Couple Ordered to Demolish House - any update?

Jazz Hands

Have they given a demolition date?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120953668#Comment_120953668

Taking ownership by the state doesn't solve the problem of the location. The house is in the wrong location, and will generate inappropriate traffic for the location that it is in. The roads can't support a house of that size in that location. That's one of the reasons why planning was refused.

It has to come down.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120954140#Comment_120954140

The planning was refused for a much smaller house initially. I don’t think it was highways objecting.

Gatling

Why does the owner go by different names in articles and on other planning applications ,one says his name is Michael and others say his name is Chris

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120953538#Comment_120953538

...and what then? What needs to be done to the house (given their lack of concern for things like building regs)? Who would get the house - a social welfare recipient? Would they be able to afford to heat it? How would they get to it?

Anyhow, using the housing crisis as an excuse to allow people to break the law is weak and shouldn't be given a chance.

micar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120954263#Comment_120954263

I've wondered that as well.

I also noticed the very first part of the address odiffers on the planning applications.

It's like they're trying to say applications relate to different people and to different properties.

rn

There's certainly an argument to retain any house in a housing crisis. But practical reality is this house is useless to people on the housing list. It's a luxury residence at over 500m2. Put someone into it that can't actually afford to keep it maintained, either it goes to ruin over 10-20 years or the state pick up the tab.

But the over arching point is the legal aspect. This building isn't legal so ownership is irrelevant.

It must come down.

standardg60

It annoys me when the 'homeless crisis' rears it's head in discussions like this. These owners never have and never will be victims of it, they've simply thrown two fingers up at both the law of the land and anyone who happens to be struggling to gain accommodation.

There is a case to be made that wilful non payment of rent/mortgage repayments or breach of planning should be made criminal matters, how is it that those who indulge in it can delay eviction or demolition for years yet others can be jailed for non payment of a TV licence!

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120954796#Comment_120954796

Just on your last point the answer is that people are not jailed for failing to pay their TV licence.

However if prosecuted for not having a licence and convicted they may be fined.

Failure to pay the fine could lead to a custodial sentence.

Gusser09

I suspect that there is a reason why chris/michael and Rose done that PR piece/disaster last week.

I imagine legally their brief has told them the game is up and the council can seek enforcement now and there is nothing they can legally do to prevent it. No more courts or injunctions.

The next few months will tell a lot. I still think the last thing meath cc want to do is enforce this but the Murrays have backed them into a corner.

It'll be some site to see it coming down. I dont think it'll happen though.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120954342#Comment_120954342

So we have no means of allowing others to live in buildings that weren't purpose built now? There are many things that could be done with it that would be more beneficial than knocking it down.

How is taking the house from them "allowing people to break the law" exactly?

They lose the house! It makes no difference to them if its knocked down or its taken from them, its no longer theirs.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120954712#Comment_120954712

Doesn't the state take ownership of other things that were built/acquired illegally? Does CAB destroy everything it takes?

CAB does this under "non-Conviction Based Forfeiture" to detect and seize illegitimate assets.

"CAB’s remit is not limited to proceeds deriving from particular forms of criminal activity and includes the proceeds of fraud and other forms of white collar crime."

So if this house is illegal (which it surely seems to be) then it would appear to come under CABs remit to seize and the property be forfeited by the "owners".

Bluefoam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955462#Comment_120955462

You don't seem to understand the basic principal. The planning was refused on a number of grounds; the house should not have been built; this isn't about punishing them; this is about establishing and ensuring that the laws of the land are followed; otherwise we have lawlessness...

The building needs to be knocked on principal. This house isn't going to solve our housing issue and the state have no right to take ownership of the land. The legal battle would take years and be extremely complicated if they tried.

The couple have been ordered to take the house down, that is what needs to happen. The series of events that have led to this have been entirely in their hands. Any anger and resentment you have should be towards them, not the planners or the government.

Having said all that, the planning laws need to be reviewed and rewritten, the planners have failed and need to be replaced & the plan for the development of the country needs to be rewritten and actually followed. But this has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Bluefoam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955493#Comment_120955493

Sometimes I forget that the internet is occupied by children... Yes, CAB should seize the house and Batman should teach the Murrays a lesson...

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955494#Comment_120955494

Firstly I dont have anger or resentment towards anyone, other than possibly towards those who want to destroy a house to punish these people. I am all for punishing them, but destroying a house "on principle" seems like an asinine decision to me.

Of course 1 house isnt going to solve a crisis, but that attitude would have you do nothing other than build 500K houses. Every single house helps, hence why there is a 50K grant to bring a derelict building back to the market.

There is no lawlessness, the owners are going to be punished for what they have done, knocking the house doesnt add anything to the punishement, you simple take the house away from them and fine them under the maximum extent of the law, up to an including prison time.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955462#Comment_120955462

Legally the couple own the land the house is built on so its not as easy as just letting repurposing it or giving it to someone else. The house is illegal but the land is legal.

