What's your opinion on Irish police/law-enforcement?

bo0li5eumx12kp

No police force is perfect I'm sure.

At the end of the day, hey - we're only people.

It had been alluded to previously that drug busts are most incentivized within the force itself and day to day complaints as regards keeping a more generally civilized society can be overlooked.

Maybe there's some kind of a commision structure?
Additional bonus for a drugs possession/distribution arrest?
For everything else - not so much.....?

:pac:

Some case in the paper couple days ago about a youth drilling out catalytic converters from staff cars at beaumont hospital.

Apparently he's been getting away with it for months.


My curiosity in this regard is born out of the general observation that essential anti-social behavior seems to be so well tolerated amongst Irish police.

i.e. they don't really seem to either care, or on some level, what - just accept it as way of life here?

Perhaps it's related to Irish alcohol culture?

Drunk and disorderly, social obscenity etc, hell - sometimes I truly wonder whether on some level they actually actively promote or encourage it...


Or maybe it's the top down effect?
Last number of years it's been old school'ers, Francis Fitzgerald and Charlie Flanagan as justice ministers.

Now we have somewhat younger generation Helen Mac at the reigns.

More modern policing and police culture to be seen in her era?

I guess we'll see.

Mad_maxx

we have always held our police force to a very low standard

I Am Nobody

They do the best that they can,but it's the light handed judges that undermine everything the Gardai do.I never understood why the Gardai get blamed for a judges failing.

5uspect

They seem disinterested in enforcement and would rather brush the vast majority of day to day incidents under the carpet. Roads policing in particular is effectively nonexistent in Ireland.

Maybe there’s too much paperwork?

Mad_maxx

I Am Nobody wrote: »

They do the best that they can,but it's the light handed judges that undermine everything the Gardai do.I never understood why the Gardai get blamed for a judges failing.

a common take on things

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

AGS is an archaic institution. Drew Harris is cleaning it up, but it’s still an old school, Do as we say, not as we do, closed shop. Low standards, no accountability, morally bankrupt.

riffmongous

The biggest problem I've ever had with Irish police is that they are just never around, and I'm not not sure how much they can be blamed for that. Although all the scandals the last years would make you question the organisation itself.

European police are generally much worse, my local ones I've found to be useless in any interaction with them, and many of them at the lower levels are really just the dregs, especially the Robocop types

Mr_Muffin

I've lost all faith in them over the past few years. No wonder some people end up taking the law into their own hands.

Signore Fancy Pants

I would like to see them all armed and conducting regular beatings on the streets.

Turbohymac

It's not the police in Ireland are at fault
..its the high level of criminals and arseholes. Residing here and knowing that theres little chance of them getting prosecuted compared to criminals living in mainland Europe..

Trigger Happy

Must be disheartening to be on the frontline and seeing the courts give light sentences and scrotes free to reoffend.

McGinniesta

I've lost a lot of respect for the gardai.

However, they are severely hampered by some very poorly written and poorly conceived laws.

Madison Hundreds Tyrant

Madison Hundreds Tyrant wrote: »

My curiosity in this regard is born out of the general observation that essential anti-social behavior seems to be so well tolerated amongst Irish police.

i.e. they don't really seem to either care, or on some level, what - just accept it as way of life here?

Perhaps it's related to Irish alcohol culture?

Drunk and disorderly, social obscenity etc, hell - sometimes I truly wonder whether on some level they actually actively promote or encourage it...
.

You should spend a day in the district court OP, see just exactly how much time & money is spent dealing with public order incidents.

FYI, no incentives are there for police for any type of crime , murders, drugs, public order, no-one gets anything for solving these crimes, just doing their job.

