MF 4255 - Steering Problem ?

jimmy G M

Anyone with a MF 4200 series tractor encounter issues like this?

We have a 2002 4255 here with around 4600 hours on it and a loader. The last 18 months or so the steering is becoming increasingly hard to turn esp with a bale on the loader.

At first it only used to happen after a few hours work bringing in round bales when the oil would be hot, now its hard to turn the steering wheel even if no bale on loader and you need to rev the tractor a bit to make it easier to turn.
The rear lift seems to be working away - no bother lifting a fusion bale at the back, loader working fine also

I drained all the back end oil and cleaned out all 3 wire filters last week (they were clean actually) but it has made no difference.

Any thought / advice?

Is the lift pump the issue as I think this powers the steering also?

Thx.

Have you tried greasing the king pins?


(Also.do centre pivot aswell)

jimmy G M

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Have you tried greasing the king pins?


(Also.do centre pivot aswell)

Yes everything is greased regularly, last done before start of bale season.... not a greasing issue.

jimmy G M

jimmy G M wrote: »

Yes everything is greased regularly, last done before start of bale season.... not a greasing issue.

Id say pull off steering ram and get set of seals etc....cheaper than a hyd pump!


Its v.unlikely to be orbital unit,i can only think of one instance i heard of where someone changed orbital unit and it fixed steering issue





If you jack it off ground....will it steer perfect?

minerleague

Deleted User wrote: »

Id say pull off steering ram and get set of seals etc....cheaper than a hyd pump!


Its v.unlikely to be orbital unit,i can only think of one instance i heard of where someone changed orbital unit and it fixed steering issue





If you jack it off ground....will it steer perfect?

Orbital unit had to be done on 87 mf390 here, sounds like OP, loader and rear hydraulics were working fine

jimmy G M

Deleted User wrote: »

Id say pull off steering ram and get set of seals etc....cheaper than a hyd pump!


Its v.unlikely to be orbital unit,i can only think of one instance i heard of where someone changed orbital unit and it fixed steering issue

Ok, thx, I find it hard to think that it's a seal in the steering ram issue. There is no sense from the steering wheel that oil is leaking inside the ram when you turn the steering wheel ie turning the steering wheel but the front wheels do not turn.

Its just that the steering wheel is hard to turn at lower engine revs. When you rev it up it turns ok. The problem is much worse when there is a bale on the loader.

There is loads of oil in the system.

jimmy G M

minerleague wrote: »

Orbital unit had to be done on 87 mf390 here, sounds like OP, loader and rear hydraulics were working fine

How much does one of those cost?

patsy_mccabe

Neighbour here had the same problem with his 4235. The pump was replaced and the back end lift head (I think it's called) and it sorted the steering. I don't know if there was internal leaking at the back or the pump going poor, or both together was the cause.

minerleague

jimmy G M wrote: »

How much does one of those cost?

Sorry, a few years ago now, cant remember exactly ( was paying for a couple of jobs at the time ) but there was a lot of ripping to be done to get at it
Mechanic first changed auxillary pump ( loader and steering ) even though i told him loader was fine

minerleague

minerleague wrote: »

Sorry, a few years ago now, cant remember exactly ( was paying for a couple of jobs at the time ) but there was a lot of ripping to be done to get at it
Mechanic first changed auxillary pump ( loader and steering ) even though i told him loader was fine

was a while ago but just remembered i thought steering was slightly worse in one direction than the other at the time, but bad in both if you follow :rolleyes:

blackbox

minerleague wrote: »

was a while ago but just remembered i thought steering was slightly worse in one direction than the other at the time, but bad in both if you follow :rolleyes:

You need to find a mechanic who will do a proper diagnosis by checking pressures etc. and not one who just replaces (expensive) parts to see if it works .

jimmy G M

blackbox wrote: »

You need to find a mechanic who will do a proper diagnosis by checking pressures etc. and not one who just replaces (expensive) parts to see if it works .

Yeah, there is some kind of pressure test you can do on the system by opening pipes at the steering ram. Was looking it up last night in a maintenance manual.

patsy_mccabe

The correct way to do it, is get your hands on the hydraulic schematic. You will see then how the steering is supplied with oil, which pumps, lines etc.
I worked on industrial hydraulics for years and that has always been the starting point.

jimmy G M

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

The correct way to do it, is get your hands on the hydraulic schematic. You will see then how the steering is supplied with oil, which pumps, lines etc.
I worked on industrial hydraulics for years and that has always been the starting point.

