Hagia Sophia Istanbul turned back into a Mosque

smurfjed

The Turkish courts have allowed the government to turn Hagia Sophia back into a mosque. It overturned a previous 1934 government decision to turn the amazing building into a museum to be equally shared between Moslems and Christians.

For it to be a functioning mosque, some of the ancient Christian wall paintings will have to be removed or painted over again.

When will this madness end?

o1s1n

smurfjed wrote: »

The Turkish courts have allowed the government to turn Hagia Sophia back into a mosque. It overturned a previous 1934 government decision to turn the amazing building into a museum to be equally shared between Moslems and Christians.

For it to be a functioning mosque, some of the ancient Christian wall paintings will have to be removed or painted over again.

When will this madness end?

Have you got a link to paintings and artwork potentially being destroyed? I can't seem to find anything about it online.

smurfjed

It’s an opinion based on the fact that they have spent years painstakingly removing layers of paint that were hiding Christian paintings when it previously was used as a Mosque. So at least to me, it stands to reason that they shall remove them again.

biko

o1s1n wrote: »

Have you got a link to paintings and artwork potentially being destroyed? I can't seem to find anything about it online.

I think these could be the ones referred to
https://istanbulclues.com/hagia-sophia-mosaics/
https://www.newsweek.com/2015/06/12/battle-over-hagia-sophia-338091.html

Chris_Heilong

Will they also remove the ladder that has been there for hundreds of years and no one was to touch? I dont think it is a step in the right direction but Muslim majority country will always do things that in the end favor themselves.

McDermotX

Funny coincidence

Was only looking at an ep of that God program Morgan Freeman presents last night and there was a section where one of his lackeys visits the Hagia Sophia.
Beautiful building, rich history and frankly, found its place as a unique museum.

Gonna end in trouble if there are any alterations, and there will always be some lobby looking to reclaim at the expense of others despite public claims of leaving it an open, visitor friendly place of worship. Political motivation from Erdogan, nothing more than that.

a very cool kid

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Will they also remove the ladder that has been there for hundreds of years and no one was to touch? I dont think it is a step in the right direction but Muslim majority country will always do things that in the end favor themselves.

That's in Jerusalem I think.

ILoveYourVibes

a very cool kid wrote: »

That's in Jerusalem I think.

It is .in the church of the Holy Scepulchre.do you know why it can't be moved? Its the result of an agreement called 'The Status Quo'.

The care over the church is shared by no less than six denominations. The primary custodians are the Greek Orthodox, Armenian Apostolic and Roman Catholic Church, with lesser duties shared by Coptic, Ethiopian and Syriac Orthodox churches.

They all cannot agree as to who owns it.

Because they have to get 5 christian groups to agree for it to be moved ...its a symbol of christian division.

Also certain people try grabbing it in the name of one group sometimes ...

They keep having fights about it ..some of them get violent..

Its like MONTY PYTHON! :pac:

theological

It's a pretty disappointing decision. I was inside when I went to Istanbul last spring. It's probably one of the more impressive places in the city precisely because you can see both the Christian and the Islamic influences in the museum.

When it is converted back into a mosque they will have to remove the Christian materials from there. Having nosed into the other mosques in the city such as the Suleymaniye Mosque and the Blue Mosque the Haggia Sophia is much more interesting purely because they have no inscriptions in the mosques apart from the Arabic word for Allah everywhere and abstract shapes. Pictures and depictions are not permissible in Islam, this is why they will be painted over.

I think its probably yet another move by Erdogan to undermine the secular nature of the Turkish state.

biko

Make Istanbul Constantinople again.

JJayoo

Oh boo hoo one less tourist attraction, how will society cope

biko

I have visited Istanbul in the past, and tbh I'd visit it again even if this changed.
The Grand Bazaar is amazing.
I just hope they only cover the Christian relics and don't destroy them.


If you go, try the Turkish pizza Lahmacun
Don't get the kebab, it is very different from our version.

Brian Hartman

biko wrote: »

Make Istanbul Constantinople again.

Deus Vult!

Brian Hartman

biko wrote: »

I have visited Istanbul in the past, and tbh I'd visit it again even if this changed.
The Grand Bazaar is amazing.
I just hope they only cover the Christian relics and don't destroy them.


If you go, try the Turkish pizza Lahmacun
Don't get the kebab, it is very different from our version.

Yes it is an amazing city. But sad to see Turkey succumb to Islamists.

nofiller69

Brian Hartman wrote: »

Yes it is an amazing city. But sad to see Turkey succumb to Islamists.

That happened in 1453 after the Eastern Roman Empire was betrayed by mainland Europeans. Turkey has been Muslim since.

