Building your own firearm.

Zxthinger

So, this is just a theroretical question.
Is it possible to build and licence your own firearm or is there some law prohibiting such endeavours.

In the US people do it but they can't sell these guns to anyone.
Any thoughts..?

Feisar

I presume and it's only that, a presumption, that you would need to licence and then build.

Grizzly 45

Not under the Irish legislation.That can only be done by a gunsmith/gundealer...<MOD SNIP>
What you could do,if it was an Ar15 design is buy in the parts and get a liscensed gunsmith to assemble the gun for you.Which is no biggie once you have a couple of correct tools.
If it is some new custom firearm you have thought up yourself,I'd find a qualified gunsmith who knows his stuff and co work with him to build you the gun from scratch.And you have both signed an indemnity agreement ,that if this thing after the 1st shot has exploded an you are standing there like Yosemite Sam,fter Bugs has plugged his gun barrel,he is not responsible.

Brontosaurus

Do you mean actually manufacturing parts yourself? You need a license to manufacture firearms in this country. Unfortunately the laws regarding firearms in this country are so daft that technically even making a nice wooden stock is considered manufacturing a firearm, as all parts of a firearms are *technically* firearm parts.

In order to obtain a licence to manufacture, AFAIK you have to meet some pretty stringent criteria and would only be worth while if you seriously plan to do this on a commercial basis, or if you have a **** tonne of disposable income and a lot of patience to deal with the peculiarities of the law.

Zxthinger

So my interpretation is that such activities are not permitted by way of trade or business etc etc
Have you ever repaired a gun? Perhaps you filed an extraction claw to stop it slipping? Or made a replacement replacement firing pin? All very simple repairs but not done for profit and done on a licenced firearm.


http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1925/act/17/section/10/enacted/en/html#sec10

10.—(1) On and after the commencement of this Act it shall not be lawful for any person to manufacture, sell, repair, test, or prove, or expose for sale, or have in his possession for sale, repair, test, or proof, by way of trade or business, any firearm or ammunition unless such person is registered in the register of firearms dealers.

tudderone

Zxthinger wrote: »

So my interpretation is that such activities are not permitted by way of trade or business etc etc
Have you ever repaired a gun? Perhaps you filed an extraction claw to stop it slipping? Or made a replacement replacement firing pin? All very simple repairs but not done for profit and done on a licenced firearm.


http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1925/act/17/section/10/enacted/en/html#sec10

10.—(1) On and after the commencement of this Act it shall not be lawful for any person to manufacture, sell, repair, test, or prove, or expose for sale, or have in his possession for sale, repair, test, or proof, by way of trade or business, any firearm or ammunition unless such person is registered in the register of firearms dealers.

But an agent of a dealer can have in his possession firearms, parts of firearms and do the gunsmithing work ?

Grizzly 45

tudderone wrote: »

But an agent of a dealer can have in his possession firearms, parts of firearms and do the gunsmithing work ?

Short answer Yes. If you are a gun dealer or smith and registerd you can build the things or repair them.Which is scary as a dealer is a whole different kettle of haddock to a gunsmith.

As for DIY repair jobs thats a bit different to actually going and making a gun from raw materials.Although a good rule of thumb here should be.If it involves heat,or creating metallic shavings or spall. Best leave it to a qualified gunsmith.

Zxthinger

Fair points there Griz.

Let's say you want to build yer own. In theory it can't be for sale or transfer, and that my opinion & not a claim on interpretation on the law.. ok

Would proofing be a consideration that would need attention or are we still exempt or in a gray area?

Would you apply for the licence and then list the item as not yet manufactured?

In the absence of a serial number how might one be selected?

This all sounds complicated but a single shot rifle or shotgun is fairly simple in its design
A crossbow might be a more apt example that people might relate too without getting all worked up.

tudderone

Ireland had many talented gunmakers in the past, John Rigby, who is still going today, Stephen Grant, who served his apprenticeship with Kavanagh in Dawson street in Dublin, went to London and his products were as good if not better than the Purdey, Holland and Holland guns, he supplied the great and the good, including british and European royality.

I have a side by side sidelock made by Trulock in Parliament street Dublin, and the workmanship in it is as good as you would find anywhere.

The last factory making guns in Ireland was down in Tipperary i think, they were going into the 1980's, but i think they were getting aggrevation from the PTB and folded.

https://ramrodantiques.blogspot.com

Grizzly 45

[

The last factory making guns in Ireland was down in Tipperary i think, they were going into the 1980's, but i think they were getting aggrevation from the PTB and folded.

