Bakery/Cafe

VENEATS

I love to bake and am pretty good at creating new flavours etc. I was on the Great Irish Bake Off (back in the day). And did really well. I also came runner up in Aldi's bread competition a few years ago.

I've worked in a cafe, in the past, as a waitress.

I was offered a restaurant (closed down) as a pop up. Rent free. But obviously electricity water rates and other expenses would have to be paid myself.

I'm just looking for guidance on the steps it takes to start a pop up cafe. As it was a restaurant, so most of the equipment is already there but for a coffee machine and display fridge. I'd also like a soft serve machine but would obviously be looking to short term rentals for them.

Any advice.

I can give more info if needed. I have a degree in Accountancy, so for profit margins, pricing etc, I'm ok.

Thank You.

Bandara

Please don’t do this. It’s the most competitive, relentless, exhausting and so incredibly hard to make only a small loss, let alone enough to break even, industry that there is.

It’s a graveyard of people who think they are great bakers / make a great lasagne / are passionate about their scones / all fuelled by friends and family.

And I mean none of this towards suggesting in any way that your not a competent person, I’ve just seen it so many times.

It’s a crushing business. Honestly, I’ve been in it my entire life. Whereas I respect your dreams and your right to want to chase them. Be aware that your picking the hardest road there is in any industry out there.

If you want to ask any Specific questions I’d be more than happy to help, as would the other good experienced posters on here. It’s a topic when everyone will give your their opinion, but what you really need is their experiences.

Ask away.

VENEATS

Bandara wrote: »

Please don’t do this. It’s the most competitive, relentless, exhausting and so incredibly hard to make only a small loss, let alone enough to break even, industry that there is.

It’s a graveyard of people who think they are great bakers / make a great lasagne / are passionate about their scones / all fuelled by friends and family.

And I mean none of this towards suggesting in any way that your not a competent person, I’ve just seen it so many times.

It’s a crushing business. Honestly, I’ve been in it my entire life. Whereas I respect your dreams and your right to want to chase them. Be aware that your picking the hardest road there is in any industry out there.

If you want to ask any Specific questions I’d be more than happy to help, as would the other good experienced posters on here. It’s a topic when everyone will give your their opinion, but what you really need is their experiences.

Ask away.

Thanks very much for your response. And take your opinion on board. Absolutely. I can take brutal honesty, and I'd prefer it.

Fully get that the market is hard and even with great products and work it would be hard to make anything. Likelihood of breaking even is small. A lot of competition (many of whom are struggling).

However, I was offered a fully kitted out kitchen for 10 weeks rent free, as a pop up. It was formerly a restaurant. T
he owner asked me if I'd be interested because he wants to show that a profit could be made in that building to future leasees.

So the kitchen is up to standard. What I'm wondering is how much work/cost would be involved in going through the red tape of starting it and making it safe to trade. I dont mean insurance etc but would inspectors need to come down etc.

I know I'll have to get official advice but if there is a savage amount of work in just starting up (red tape), then I wouldnt do it. I always wanted to just try it and when i got this opportunity, I find it tempting. But this wouldnt be a project I'd be doing beyond the 10 weeks, for the reasons you mentioned. Obviously for the 10-12 weeks I'd give it my all, (im on a years career break)

duploelabs

VENEATS wrote: »

Thanks very much for your response. And take your opinion on board. Absolutely. I can take brutal honesty, and I'd prefer it.

Fully get that the market is hard and even with great products and work it would be hard to make anything. Likelihood of breaking even is small. A lot of competition (many of whom are struggling).

However, I was offered a fully kitted out kitchen for 10 weeks rent free, as a pop up. It was formerly a restaurant. T
he owner asked me if I'd be interested because he wants to show that a profit could be made in that building to future leasees.

So the kitchen is up to standard. What I'm wondering is how much work/cost would be involved in going through the red tape of starting it and making it safe to trade. I dont mean insurance etc but would inspectors need to come down etc.