Brian Hartman

nofiller69 wrote: »

That happened in 1453 after the Eastern Roman Empire was betrayed by mainland Europeans. Turkey has been Muslim since.

It has been a secular country since the end of WWI

nofiller69

Brian Hartman wrote: »

It has been a secular country since the end of WWI

Meh secularism on paper has more to do with human rights and preventing discrimination through legislation and courts.

The reality is 98-99% of Turks are muslim.

Brian Hartman

nofiller69 wrote: »

Meh secularism on paper has more to do with human rights and preventing discrimination through legislation and courts.

The reality is 98-99% of Turks are muslim.

You need to read about Ataturk and the reforms he brought in.

nofiller69

Brian Hartman wrote: »

You need to read about Ataturk and the reforms he brought in.

You need to come back to reality.

99% Muslim since the 1500s.

Brian Hartman

nofiller69 wrote: »

You need to come back to reality.

99% Muslim since the 1500s.

You need to read a book and understand how the ruins of the Ottoman Empire become the Turkish republic.

nofiller69

Brian Hartman wrote: »

You need to read a book and understand how the ruins of the Ottoman Empire become the Turkish republic.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

98-99% of Turks are registered as muslim in 2020.

None of that Ataturk, Turkish republic reform crap actually means anything in reality.

Secularisation of Turkey is about centralizing government, removing state/church duopoly and giving removing legislated bias against other religions.

Come back to reality mate.

biko

Do walk across the bridge to the eastern side, it's not as touristy (yes, I understand the irony in guiding tourists to un-touristy areas).

When my female friends walked alone they noticed the locals can be very "forward".

riffmongous

Brian Hartman wrote: »

Deus Vult!

Fairly bad taste on the 25th anniversary of Srebenica

Mr. Karate

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Will they also remove the ladder that has been there for hundreds of years and no one was to touch? I dont think it is a step in the right direction but Muslim majority country will always do things that in the end favor themselves.

Muslims are all about Minority rights when they're the minority. Not so much when they're the majority.

Quantum Erasure

They should be able to board up the pictures rather than paint over them, whether they will or not is another question

steddyeddy

biko wrote: »

Do walk across the bride to the eastern side, it's not as touristy (yes, I understand the irony in guiding tourists to un-touristy areas).

When my female friends walked alone they noticed the locals can be very "forward".

They're very brave to even walk alone in that area B.

biko

Just like the Kaaba, the Hagia Sofia belonged to another religion but is now used by Islam.

No church is safe - a Christian association called Friends of the Protestant Church in Berlin published a report on the conversion of ten churches in Germany into mosques 2019. It said the phenomenon was not new but it was repeated and deliberate. SRC

Brian Hartman

steddyeddy wrote: »

They're very brave to even walk alone in that area B.

The same can be said about Malmo, Paris, Oslo, Cologne and many other 'diverse' places in Europe.

ohnonotgmail

biko wrote: »

Just like the Kaaba, the Hagia Sofia belonged to another religion but is now used by Islam.

No church is safe - a Christian association called Friends of the Protestant Church in Berlin published a report on the conversion of ten churches in Germany into mosques 2019. It said the phenomenon was not new but it was repeated and deliberate. SRC

perhaps those friends of the protestant church should have bought the churches for themselves if they are so worried? though presumably they were actually ex-churches at the time they were bought so just buildings that no longer had any religious significance.

suicide_circus

Build a wall

riffmongous

biko wrote: »

Just like the Kaaba, the Hagia Sofia belonged to another religion but is now used by Islam.

No church is safe - a Christian association called Friends of the Protestant Church in Berlin published a report on the conversion of ten churches in Germany into mosques 2019. It said the phenomenon was not new but it was repeated and deliberate. SRC

At the end of 2018, the Nur Mosque was inaugurated in Hamburg after a Muslim investor bought a church and donated it to the Islamic centre of the city. Similar actions were carried out in the Netherlands, Britain and France. The most prominent examples of the actions were the openings of Al Fateh Mosque in Amsterdam, the Sultan Ayoub Mosque and the Osman Ghazi Mosque in the Netherlands. In France, the Dominican Church in Lille and the Saint Joseph Church in Paris have been turned into mosques.

Maybe the ones that don't put themselves up for sale will be safe :rolleyes:

edit: ohnonotgmail got there first

suicide_circus

biko wrote: »

Just like the Kaaba, the Hagia Sofia belonged to another religion but is now used by Islam.

No church is safe - a Christian association called Friends of the Protestant Church in Berlin published a report on the conversion of ten churches in Germany into mosques 2019. It said the phenomenon was not new but it was repeated and deliberate. SRC

I suppose thats just a function of the decline of traditional christianity and the rise of Islam in Europe, if that concerns you, i'm afraid you're literally Hitler.

beggars_bush

biko wrote: »

Make Istanbul Constantinople again.

https://youtu.be/20uXjti9h4I

Hotblack Desiato

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Will they also remove the ladder that has been there for hundreds of years and no one was to touch? I dont think it is a step in the right direction but Muslim majority country will always do things that in the end favor themselves.