Ah The Fenian shotgun of Birr fame.Why we have the proof act of 1968. The oddest piece of legislation on the books in Ireland. Set up the proof house an all,but didnt want to appoint or pay for a Birmingham master proofer,and it was just as handy to import proofed barrels and actins from the UK

They folded long before the 1980s.It just wasnt a good product more than anything else ,and the owner was even accused of being a British agent in Dail debates
Dáil Éireann - Volume 269 - 21 November, 1973) http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0269/D.0269.197311210031.html
[

Grizzly 45

Zxthinger wrote: »

Fair points there Griz.

Let's say you want to build yer own. In theory it can't be for sale or transfer, and that my opinion & not a claim on interpretation on the law.. ok

Would proofing be a consideration that would need attention or are we still exempt or in a gray area?

Would you apply for the licence and then list the item as not yet manufactured?

In the absence of a serial number how might one be selected?

This all sounds complicated but a single shot rifle or shotgun is fairly simple in its design
A crossbow might be a more apt example that people might relate too without getting all worked up.

The proofing thing is really gray.We have an act,but dont enforce it,eventhough guns are now being made here,and rifles are precluded from the act too for some reasson.Most guns that are imported are either UK or EU country proofed,so I guess it makes the Irish act superflous,and the US guns are accepted as is too when imported direct from the US. So based on all that.I dont know!
:eek:

I'd say you'd have to have your gunsmith build it first and then apply for the liscense Under the EU directive he does have to mark the reciver with his details and serial number,and the pressure bearing parts have to have matching serial numbers as well. So if it is a custom once off it can be called "The xthinger special,by J Fksticks Ireland serial nr 00001" for example. The serial nr and the name of the gun would be then on your liscense.

A crossbow??Jeeze! where do you put any serial numbers on that?

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

[



Ah The Fenian shotgun of Birr fame.Why we have the proof act of 1968. The oddest piece of legislation on the books in Ireland. Set up the proof house an all,but didnt want to appoint or pay for a Birmingham master proofer,and it was just as handy to import proofed barrels and actins from the UK

They folded long before the 1980s.It just wasnt a good product more than anything else ,and the owner was even accused of being a British agent in Dail debates
Dáil Éireann - Volume 269 - 21 November, 1973) http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0269/D.0269.197311210031.html
[

Are you sure ? I remember seeing an advert for the guns and didn't think it was that old. The problem with the gun trade here was it was just so much easier to get stuff made up in Birmingham or leige. I see a lot of Irish guns and they have Brum or leige proofmarks, Just the retailers name stamped on.

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The proofing thing is really gray.We have an act,but dont enforce it,eventhough guns are now being made here,and rifles are precluded from the act too for some reasson.Most guns that are imported are either UK or EU country proofed,so I guess it makes the Irish act superflous,and the US guns are accepted as is too when imported direct from the US. So based on all that.I dont know!
:eek:

I'd say you'd have to have your gunsmith build it first and then apply for the liscense Under the EU directive he does have to mark the reciver with his details and serial number,and the pressure bearing parts have to have matching serial numbers as well. So if it is a custom once off it can be called "The xthinger special,by J Fksticks Ireland serial nr 00001" for example. The serial nr and the name of the gun would be then on your liscense.

A crossbow??Jeeze! where do you put any serial numbers on that?

Most American guns and rifles are proofed, the makers do it themselves, after all America is a very litigious place. Someone killed or maimed could be the end of your company.

Grizzly 45

tudderone wrote: »

Are you sure ? I remember seeing an advert for the guns and didn't think it was that old. The problem with the gun trade here was it was just so much easier to get stuff made up in Birmingham or leige. I see a lot of Irish guns and they have Brum or liege proofmarks, Just the retailers name stamped on.

Positive.They ceased trading about 1970 according to company house records.

Grizzly 45

tudderone wrote: »

Most American guns and rifles are proofed, the makers do it themselves, after all America is a very litigious place. Someone killed or maimed could be the end of your company.

SAMMI,but thy don't test individual guns, they might batch test a group. They still have guns explode occasionaly over there.

juice1304

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

SAMMI,but thy don't test individual guns, they might batch test a group. They still have guns explode occasionaly over there.

Every American manufacturer I know individually proofs their guns.

juice1304

As for building your own firearm here the only people who can do it are registered firearms dealers. There is no way around it and if they even thought you were going to manufacture something they would be all over you and harrass you for the rest of your life. And you can be sure they would take any toolding they thought could be used and any judge would sign off on it because the ptb can do whatever they want to people in this country and especially when it comes to firearms.
If you even want to do simple repair jobs under the licence of a registered dealer it has to be approved by the DOJ and done on their registered premises. I spoke with the doj about this in lenght.
And i can say if they even thought a dealer were manufacturing they would be very interested in it and would probably cause an aful lot of problem.