Eduard Khil

Very inept attitude to adults with disabilities and special needs in the few instances I reached out for support I was met with indifference

Kylta

I've had many a run in with the police growing up for various different reasons. But I would say that our police do a good job especially in regards to drugs and murders their intellingence set up seems to be sh!t hot. When I was a teenage if you were out of order the guards wouldn't think twice of slapping you sensible and I say that mildly. I think with liberals looking to keep the police in check has deluted the way the police think and do things.
Because in the past their was confessions battered out of innocent people whichare was totally wrong.
I agree that the judges seem to have a lack of reality in regards to their sentencing of hardened criminals. The state done away with St Patrick's institution and put youngsters in Oberstown which I think gave young criminals a lesser incarceration than the harsher one St Pats offered. I mean if you get locked up in these days, its more like your detained in your bedroom instead of prison. Has I said in my youth and late teens I understood policing in the inner city.
But crime seems to be a major thing or are the media just blowing it out of all proportion just to sensationalise their headlines?

whisky_galore

There are only two kinds of guards, great ones and complete arseholes, but I'd rather a member of AGS than a militarised US type cop with an itchy trigger finger any day of the week.

By and large I think it is the legal system let's the whole thing down.
Judges and the legal fellow parasites have a lot to answer for, they're not ever going to change as keeping this revolving door farce going is a nice earner for them.

Corrupt or indifferent to doing their job



But i live in,what would be a challenging area to police tradionally,so they probably take hands off approach as much as is practible id say

enricoh

Any dealings I or the family had had over the years I found them utterly disinterested in doing anything. Just business break ins, burglaries, theft of gear from farm etc.
I wouldn't fancy seeing some of the stuff they see though. A good few cops in my local and they would be fairly heavy drinkers.
The missus is from a rural area in the west and the cops there actually work! I was amazed! Depends on the culture in the station I suppose.

mr_fegelien

Eduard Khil wrote: »

Very inept attitude to adults with disabilities and special needs in the few instances I reached out for support I was met with indifference

What do you mean?

Witcher

5uspect wrote: »

They seem disinterested in enforcement and would rather brush the vast majority of day to day incidents under the carpet. Roads policing in particular is effectively nonexistent in Ireland.

Maybe there’s too much paperwork?

I love how one poster will say AGS are only traffic wardens but another...like the above will say enforcement is nonexistent...which is it lads?:pac:

Potential-Monke

I was a Garda for 9 years before I got sense and left. This is my take on it.

First off, you really don't know what it's like to be a Garda, or do the job of a Garda, unless you are/have been one. It's very easy to look on from the outside and think you know how things should be done, but it's very different actually doing it. There are very few people out there who actually know the law, but everyone is an expert after the fact. You have to make split second decisions, all the while trying to ensure it's all above board and in accordance with the law, but also having to keep in mind your own protection, the protection of others and of property. While the training in Templemore is good, very good actually (and highly regarded the world over), actually doing the job is very hard.

Then you have the numbers. Using this chart, Ireland are 55th in the world for police per capita, with 265 Gardai for every 100,000 people (from 2012 so that has probably changed). Unfortunately, most of those would be tied up in office jobs, or specialised units, so the figure is actually quite a bit lower if we look at frontline only (as would be the same in a lot of other countries, minus the office jobs). And the frontline is who get it the worst, as they're the most visible. You'll see plenty Gardai in the busier, popular stations and the areas where politicians and higher Garda management live, but other places are forgotten/have to make do with what they have.

Then you have the lack of proper vehicles. Standard, cheapest ones they can find (for the vast majority) which aren't even equipped for Garda use aside from throwing on lights and sirens and a radio into it. No protection for the members in the car (only the paddy wagons and "dog vans" have cages). The uniform is not fit for purpose, and the one they brought in that was fit for purpose was given to Community Policing instead of the frontline (which makes no sense). The pants are too heavy, the shirts are from the cheapest manufacturer and don't allow the tie to sit properly, there's a tie!!!, and throwaway stab vests from another country which don't let you breath and are ill fitted. The only defence you have is a thin metal baton that doesn't really do much, and the second weakest pepper spray you can get.

Management are more concerned with getting promoted, which means they will hang members out to dry instead of defending them, just to show they're able to make 'hard' decisions. There is little to no support from management when I left (about 5 years ago). The rota was only changed from a damaging system to a slightly less damaging system in the last 10 years, and still results in a lack of manpower most the time. The frontline in a lot of stations do all the work, with the specialised units providing backup (hah) or only taking the serious crimes, instead of all the crimes in their section (which makes more sense imo, better to have one unit dealing with all the burglaries as it's usually the same folk). And you have the highest management refusing to stir the pot and demand more resources/manpower. This is changing I believe with Harris, but I was gone before he came along.