I know I'll have to get official advice but if there is a savage amount of work in just starting up (red tape), then I wouldnt do it. I always wanted to just try it and when i got this opportunity, I find it tempting. But this wouldnt be a project I'd be doing beyond the 10 weeks, for the reasons you mentioned. Obviously for the 10-12 weeks I'd give it my all, (im on a years career break)

I'd echo Bandara's sentiment, mainly because we're both experienced in the field. However, if you're adamant about continuing, I admire your bravery (if a little naive).
First things first, you need to construct a business plan and menu, both will dictate what equipment, production schedule, suppliers and haccp plan.
Then approach your local EHO to inspect your premises, they will examine your kitchen and provide an audit of works to take place. Establish what is necessary and what is recommended. Follow this to a T and do not cut corners. Most operators are scared of your EHO, but they're like calling your Tax office, generally they're there to aid you so you don't f*ck up, don't follow the former and you'll be in the latter, then you're on the back foot.
This may take up the brunt of your 10-12 weeks, but if you're going to make it work, do it the right way first otherwise you'll be chasing your tail constantly.

antoinolachtnai

The problem is that to the extent that there is any money at all to be made, it's by building up the trade and making steady income over the long term. This is especially the case if you have a sophisticated, innovative product.

Unless there is an awful lot of passing trade then there isn't likely to be any money to be made in twelve weeks, particularly the next 12 weeks. If there is such passing trade, the way to go is not to have any sort of sophisticated standard of food but a very simple setup with a very narrow menu and a focus on coffee.

If you have this narrow menu then the red tape is not too big.

But you still have out of pocket costs in terms of setup and signage and marketing.

But if you are not planning to be in this business long-term, I really would not do this.

Humour Me

How much funding do you have to invest in this? Even if you get the premises rent free, I doubt you will even cover your costs over the 12 weeks, let alone generate a profit. I would be asking the landlord to also cover rates etc since this scheme is mainly for his benefit.

VENEATS

Humour Me wrote: »

How much funding do you have to invest in this? Even if you get the premises rent free, I doubt you will even cover your costs over the 12 weeks, let alone generate a profit. I would be asking the landlord to also cover rates etc since this scheme is mainly for his benefit.

Hi, I'm not wanting to brag, but funds isnt an issue and if I'm wanting the experience as opposed to breaking even.

VENEATS

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The problem is that to the extent that there is any money at all to be made, it's by building up the trade and making steady income over the long term. This is especially the case if you have a sophisticated, innovative product.

Unless there is an awful lot of passing trade then there isn't likely to be any money to be made in twelve weeks, particularly the next 12 weeks. If there is such passing trade, the way to go is not to have any sort of sophisticated standard of food but a very simple setup with a very narrow menu and a focus on coffee.

If you have this narrow menu then the red tape is not too big.

But you still have out of pocket costs in terms of setup and signage and marketing.

But if you are not planning to be in this business long-term, I really would not do this.

I dont mind making a loss, I just want the experience. My main issue is if the red tape is extensive, then it wouldnt be worth it for just 10 weeks. There is good passing trade. Aldi, pharmacy, bookshop, 2x clothing stores and butchers next door.

duploelabs

VENEATS wrote: »

I dont mind making a loss, I just want the experience. My main issue is if the red tape is extensive, then it wouldnt be worth it for just 10 weeks. There is good passing trade. Aldi, pharmacy, bookshop, 2x clothing stores and butchers next door.

If it experience you want, why not work and going the knowledge of operations somewhere else? From that gain the knowledge of the nuts and bolts of the BOH. Park the doing your own thing for a while as going in now without full practical experience may taint any enthusiasm for a later project when the stars are properly aligned.

armaghlad

Good luck. Might I recommend social media (done properly). Instagram especially and even tiktok. Free advertising to showcase your venture and like the saying goes you eat with your eyes.

antoinolachtnai

If you want to do this and want to get up and running fast, hire someone who knows the ropes. If this is a proper kitchen and restaurant, they will solve the problems very quickly and maybe put you in the right general direction generally. There should be talented people around at the moment, without a whole lot to do.