Turkey is a muslim majority country yes, but the modern state (succeeding the Ottoman Empire) founded by Ataturk was always intended to be a secular state i.e. everyone has freedom of worship and the government does not promote a particular religion.

Now Erdogan is busy reversing all that and taking his country further and further back into the dark ages.

It didn't seem too fanciful about 20 years ago that Turkey might eventually join the EU, it is impossible now and they are rapidly reversing away from civilised democratic norms.

Mr. Karate wrote: »

Muslims are all about Minority rights when they're the minority. Not so much when they're the majority.

Catholic church is all for a secular state in countries where it's a minority, not so much in the countries where it's a majority, they want to run the show for catholics and non-catholics alike...

biko wrote: »

Just like the Kaaba, the Hagia Sofia belonged to another religion but is now used by Islam.

There's a cathedral in Cordoba in Spain which used to be a mosque.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque–Cathedral_of_Córdoba

No church is safe - a Christian association called Friends of the Protestant Church in Berlin published a report on the conversion of ten churches in Germany into mosques 2019. It said the phenomenon was not new but it was repeated and deliberate. SRC

So what. We have plenty of disused Protestant churches here converted into offices, apartments etc.

The mosque on South Circular Road in Dublin used to be a Protestant church. It's not like it was seized :rolleyes: it was sold.

The RCC seems determined to hang onto its underused properties at all costs - for now, anyway.

riclad

This was done because the ruling party wants to appeal to hard-line Muslims.
This is no ordinary Church its a very large building 100 s of years old. It's was built as a Christian church . Right now it's a museum, visited by Christians and Muslims.
Turkey used to be more secular country its being pushed further to a Muslim society by the government in order to get more votes.
It's a insult to Christians and non Muslims in Turkey.
Many church's in Ireland and the UK are closed and sold as they no longer have people going to church in the no needed
This is different its government action to
take over a building that is symbolic and was built by Christians .
It's like saying there's nothing we cannot do
to erase any symbol of Christian art or place that is open to anyone of any religion and make it into a mosque.
This would be like the Irish government selling the gpo and allowing it to be turned into a British
Supermarket.
It's not as if there's not a lot of mosques all over Turkey.
The present Turkish government is not noted for its respect for human rights.
As in many country's Christians are not being forced to leave or arrested but they don't recieve any official support because they are a minority.

WrenBoy

This wouldn't be such a big deal if it were becoming a Jewish Synagogue or Buddhist temple but a supposed dominance of islam in a country spells bad news for the other religions. Teachings in Islam teach the subjugation of other religions, this instruction is not present in the Jewish and Christian faiths.

ohnonotgmail

WrenBoy wrote: »

This wouldn't be such a big deal if it were becoming a Jewish Synagogue or Buddhist temple but a supposed dominance of islam in a country spells bad news for the other religions. Teachings in Islam teach the subjugation of other religions, this instruction is not present in the Jewish and Christian faiths.

islam is already the dominant faith in turkey

Yurt2

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

islam is already the dominant faith in turkey

Wow. Thanks for the knowledge drop

ohnonotgmail

Yurt! wrote: »

Wow. Thanks for the knowledge drop

it is a bit silly to be complaining about increased islamic unfluence in a country that is already 99% muslim. especially concerning a building that was a mosque for 500 years up until only 85 years ago.

Yurt2

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

it is a bit silly to be complaining about increased islamic unfluence in a country that is already 99% muslim. especially concerning a building that was a mosque for 500 years up until only 85 years ago.

With apologies, but only someone with the most simplistic understanding of the relationship between the modern Turkish state and Islam would come up with the above post and shrug their shoulders. The dial has moved and it's not without huge controversies within and without Turkey and the region over the past couple of decades.

biko

Atatürk that founded modern Turkey, was secular.
Turkey is still a secular country (officially).

Since Erdoğan's Islamist-rooted "Justice and Development Party" (AKP) came into power in 2002 it's been downhill.

Turkey’s president has said he wants to create a “pious generation” to change the nation.
So the government is pouring money into schools that teach Islamic values.

Atatürk made Turkey modern, Erdogan wants to unmodernise it.

ohnonotgmail

biko wrote: »

Atatürk that founded modern Turkey, was secular.
Turkey is still a secular country (officially).

Since Erdoğan's Islamist-rooted "Justice and Development Party" (AKP) came into power in 2002 it's been downhill.

