comparatively innocent.

When the bastards in your own party are worse than those in the opposition and will finish your ministerial career before it has gotten started in a fit of pique / tantrum it must give great solace and a general sense of unity and well-being!

glasso

glasso wrote: »

When the bastards in your own party are worse than those in the opposition and will finish your ministerial career before it has gotten started in a fit of pique / tantrum it must give great solace and a general sense of unity and well-being!

Party loyalty has its place, especially in relation to the leadership, it gives stability and a qualified freedom to act creatively and dynamically. But general party loyalty, for its own sake, isn't particularly helpful to the cause of democracy.

We don't really need to get into all of the examples where an undesirable level of party-loyalty has been prioritised over the national interest, but it's safe to say it's a long-running theme.

All of the members of the Oireachtas are members in their own right, and they should act as such in the first instance. I find making a controversy about lack of party loyalty a little contrived, because most voters do not have some great hunger for more party loyalty.

Truthvader

paw patrol wrote: »

good long article in gript by ken mcfadden

interesting stuff on Thomas Byrne


https://gript.ie/exclusive-thomas-byrne-betrayed-barry-cowen-and-me-as-well/

Jesus what a collection. Me me me all all the way. The natural and expected progeny of those who attracted to Bertie and Charlie and saw themselves and their own self interest reflected

A Tyrant Named Miltiades!

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Party loyalty has its place, especially in relation to the leadership, it gives stability and a qualified freedom to act creatively and dynamically. But general party loyalty, for its own sake, isn't particularly helpful to the cause of democracy.

We don't really need to get into all of the examples where an undesirable level of party-loyalty has been prioritised over the national interest, but it's safe to say it's a long-running theme.

All of the members of the Oireachtas are members in their own right, and they should act as such in the first instance. I find making a controversy about lack of party loyalty a little contrived, because most voters do not have some great hunger for more party loyalty.

In fairness that is some waxing lyrical codswallop.

You don't stab an appointed minister in your own party in the back the day he is appointed.

Byrne comes out of this as bad as Cowen imo.

SNIP. No insults and image dumps please.

Mearings

I still think that Mr Cowen's interface with a breathalyser must have been known about in the Laois/Offaly constituency or at least in his home town of Clara.

Sam Russell

Mearings wrote: »

I still think that Mr Cowen's interface with a breathalyser must have been known about in the Laois/Offaly constituency or at least in his home town of Clara.

Clearly. It must have been the talk of the town. I think a lot of gossip would have been based on it, and people do not forget.

Now whether they grass him up to outsiders - I doubt it.

Mearings

You maybe right. One of the best kept political secrets, until......