It may be a waste to knock it but the law has to be enforced - they built a huge huge huge house without planning permission, a house way bigger than even they had applied for permission for and was turned down. They really stuck two fingers up at the planning system. If they are allowed continue to live there I can see other people building houses without planning permission also - why would anyone bother applying for planning permission if thats allowed. Meath county council have to do the right thing here and knock it. Lets face it I dont think this couple will be homeless as a result - they have money.

The media piece last week done nothing to change my view on them. They didnt give any good reason why they built such a huge house at all. If they had built the smaller dormer house that they had applied for I may have had some sympathy for them - but they didnt do that - they built a house way bigger which was shockingly stupid and shows really the type of people they are. They have got to raise their children there and they should be happy that they got as long as they did out of it.

Knock it now Meath CC or your planning permission system is a joke.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955511#Comment_120955511

Tell me you don't understand how CAB works without telling me you don't understand how CAB works.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955462#Comment_120955462

Sigh. So, what would you suggest we do with it? Give it to a homeless family? How will they access the house given that it is ~10km from Navan? How will they manage to maintain the place, heat it, etc?

You are suggesting repurposing a massive house effectively in the middle of nowhere in terms of trying to house a family in need. It's a daft suggestion simply because "housing crisis".

This house also should not be there - the planning authorityes have said so and the courts have said so. There were reasons [provided originally why it should not be there and these reasons still stand. For some to shout "housing crisis" is a bllshit excuse simply because you expect people to bow down and not challenge it.

More importantly, they would be most likely protected by our constitution from having the house taken from them by the state simply for having no planning permission. No such protection exists when the current laws around planning enforcement are followed.

Lastly, who would own the land under your suggestion?

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955519#Comment_120955519

I would have no intention of letting them live there, ever. That is not up for debate at all.

I also don't care if this couple ends up homeless as a result of their actions.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955525#Comment_120955525

If the house was built illegally then it can be sized by CAB.

The purpose of CAB is to prevent people from benefiting from illegal activities. We may only hear about their efforts around crime lords but they are equally able to go after white collar criminals.

For some reason you seem to think that I am defending these people and using the housing crisis to do so. I would want to see these people in jail.

I am "defending" the house.

Hell you could turn it into a B&B and stick 10 refugees into it if yow wanted to, you don't have to turn it over to 1 single family.

Bluefoam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955539#Comment_120955539

So are we proposing to divert CAB from dealing with the Kinehans, crack dealers and the columbian drug cartels to managing local planning disputes? Where does Batman come into this?

the.red.baron

surely there is one hell of a legal bill outstanding on this? more than the cost of the house and land

on the CAB front, its the proceeds of crime, its fairly clear this house doesn't fall under its remit

pat_sconce

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120954812#Comment_120954812

The last person who got a custodial sentence for non payment of a court imposed fine for not having a TV license was in 2014. To actually get a custodial sentence you need to make an extreme effort not to engage whatsoever.

The 2016 Fines (Payment and Recovery) Act came into force in January 2016 and allows attachment to earnings and community service options when a fine is not paid. Since then not one person has been taken into custody for non payment of a fine. The result also means than non payment has gone from 10,000 a year to over 30,000 a year primarily because attachment cannot be made to social welfare payments.

Shoog

CAB is not applicable since no organised crime was committed. This is a simple planning enforcement situation. For historic reasons councils have been reluctant to pursue enforcement on breaches of planning law, but to not do so in this case brings the whole planning system into disrepute.

If this had have happened in the UK with roughly the same planning laws it would have been knocked within the year.

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955636#Comment_120955636

I have seen quite a few houses pulled down in other parts of the country, this is ridiculous

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955525#Comment_120955525

The key word in CAB is criminal. There is nothing criminal about building a house without planning permission.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955636#Comment_120955636

You think? the reality says otherwise. It took the council 9 years in probably the most famous case of unplanned building.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/world-news/farmer-who-built-castle-hidden-7658785

DownByTheGarden

I just point to this thread when people get worried about building a garden cabin for their children to live in :)

Penn

Exactly. The only way CAB would be able to even think about taking ownership of the house would be if the house construction was funded by illegal/criminal activity.

The CAB can't take full ownership of someone's car if they caught the owner speeding.

The penalties for unauthorised development are already laid out in law. Neither CAB nor Meath CC can just decide to take ownership of the house (irrespective of the fact that it still wouldn't give them ownership of the site anyway, which would open up another legal quagmire of hassle).

The final penalty, particularly when retention, appeals and all other avenues of remediation/fines have been considered, is demolition.

Gusser09

Madness. So housing crisis eh? **** that.

I'll purchase an acre in the arse hole of nowhere with no hope of getting planning and throw up a 20 story block of flats and sell them. Sure we are in a housing crisis so thats the course of action i should take.

There was no housing crisis when they built the mansion. They could have bought an already built house anywhere in the locality. A 588sqm house is a status symbol. Ironically they ended up on skidrow during the crash. Another tradesman who had great ideas about himself eh.

As ive said they will still be in it in 10 years. In fact if i were them i would rent it out and give the tenant a 10 year lease. Make some money out of it and an eviction would be difficult to see happening. Anyone who is struggling to get PP in Meath ahould fire ahead and build now citing this case. Madness what is going on.