Really, hiring a suitable consultant and getting the red tape sorted out are part and parcel of opening an operation like this. If you really want the experience, this is the experience you need. The whole thing will probably end up costing you five or ten grand, but it is cheaper than going to business school.

silver2020

If its a 10-12 week pop up and most of the equipment is there and you understand it's a bit of a punt, then I'd go for it as you don't have a lot to lose.

If you were starting from scratch and taking a new lease, I'd run a mile.

Extra equipment needed can be picked up secondhand quite easily. World of catering in Kilcullen or auctionxchange https://auctionxchange.ie/catalogue/all-catalogues/all-venues/Commercial-Catering/all-sources/,,,83,,,id_d,,,,,25/#view

If there are offices nearby, look at offering catering for any meetings they may have.

VENEATS

armaghlad wrote: »

Good luck. Might I recommend social media (done properly). Instagram especially and even tiktok. Free advertising to showcase your venture and like the saying goes you eat with your eyes.

Thanks

VENEATS

silver2020 wrote: »

If its a 10-12 week pop up and most of the equipment is there and you understand it's a bit of a punt, then I'd go for it as you don't have a lot to lose.

If you were starting from scratch and taking a new lease, I'd run a mile.

Extra equipment needed can be picked up secondhand quite easily. World of catering in Kilcullen or auctionxchange https://auctionxchange.ie/catalogue/all-catalogues/all-venues/Commercial-Catering/all-sources/,,,83,,,id_d,,,,,25/#view

If there are offices nearby, look at offering catering for any meetings they may have.

I've decided to take the plunge. It's something I'd regret if I didnt do it, and I have the privillege to be able to afford to make a loss. I've been planning menus for years, for the dream.

I'm actually going to rent the equipment and got a great deal. Instead of buying used and then reselling.

Yeah I wouldnt do it with a contract. I took 8 weeks, rent free. And just after sorting my pop up insurance.

Few more things to do but hopefully start by the end of the month.

Thanks v much for your response.

myNewName

VENEATS wrote: »

I've decided to take the plunge. It's something I'd regret if I didnt do it, and I have the privillege to be able to afford to make a loss. I've been planning menus for years, for the dream.

Congratulations, best of luck with it!

PickYourName

VENEATS wrote: »

I've decided to take the plunge. It's something I'd regret if I didnt do it, and I have the privillege to be able to afford to make a loss. I've been planning menus for years, for the dream.

I've only just seen your original post. It would have been more helpful if people actually answered your question rather than trying to discourage you, though to be fair they're valid points: it is tough (but not impossible!).

In answer to your original question, there's not a huge amount. The big one is you'll need to register as a food business with the HSE. Key thing here is to educate yourself on what's needed and preferably get them to visit you before you open.

It is a very competitive market, even before the pandemic. Incredibly tough now, but there are opportunities, though they are very location dependent.

A lot depends on the type of product you have and how it is marketed. Social media, especially Instagram and Facebook are absolutely vital.

Speaking of Facebook, there's a couple of Facebook groups that offer useful advice "Cafe and Coffee Shop Owners" and "Coffee Shop Start-up".

Where is the location? Town or city centre? If so, that will definitely be tough, but there are huge opportunities in poorly served locations with a lot of housing where people are still working from home.

By the way, if you're looking for a coffee machine for a period, I may have one.

Anyway, best of luck!

VENEATS

PickYourName wrote: »

I've only just seen your original post. It would have been more helpful if people actually answered your question rather than trying to discourage you, though to be fair they're valid points: it is tough (but not impossible!).

In answer to your original question, there's not a huge amount. The big one is you'll need to register as a food business with the HSE. Key thing here is to educate yourself on what's needed and preferably get them to visit you before you open.

It is a very competitive market, even before the pandemic. Incredibly tough now, but there are opportunities, though they are very location dependent.

A lot depends on the type of product you have and how it is marketed. Social media, especially Instagram and Facebook are absolutely vital.

Speaking of Facebook, there's a couple of Facebook groups that offer useful advice "Cafe and Coffee Shop Owners" and "Coffee Shop Start-up".

Where is the location? Town or city centre? If so, that will definitely be tough, but there are huge opportunities in poorly served locations with a lot of housing where people are still working from home.

By the way, if you're looking for a coffee machine for a period, I may have one.