Good man Patsy.. Do you fancy a trip up to Galway some evening? :rolleyes:

Gods Gift

Did you try, and it’s a long shot but trading it in for a tractor. Like a deere.

patsy_mccabe

jimmy G M wrote: »

Good man Patsy.. Do you fancy a trip up to Galway some evening? :rolleyes:

No, I know enough to stay away from it. Mind you I got my neighbours working early on when it started acting up. I just played around with the tipper/service valves at the back. There was an air lock there after he let the oil run low. His cost €2.5K to sort, by the way.

minerleague

blackbox wrote: »

You need to find a mechanic who will do a proper diagnosis by checking pressures etc. and not one who just replaces (expensive) parts to see if it works .

Your right there ( wasnt paid for pump anyway cause didnt fix problem) but its hard enough find mechanic to work on older gear nowadays

emaherx

Gods Gift wrote: »

Did you try, and it’s a long shot but trading it in for a tractor. Like a deere.

Yea, I here there is never any expensive repairs required with a Deere. :rolleyes:

Tileman

blackbox wrote: »

You need to find a mechanic who will do a proper diagnosis by checking pressures etc. and not one who just replaces (expensive) parts to see if it works .

Yea agree fully and him charging each time learning on the job

jimmy G M

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

No, I know enough to stay away from it. Mind you I got my neighbours working early on when it started acting up. I just played around with the tipper/service valves at the back. There was an air lock there after he let the oil run low. His cost €2.5K to sort, by the way.

Feck, I don't fancy that repair bill. I think a diagnostic test is first step anyway. Bales pretty much done apart from 5 acres coming up at the weekend hopefully, so will have time to park it up and look at it after that. Thx.

jimmy G M

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Neighbour here had the same problem with his 4235. The pump was replaced and the back end lift head (I think it's called) and it sorted the steering. I don't know if there was internal leaking at the back or the pump going poor, or both together was the cause.

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

No, I know enough to stay away from it. Mind you I got my neighbours working early on when it started acting up. I just played around with the tipper/service valves at the back. There was an air lock there after he let the oil run low. His cost €2.5K to sort, by the way.

Patsy when you say the pump, do you mean the steering orbital pump or the lift pump in the backend. Both these pumps would be costing around €400 each plus fitting after that according to a search last night. A lot less work with the orbital pump as it is located at the bottom of the steering column. .

patsy_mccabe

jimmy G M wrote: »

Patsy when you say the pump, do you mean the steering orbital pump or the lift pump in the backend. Both these pumps would be costing around €400 each plus fitting after that according to a search last night. A lot less work with the orbital pump as it is located at the bottom of the steering column. .

The Orbital Unit isn't a pump. It is supplied by pressure from a seperate pump. I don't know which pump. You could trace the piping yourself. (In my old David Brown the steering pump is just for the steering).

mad-for-tar

Couple of pics attached that might help. Steering and low pressure circuits are fed off the front part of the tandem pump assembly which you can see behind the right hand wheel. Low presure circuits include the diff lock, 4wd, PTO and speedshift in the case of this diagram. Powershuttle is a variation of this.

Test for steering circuit attached, circuit is limited to 140bar which is controlled by a relief valve in the steering hand pump (orbital unit). Don't try put a gauge in the end of the supply pipe to test as it will dead head and with no relief valve will damage the pump. There is a blanking plug on the T piece above the pump, with correct fittings youd get a gauge onto it to test the pressure at least, which should be 140 bar with steering at full lock. What it wont do is test the flow, which would have to be done with flow meter and setup as per one of the pics below.

It is also possible you have leakage in the steering cylinder, it wont leak externally but it can pass oil from one side to the other. What you could do to test that theory is whichever side you turn it to test, you can remove the hose off the non pressured side of the cylinder and stick hose into a bucket to catch any residual oil. If you start getting oil weeping out or coming out quickly of the cylinder port when steering held on full lock with pressure in the opposite side, the seals are leaking in the cylinder internally. This is a good quick test that can be done to rule that out. if it shows up nothing, pump is the next thing I'd go after. Rear axle oil has to be drained to remove it, it's chain driven from the transmission.