It's rife with neoptism, and if you're into sports and play for a county team, you'll get what you want when you want it. Transfers are non-existant, and if you're lucky enough to get one, it can be pulled from under your feet and given to the aforementioned, or the arse lickers. Office Gardai, a lot of them, think they're better than the operational ones (civillian staff, for the most part, are lovely and are the ones actually keeping the stations going). If you're not into sport, you'll be left outside while the rest of them circle jerk each other over sport.

Then you have an inept judiciary and legal system with a revolving door that only works to line the pockets of solicitors and barristers. Unnecessary adjournments, numerous times for scum but only 1 chance for the state to have an adjournment. Legal aid in the millions to career criminals. A slap on the wrist for career criminals and hard sentencing if you've the audacity to be a good citizen and not have been in trouble before. Judges who live in a world of their own, as they live in the previously mentioned safe areas which are well staffed by Gardai. No organisation with the Gardai to arrange court for days they're working, and even holidays having to be cancelled because you have to attend court (albeit not very often, but it happens). Court attendance on your days off, mandatory overtime which you may get paid for.

But the worst part are the public. The know it alls, the after the fact experts, the absolute coonts who shove cameras in your face (do it from a bit back, stop interfering). The freemen of the land. The 'do you know who I am' asshats. The intoxicated 'I know my rights' bellends. The collection of folk with a different background who you can't even touch and flaunt the law. Don't get me wrong, there are lovely civillians out there, but you don't deal with them.

You also see the worst of society, deal with some of the most harrowing incidents most of ye will never have to even read, let alone investigate (a particular one was removing a 3 day old dead baby from a screaming mother who was convinced it was only sleeping, or lifting a body out of a crashed car and not a single bone still intact, or trying to gather evidence while a body with a poker stuck in their skull lies there), all with (up until I left) no mental health protection. Having to tell people their parent/child is dead from a crash/stabbing/assault/shot, etc (they'll either break down and cry while you have to keep a professional yet empathetic face, or they're in shock so indifferent and just gathering details, or they attack you). It's far from easy, and nothing can prepare you for it.

There's a piece a cop wrote one time, for America but still holds true minus the guns in Ireland, where he outlines all the jobs you have to do as a cop, and he's not wrong. It means you've to be a teacher, a social worker, a law enforcer, etc. Can't find it now, but the list of things you're expected to be is ridiculous but accurate. The job would be fine if you just had to enforce the law, but it's far, far more than that. And people just don't understand, but are always available to judge in retrospect. Every police force has bad apples, both on the ground and in management. They're the only ones people remember, not the 95% of the rest of them who do a good, hard job every day. In the end, I was sick of being judged based on others actions, when I was actively working to let the public know we're just people trying to do a job. I changed a few peoples opinions on AGS through my actions, but it still wasn't enough. 'You're all the same'. Yes, I'm the exact same as the corrupt cops literally on the other side of the country who did something 10 years ago when I was still in college. It's a hard, thankless, judged job which no longer pays what I was on, and I still considered what I was on not enough for the work I did/risks I took. A last minute event where I was nearly thrown off the 3rd floor balcony was the nail in the coffin for me, as the people who did it didn't even get prosecuted (that's part of the job)...

People have different experiences with the Gardai. I've had two dangerous fights in my life while in Ireland, and both times the Gardai arrived reasonably quickly, were professional, and honestly, I found them to be brilliant. I've been stopped by them (as a teen) while stoned and carrying small amounts of weed, and they were sound, letting me off with warning, when they could easily have messed up my life.

I've met a few power-trip or somewhat psychopathic Gardai before, but honestly, most of the remainder have been very good. I understand that other people have difference experiences, but it's worth remembering that they do a lot of good too.

I respect them. Horrible job. Very easy to be misunderstood especially in the current climate.

Kylta

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I was a Garda for 9 years before I got sense and left. This is my take on it.