Anyway, best of luck!

Thanks very much. I agreed 8 weeks +2 weeks to organise. The relevant authorities will come the day after open day. Coffee machine and some other equipment will be rented. I got to haggle well because the times we are in. But thanks for the offer.

The location is in town near some very busy shops but there is only one other bakery on the other end of town. Also a number of housing estates within walking distance. Plenty of out door space with tables and chairs already there.

Yeah socials are very important. I've got a promise from the towns social media administrators to advertise my opening date nearer the date of opening. And of course, I will have my own accounts showing the type of food you can expect.

Sourcing the best coffee beans is a bit of a hard job but everything else seems to be coming together nicely (fingers, crossed. Dont want to jinx it).

PickYourName

VENEATS wrote: »

Thanks very much. I agreed 8 weeks +2 weeks to organise. The relevant authorities will come the day after open day. Coffee machine and some other equipment will be rented. I got to haggle well because the times we are in. But thanks for the offer.

The location is in town near some very busy shops but there is only one other bakery on the other end of town. Also a number of housing estates within walking distance. Plenty of out door space with tables and chairs already there.

Yeah socials are very important. I've got a promise from the towns social media administrators to advertise my opening date nearer the date of opening. And of course, I will have my own accounts showing the type of food you can expect.

Sourcing the best coffee beans is a bit of a hard job but everything else seems to be coming together nicely (fingers, crossed. Dont want to jinx it).

Well done - and best of luck with it.

One thing, though: why do you say it's a hard job sourcing coffee? There are tons of really good small roasters around. If you're doing quality food you should try and match it with great coffee, as it's an easy way to differentiate from a lot of the stuff that's served in most places. Some are a bit precious about what they do, but most are very supportive. They can provide a lot of help and support in getting you set up and running, helping with ongoing training etc.

VENEATS

PickYourName wrote: »

Well done - and best of luck with it.

One thing, though: why do you say it's a hard job sourcing coffee? There are tons of really good small roasters around. If you're doing quality food you should try and match it with great coffee, as it's an easy way to differentiate from a lot of the stuff that's served in most places. Some are a bit precious about what they do, but most are very supportive. They can provide a lot of help and support in getting you set up and running, helping with ongoing training etc.

It's hard in that there are so many types. I want to go for a less known smaller brand. But it's difficult to choose between them. Most of them offer samples, which I'll be trying in the days to come. It's just probably, imo, the most important item on the menu. People are picky. And I want to get it right.

PickYourName

VENEATS wrote: »

It's hard in that there are so many types. I want to go for a less known smaller brand. But it's difficult to choose between them. Most of them offer samples, which I'll be trying in the days to come. It's just probably, imo, the most important item on the menu. People are picky. And I want to get it right.

It's not so much the type of coffee - best judge there is taste - but where you get it from.

If you purchase direct from the company roasting it, you can get a lot of help and support. This isn't too critical if it is a pop-up over a few weeks, but if you've ambitions beyond that, it's a really important relationship to have.

We went on a tasting tour of cafes and produced short-list, based on taste. We met with the top three suppliers and ultimately decided based on best business fit.

silver2020

For coffee, I'd look at a "hipster" brand. The two that come to mind are PS Coffee Roasters & 3FE both have quite strong following and seen as premium. Java Republic would be mass market premium.

One thing I noticed is that I'm meeting people more in coffee shops now than in offices, so if you have the space, have meeting corners that quiet meetings can be had between professionals & clients, decent wifi and reasonably priced bottles of water (ballygowan is about 28c a bottle in musgraves, so €1 would give you a decent margin and probably plenty of takeaway sales)

CBear1993

The price of a coffee in PS Coffee Roasters is ridiculous though to be honest, weighing it all up? Maybe in Dublin Central it would appeal ,and it certainly gets its following in urban Kildare, but further than that a lot of people would be left with a sour taste in their mouth upon paying at the till.

silver2020

CBear1993 wrote: »

The price of a coffee in PS Coffee Roasters is ridiculous though to be honest, weighing it all up? Maybe in Dublin Central it would appeal ,and it certainly gets its following in urban Kildare, but further than that a lot of people would be left with a sour taste in their mouth upon paying at the till.