Tandem Pump.JPG

Hyd circuit 1.JPG

Steering Test.JPG

patsy_mccabe

That's what you need alright. Is that the 4200 series Workshop Manual?
So is that double tandem hydraulic pump the only hydraulic pump on the tractor?

jimmy G M

Fair play Mad For Tar, that's great info. :cool:

mad-for-tar

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

That's what you need alright. Is that the 4200 series Workshop Manual?
So is that double tandem hydraulic pump the only hydraulic pump on the tractor?

Sort of. Was a training manual for the 4200 series I got when I worked at my local now non existent MF dealer 20 years ago, not long after launch of powershuttle models. Has the basics in it but doesn’t cover everything.

No, you have the main scotch yoke type pump inside the rear axle section, same as what most of the others of that vintage have. That normally does lift and hydraulics. Tandem pump rear section is the auxiliary pump for when you flip the lever in the cab to combine pumps and increase output using the valve on the top of the lift cover. Front section is the steering and low pressure services. On 300 series this pump assembly is engine mounted.

patsy_mccabe

I downloaded the 4200 Series Service Manual from here before;

https://www.slideshare.net/jksmemfmd/massey-ferguson-mf-4245-tractor-service-repair-manual

I tried to upload the *.pdf file but can't do it.

White Clover

Any progress on this, Jimmy?

jimmy G M

White Clover wrote: »

Any progress on this, Jimmy?

Not yet, hoping to get to it later on this week. Ill post outcome here. It might be of some use to someone in the future.

jimmy G M

Finally got around to sorting this problem last week.

I took a calculated gamble on it being the tandem auxiliary pump mounted under the rear wheel as if I went to a garage for diagnosis, chances are I'd end up leaving the tractor there for repair and a large bill.

So I took off the tractor wheel, and propped safely etc, drained all the oil from the back end (aprox 35 L) then 2 bolts and 2 pipes later pump was out, around 60 mins work.

I had gotten a quote for a replacement Bosch pump at aprox €800, and an after market replacement at aprox €450. I phoned O Meara Pumps in Longford, who specialise in repairing pumps for diggers end heavy plant. They were able to source a pump for €365, so I ordered off them.

2 days later , father collected new pump and I put it in that eve. Steering working perfectly now, so happy days.

Its possible that this is something that needs to be replaced on these tractors from time to time as the one I took off was not an original Bosch pump either, so this is the 3rd pump on it. Now I might have gone for an original Bosch pump, but I think we will be trading this tractor in the next 18 months, so the €500 difference is better in my pocket.

Anyway, thx everyone for yer input, esp to the lads who sent me on the MF workshop manual. Hopefully this thread is of some use to someone again in the future...

minerleague

jimmy G M wrote: »

Finally got around to sorting this problem last week.

I took a calculated gamble on it being the tandem auxiliary pump mounted under the rear wheel as if I went to a garage for diagnosis, chances are I'd end up leaving the tractor there for repair and a large bill.

So I took off the tractor wheel, and propped safely etc, drained all the oil from the back end (aprox 35 L) then 2 bolts and 2 pipes later pump was out, around 60 mins work.

I had gotten a quote for a replacement Bosch pump at aprox €800, and an after market replacement at aprox €450. I phoned O Meara Pumps in Longford, who specialise in repairing pumps for diggers end heavy plant. They were able to source a pump for €365, so I ordered off them.

2 days later , father collected new pump and I put it in that eve. Steering working perfectly now, so happy days.

Its possible that this is something that needs to be replaced on these tractors from time to time as the one I took off was not an original Bosch pump either, so this is the 3rd pump on it. Now I might have gone for an original Bosch pump, but I think we will be trading this tractor in the next 18 months, so the €500 difference is better in my pocket.

Anyway, thx everyone for yer input, esp to the lads who sent me on the MF workshop manual. Hopefully this thread is of some use to someone again in the future...

glad you got sorted, Massey reputation suffered a lot due to poor reliability around that time. 3 pumps ( if your right) sounds like a lot in 18 years? would that point to something causing issue?

patsy_mccabe

Just to be clear, when these pumps go, what exactly does that mean? A lot of pumps can be repaired with a seal kit. I've done those repairs myself.

I'd there's metal wear damage, then that's another issue.

jimmy G M

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Just to be clear, when these pumps go, what exactly does that mean? A lot of pumps can be repaired with a seal kit. I've done those repairs myself.

I'd there's metal wear damage, then that's another issue.