Turkey’s president has said he wants to create a “pious generation” to change the nation.
So the government is pouring money into schools that teach Islamic values.

Atatürk made Turkey modern, Erdogan wants to unmodernise it.

in the normal course of events the military would stage a coup and push the country back towards secularism. that failed miserably the last time they tried it but i wouldn't bet against them trying again.

ohnonotgmail

Yurt! wrote: »

With apologies, but only someone with the most simplistic understanding of the relationship between the modern Turkish state and Islam would come up with the above post and shrug their shoulders. The dial has moved and it's not without huge controversies within and without Turkey and the region over the past couple of decades.

with apologies, only somebody distracted by bright shiny things would be overly concerned by one building. Edrogan has been running a mosque building programme for a number of years now. Nobody outside turkey has given a monkeys about that but suddenly get aroused because it is the only building in turkey that they can name.

biko

Pope Francis is the latest religious leader to condemn Turkey’s decision to convert Hagia Sophia into a mosque.

“My thoughts go to Istanbul. I think of Hagia Sophia and I am very saddened,” he said during his weekly blessing in St. Peter’s Square.

https://greekcitytimes.com/2020/07/13/pope-francis-i-think-of-hagia-sophia-and-i-am-very-saddened/

WrenBoy

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

with apologies, only somebody distracted by bright shiny things would be overly concerned by one building. Edrogan has been running a mosque building programme for a number of years now. Nobody outside turkey has given a monkeys about that but suddenly get aroused because it is the only building in turkey that they can name.

Its a massive symbolic statement.

ohnonotgmail

WrenBoy wrote: »

Its a massive symbolic statement.

thank you for repeating my point for me.

WrenBoy

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

thank you for repeating my point for me.

:rolleyes: continuing your stellar level of discourse I see.

donaghs

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Turkey is a muslim majority country yes, but the modern state (succeeding the Ottoman Empire) founded by Ataturk was always intended to be a secular state i.e. everyone has freedom of worship and the government does not promote a particular religion.

Now Erdogan is busy reversing all that and taking his country further and further back into the dark ages.

It didn't seem too fanciful about 20 years ago that Turkey might eventually join the EU, it is impossible now and they are rapidly reversing away from civilised democratic norms.

Agree. And its four years since Erdogan crushed that bizarre (fake?) coup. Although the coup was more of an internal Islamist civil war, the secularists became the main target of the post-coup revenge.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Catholic church is all for a secular state in countries where it's a minority, not so much in the countries where it's a majority, they want to run the show for catholics and non-catholics alike...

In the past sure, hardly nowadays? Trying to think of what countries nowadays the Catholics Church imposing their will on everyone? In Poland, it seems to be the Catholic politicians, not the actual church.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

There's a cathedral in Cordoba in Spain which used to be a mosque.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque–Cathedral_of_Córdoba

And it was a Church before it was a mosque. Just saying.

mossie

donaghs wrote: »

Agree. And its four years since Erdogan crushed that bizarre (fake?) coup. Although the coup was more of an internal Islamist civil war, the secularists became the main target of the post-coup revenge.


In the past sure, hardly nowadays? Trying to think of what countries nowadays the Catholics Church imposing their will on everyone? In Poland, it seems to be the Catholic politicians, not the actual church.



And it was a Church before it was a mosque. Just saying.

There may or may not have been a church on the site pre the Moors, but the current building was never a church before becoming a mosque. The present church was built in the middle of the mosque after the reconquest of Spain by the Christians. It's an incredible building well worth a visit.

Hotblack Desiato

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

it is a bit silly to be complaining about increased islamic unfluence in a country that is already 99% muslim. especially concerning a building that was a mosque for 500 years up until only 85 years ago.

Not really, it's been supposed to be a secular state since almost 100 years ago, but has taken a turn for the worse in the last few years

You might as well say the same thing about the Islamic revolution in Iran, or the Taliban takeover in Afghanistan, they were muslim dominated countries before these things happened...

Hotblack Desiato

donaghs wrote: »

In the past sure, hardly nowadays? Trying to think of what countries nowadays the Catholics Church imposing their will on everyone?

It's clear they'd like to though. You only have to think back to the two referendums in the last few years, the position of the RCC bishops was very clear, priests sermonising about the evils of gays and abortion, nasty leaflets in the back of the churches, No campaign groups heavily linked to the same hardcore of ultraconservative Catholic laity that have been trying to poison this place for the last 40 years (yes, 40 years ago there were people who thought Ireland was already far too liberal :rolleyes: )

Don't forget the anti-gay and anti-abortion propaganda in many schools, too. Schools which the church doesn't pay for, we do. They are desperate to hang onto control of the schools despite the spoof Diarmuid Martin comes out with.

The only difference between the past and today is that most people ignore what the RCC says.