I know a place that serves PS coffee and they charge 2.50. Up to the seller to decide the price.

PickYourName

CBear1993 wrote: »

The price of a coffee in PS Coffee Roasters is ridiculous though to be honest, weighing it all up? Maybe in Dublin Central it would appeal ,and it certainly gets its following in urban Kildare, but further than that a lot of people would be left with a sour taste in their mouth upon paying at the till.

It's rarely a good strategy to compete on price; there will always be someone who will sell cheaper. This is especially the case if the coffee is being paired with quality food, as in this case. I've no idea how much PS Coffee charge, but there are plenty of small roasters around with reasonable pricing.

It's a highly competitive market and a lot easier to compete by offering quality and value than trying to sell the cheapest coffee.

VENEATS

Just a quick update, the hours are long but enjoyable. Surprisingly the novelty hasnt worn off. Covid, as I knew, makes it more difficult however we have plenty of outdoor space.

As for how we are getting on financially. It helps with rent being free. I can take a very handsome wage out of it, even with the hours put in.

However, long term the hours would probably be unfeasible. The long hours are a killer. We are still new so uncertainty of future prospects etc. I'll keep doing it for a few more months or until the owner boots me out.

PickYourName

Well done, and thanks for the update. Always good to hear of someone making a go of it.

Just out of curiosity, whose coffee did you go with in the end?

westgolf

Best of luck with your venture and also thank you for coming back to update the thread.

tacofries

Best of luck! Enjoy the thrill of the 8 weeks. It will be very insightful for you

VENEATS

PickYourName wrote: »

Well done, and thanks for the update. Always good to hear of someone making a go of it.

Just out of curiosity, whose coffee did you go with in the end?

We actually went for South Coast Coffee. It was great tasting and they have very good customer service for our business.

Radicle

Bandara wrote: »

Please don’t do this. It’s the most competitive, relentless, exhausting and so incredibly hard to make only a small loss, let alone enough to break even, industry that there is.

It’s a graveyard of people who think they are great bakers / make a great lasagne / are passionate about their scones / all fuelled by friends and family.

And I mean none of this towards suggesting in any way that your not a competent person, I’ve just seen it so many times.

It’s a crushing business. Honestly, I’ve been in it my entire life. Whereas I respect your dreams and your right to want to chase them. Be aware that your picking the hardest road there is in any industry out there.

If you want to ask any Specific questions I’d be more than happy to help, as would the other good experienced posters on here. It’s a topic when everyone will give your their opinion, but what you really need is their experiences.

Ask away.

I would like to listen your experience

poker--addict

How’s it going? In at the deep end given these times!

VENEATS

poker--addict wrote: »

How’s it going? In at the deep end given these times!

Hi. So I did it for 14 weeks in total. It was profitable even considering the addition of the expenses I didnt have to cover, however just a small wage approx 400 (but covid did impact), if I had to pay these expenses. And for this I was working many hours. It depends what you want. If you the freedom of entrepreneurship, then great. If you want to earn a great living, probably not.

PickYourName

VENEATS wrote: »

Hi. So I did it for 14 weeks in total. It was profitable even considering the addition of the expenses I didnt have to cover, however just a small wage approx 400 (but covid did impact), if I had to pay these expenses. And for this I was working many hours. It depends what you want. If you the freedom of entrepreneurship, then great. If you want to earn a great living, probably not.

Well done!

Would I be correct in assuming that you also learned a huge amount?

With best wishes for your next venture!

By the way, it's not easy, but it is possible to earn a great living in the business, but that's not why most people are in it.

VENEATS

PickYourName wrote: »

Well done!

Would I be correct in assuming that you also learned a huge amount?

With best wishes for your next venture!

By the way, it's not easy, but it is possible to earn a great living in the business, but that's not why most people are in it.

I'm a selfish boards.ie user, sorry for not getting back sooner. Absolutely learned a huge amount. And I'm sure if you used social media successfully and got to know your trade you could really do well.

It's really just something I wanted to try and something I could notch off the list of things to do.