Yeah, I had considered that it might be repairable, that's why I rang O Meara Pumps as they repair & refurb pumps. When I asked about a repair they said that with parts & labour required I would be as well on buying the new one.... esp as no guarantee that pump could be repaired until it was split.

TBH I dont think I would be up to replacing seals in a pump myself, I wouldnt have the expertise or tools to do it.

12 mth guarantee with new pump also so am happy enough.

jimmy G M

minerleague wrote: »

glad you got sorted, Massey reputation suffered a lot due to poor reliability around that time. 3 pumps ( if your right) sounds like a lot in 18 years? would that point to something causing issue?

I've no idea if there is an underlying problem.... I doubt it.... everything seems to be working fine..... tractor only does maybe 250 hours pa, 50% of that would be loader work...

2 pumps in 18 yrs, so average lifespan of 9 years. At this rate tractor will be 27 years old before next pump is needed...

divillybit

@jimmy G M just wondering do you still have your Mf4255 or did you trade it in? I've an mf 4200 series tractor and it's developed a desperate whine in the back end. I think the auxiliary pump got hot at a stage and it's done for but the whine is coming from the pump which is driven by a chain from the transmission. I think the oil cooler may need to be cleaned out. The pump gets hot quickly even if the tractor is started and ticking over. Auxiliary pump is done for anyway.

jimmy G M

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121595218#Comment_121595218

Still have it here, working away the finest. Tractor is in good condition and no issues since this pump was replaced. Put 2 new front tyres on it last November so we will prob keep for another while. 5,130 hours on it, hard to justify spending €15k or more on a n upgrade with possibly more hours on it that the one we have currently.

To be clear the pump I replaced was the tandem pump bolted onto the tractor chassis under the right rear wheel. It looks a bit like and is aprox the same size as a starter motor, but is a bit more rectagonal in shape. There is a gear/cog that connects into the tractors transmission and this powers the pump. Is this what you mean by being driven by a chain from the transmission?

Does the whine noise get worse when you are turning the front wheels? Do the front wheels turn easily?

Drain the oil from the back end and clean all 3 wire filters while you are at it. Ensure tractor is well supported when the rear wheel is off. See my previous post from August 2020.

divillybit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121596347#Comment_121596347

Thanks for the reply @jimmy G M

We replaced that tandem pump not long ago but the transmission has developed a desperate whine. The pump seems to be shot, and I'd say it's hard turned. I ve not ran the tractor lately as I'm weighing up what could be wrong, but i think the strainer blocked from metal residue from the old pump and starved the pump of oil and it cavitated. Never thought to try flush the back end of the tractor. The oil cooler could be not working right too.

Donald Trump

Are you putting the right oil in it?

jimmy G M

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121597969#Comment_121597969

Sounds like you have pretty major issues there. Above my pay grade unfortunately. You need to get a mechanic who knows what he is at to look at it. From what you are saying you think it is the main lift pump? Or is it gearbox/drive related, or both?. Do I recall you asking a question before about a whine in reverse or was that some other poster.

patsy_mccabe

I know someone with a 4235 that let the oil go low in the backend. He had to get a whole new backend on it.

limo_100

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121602077#Comment_121602077

Jesus that must have being some bill

divillybit

I was just reading up on a farming forum and poster said he had a similar issue and a reply he got was to add a litre of wet brake additive to the transmission oil. I'm thinking the brakes are the problem and another poster saying a excessive metal filings in the transmission oil is a sure sign the brakes need replacing. The brakes aren't too bad on the tractor but that might not mean they still don't need to be replaced.

White Clover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612021#Comment_121612021

Do you have any history of the tractor Divilly?

divillybit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612192#Comment_121612192

Ah not really. Never heard of a wet brake additive being added to the transmission oil. Just learning as I'm going here

White Clover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612911#Comment_121612911

The reason I asked was to see if you knew what oil was put in the back end the last time it was changed. The likes of 10W30 and 10W40 have that anti squawk additive in it to prevent the brakes screeching.

I had a tractor previously that developed a screech in the Breaks. Mechanic said most likely brake disc's worn which it was following investigation.

divillybit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121613181#Comment_121613181

Thanks for the reply @White Clover

Yea I was buying 5 gallon drums of 10w 40 for it, at 70 - 75 euro each. I didn't think the worn brakes could or would contaminate the back end oil so much.