Zxthinger

Well to come clean .... I was thinking about building a medieval crossbow. But as usual no fun is permitted here. No interest in modern units.

tudderone

Zxthinger wrote: »

Well to come clean .... I was thinking about building a medieval crossbow. But as usual no fun is permitted here. No interest in modern units.

Welcome to Ireland :rolleyes:

juice1304

Zxthinger wrote: »

Well to come clean .... I was thinking about building a medieval crossbow. But as usual no fun is permitted here. No interest in modern units.

Ye that would be a fun project, i plan on building one myself but not here. Its a shame this country is so backward and they can just ban everything so easily without any thought or logical reasoning.

tudderone

juice1304 wrote: »

Ye that would be a fun project, i plan on building one myself but not here. Its a shame this country is so backward and they can just ban everything so easily without any thought or logical reasoning.

Its called being "progressive" m'kay :rolleyes:.

Grizzly 45

There are that I know of ,three medival reenactors who have apprently built and liscensed crossbows here of those types.So it can be done?
According to them they approached their local cheifs and asked what the situation would be about doing such for re enactment and had a very positive response to the projects.
So might be worth a try?

Grizzly 45

juice1304 wrote: »

Every American manufacturer I know individually proofs their guns.

So how do I know this as a consumer?And thanks for that info!! Ill be sueing Remington for selling me a used gun as a new item,as if you put one shot down a gun in the US its classified as used!
Were that the case,US gun makers wouldnt be doing the odd annual product recalls or issuing saftey warnings, as these faults would be picked up on individual guns and faulty batches were they proof tested like in Europe.

juice1304

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So how do I know this as a consumer?And thanks for that info!! Ill be sueing Remington for selling me a used gun as a new item,as if you put one shot down a gun in the US its classified as used!
Were that the case,US gun makers wouldnt be doing the odd annual product recalls or issuing saftey warnings, as these faults would be picked up on individual guns and faulty batches were they proof tested like in Europe.

I guess ruger are selling used guns then. And winchester, mossberg, remington, daniel defense, barrett etc. and practically any other manufacturer i can think of. Ive spoken with many of these manufacturers in person at IWA you can also read it on many of their websites and it has been shown in plenty of videos.
Those other issues are design issues and wouldnt be noticed in proofing

Grizzly 45

juice1304 wrote: »

I guess ruger are selling used guns then. And winchester, mossberg, remington, daniel defense, barrett etc. and practically any other manufacturer i can think of. Ive spoken with many of these manufacturers in person at IWA you can also read it on many of their websites and it has been shown in plenty of videos.
Those other issues are design issues and wouldnt be noticed in proofing

So sort of like Boeing being able to sign off on the 737 C Max itself then?:P
Yeah fired guns.All those guns advertised then as "NEVER fired NIB" should have a cavaet of excluding makers test fire and zeroing rounds . Its the semantics of legal and advertising over there.:rolleyes:

Seriosly?No one woudld notice a fault like the S&W Mp15 slam firing in a proof fire situation? You know that would be out the door if that happened in Ulm or Leige in the proof house.
Call me a bit old fashioned,but in this case I think we in Europe got it right. I mean you dont hear of Sauer,or Walther or Benelli or Austrian made Glock firearms detonating with normal factory loads.seems to happen a bit with US brands. Might ask these US company reps next time about that,and whats the situation for product liability in cases like that?

tudderone

On some of the American made firearms i have bought, 2 ruger .22 pistols for instance, you get a little envelope with a fired case in it. I believe in some states in the US you take this case and lodge it with the local police ? So those guns are deffo fired at the factory.

Grizzly 45

That's a new one... Never heard of that!:eek:
The only state I've ever heard of attempting that was Maryland, and they abandoned the idea as being too impractical,and had solved zero gun crime.We even toyed with the idea here and promptly killed it too as impractical back in the 1970s.

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

That's a new one... Never heard of that!:eek:
The only state I've ever heard of attempting that was Maryland, and they abandoned the idea as being too impractical,and had solved zero gun crime.We even toyed with the idea here and promptly killed it too as impractical back in the 1970s.

Yup, it was required in Maryland and New York. When you register the gun, the spent case is taken and kept on file.

Edit, its been discontinued as being............well bloody useless.

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20151113/shell-casing-shell-games

Stephenc66

I seem to remember adverts in "Guns and Ammo" magazines of the 80's advertising kits of parts to build Black Powder firearms (In the US)

Grizzly 45

They still exist.
Connecticut Valley Arms [CVA] until it was taken over and is now known as Traditions,as does Dixie gun works, make them. Pretty simple kit and it teaches you some woodworking, gun blueing and fitting skills. As they aren't classified as firearms stateside and in some more progressive EU countries...Anyone can buy and play with them.Even BP revolvers as they are classified as a non-firearm or a curio and relic design over 60 years old.

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

They still exist.
Connecticut Valley Arms [CVA] until it was taken over and is now known as Traditions,as does Dixie gun works, make them. Pretty simple kit and it teaches you some woodworking, gun blueing and fitting skills. As they aren't classified as firearms stateside and in some more progressive EU countries...Anyone can buy and play with them.Even BP revolvers as they are classified as a non-firearm or a curio and relic design over 60 years old.

As well as having a blackpowder only hunting season in America. Its amazing, even in eastern European countries which were under the heel of the USSR only a very short time ago, they seem to have better gun/hunting laws than the complete mess we have.
I subscribe to this chap in Hungary, and things seem very common sense out there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUuqdAQmt2Q

Grizzly 45

Yup, having a Communist boot in your face for 50 plus years does tend to make you rather bolshie about gun ownership. Something we forgot after having our neighbours boot on our neck for 500 years.,and the rest of Europe never really experiencing for great lengths of time.

jb88

Build your own firearm?
Look if you have a licence for the receiver, then why not. Or maybe not.

I have seen a firearms dealer "put together", firearms with no experience of how to do it properly and sell those firearms at huge mark up to customers who spent years complaining about how this doesn't work and that doesn't work.
When I asked them where said firearm was purchased at the time I almost cried. Im speaking in the 50+ times here at this stage and the quality isn't getting much better. But hey what do I know.


Registered firearms dealer and gun plumber are two different things entirely, unless your going to be registered as an RFD and call yourself a gunsmith as well, id stick to putting your own guns together.


But ive seen one of your guns and its actually very well put together and not too bad on the pricing side either. If your the guy im thinking about. I personally wouldn't have an issue but I know what to look for in most guns, (Not all).


If I were getting work done depending on the type of gun, there are only a few places I would go and most of them are struggling.

Grizzly 45

Speaking of Fenian shotguns in Birr. From the RTE archives...
https://www.rte.ie/archives/category/business/2018/1112/1010365-fenian-gun-company/

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Speaking of Fenian shotguns in Birr. From the RTE archives...
https://www.rte.ie/archives/category/business/2018/1112/1010365-fenian-gun-company/

Thats an excellent find grizz.

PPE, Safety glasses, ear muff's ? BAH - they are for oul wans.

Machine guards ? Sure who needs 10 fingers anyways ?

A proof house to operate on the output of one small company ? Never really viable was it ?

I always associated the name Kavanagh with the Fenian guns, but never knew it was one of the Kavanagh family who were a very well known and well respected gunmakers for a very long time in Dawson street in Dublin.

tudderone

Anyone know where this club was, or any of the people in it ? Looks like a railway arch.

https://www.rte.ie/archives/2017/0829/900839-dublin-pistol-club/

Zxthinger

I say it was under the arches at trinity.

tudderone

Zxthinger wrote: »

I say it was under the arches at trinity.

They are still, or were until recently shooting in a corridor, in the college.

Grizzly 45

Anyone notice the even for back then, dispraging and snotty tone of the commentator? RTE was even anti gun back then.:mad::rolleyes:

Zxthinger

Judging from the recoil they were all shooting 22lr

extremetaz

tudderone wrote: »

They are still, or were until recently shooting in a corridor, in the college.

That's a bit harsh!

We had a 10m air range in the old chemistry building after the 'Temporary range' which we occupied for ~20years was demolished to make way for the new business school. Chemisty building range is decommissioned now as well on account of that building being demolished to make way for the Learning Foundry building.

New 25m range is coming (22LR rated) and promises to be quite a thing. For now all activity is shifted to Wilkinstown.

jb88

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Speaking of Fenian shotguns in Birr. From the RTE archives...
https://www.rte.ie/archives/category/business/2018/1112/1010365-fenian-gun-company/

I know an RFD with two he may be willing to part with if anyones interested. Those shotguns that is.

Grizzly 45

Zxthinger wrote: »

Judging from the recoil they were all shooting 22lr

Couple of .38? Revolvers there too.A very nice high standard. 22target pistol there (the space gun)Big bucks for the 1960s
Long before the the draconian sport killingTCO of 1972.Wonder what happened to those guns?:(