First off, you really don't know what it's like to be a Garda, or do the job of a Garda, unless you are/have been one. It's very easy to look on from the outside and think you know how things should be done, but it's very different actually doing it. There are very few people out there who actually know the law, but everyone is an expert after the fact. You have to make split second decisions, all the while trying to ensure it's all above board and in accordance with the law, but also having to keep in mind your own protection, the protection of others and of property. While the training in Templemore is good, very good actually (and highly regarded the world over), actually doing the job is very hard.

Then you have the numbers. Using this chart, Ireland are 55th in the world for police per capita, with 265 Gardai for every 100,000 people (from 2012 so that has probably changed). Unfortunately, most of those would be tied up in office jobs, or specialised units, so the figure is actually quite a bit lower if we look at frontline only (as would be the same in a lot of other countries, minus the office jobs). And the frontline is who get it the worst, as they're the most visible. You'll see plenty Gardai in the busier, popular stations and the areas where politicians and higher Garda management live, but other places are forgotten/have to make do with what they have.

Then you have the lack of proper vehicles. Standard, cheapest ones they can find (for the vast majority) which aren't even equipped for Garda use aside from throwing on lights and sirens and a radio into it. No protection for the members in the car (only the paddy wagons and "dog vans" have cages). The uniform is not fit for purpose, and the one they brought in that was fit for purpose was given to Community Policing instead of the frontline (which makes no sense). The pants are too heavy, the shirts are from the cheapest manufacturer and don't allow the tie to sit properly, there's a tie!!!, and throwaway stab vests from another country which don't let you breath and are ill fitted. The only defence you have is a thin metal baton that doesn't really do much, and the second weakest pepper spray you can get.

Management are more concerned with getting promoted, which means they will hang members out to dry instead of defending them, just to show they're able to make 'hard' decisions. There is little to no support from management when I left (about 5 years ago). The rota was only changed from a damaging system to a slightly less damaging system in the last 10 years, and still results in a lack of manpower most the time. The frontline in a lot of stations do all the work, with the specialised units providing backup (hah) or only taking the serious crimes, instead of all the crimes in their section (which makes more sense imo, better to have one unit dealing with all the burglaries as it's usually the same folk). And you have the highest management refusing to stir the pot and demand more resources/manpower. This is changing I believe with Harris, but I was gone before he came along.

It's rife with neoptism, and if you're into sports and play for a county team, you'll get what you want when you want it. Transfers are non-existant, and if you're lucky enough to get one, it can be pulled from under your feet and given to the aforementioned, or the arse lickers. Office Gardai, a lot of them, think they're better than the operational ones (civillian staff, for the most part, are lovely and are the ones actually keeping the stations going). If you're not into sport, you'll be left outside while the rest of them circle jerk each other over sport.

Then you have an inept judiciary and legal system with a revolving door that only works to line the pockets of solicitors and barristers. Unnecessary adjournments, numerous times for scum but only 1 chance for the state to have an adjournment. Legal aid in the millions to career criminals. A slap on the wrist for career criminals and hard sentencing if you've the audacity to be a good citizen and not have been in trouble before. Judges who live in a world of their own, as they live in the previously mentioned safe areas which are well staffed by Gardai. No organisation with the Gardai to arrange court for days they're working, and even holidays having to be cancelled because you have to attend court (albeit not very often, but it happens). Court attendance on your days off, mandatory overtime which you may get paid for.

But the worst part are the public. The know it alls, the after the fact experts, the absolute coonts who shove cameras in your face (do it from a bit back, stop interfering). The freemen of the land. The 'do you know who I am' asshats. The intoxicated 'I know my rights' bellends. The collection of folk with a different background who you can't even touch and flaunt the law. Don't get me wrong, there are lovely civillians out there, but you don't deal with them.

You also see the worst of society, deal with some of the most harrowing incidents most of ye will never have to even read, let alone investigate (a particular one was removing a 3 day old dead baby from a screaming mother who was convinced it was only sleeping, or lifting a body out of a crashed car and not a single bone still intact, or trying to gather evidence while a body with a poker stuck in their skull lies there), all with (up until I left) no mental health protection. Having to tell people their parent/child is dead from a crash/stabbing/assault/shot, etc (they'll either break down and cry while you have to keep a professional yet empathetic face, or they're in shock so indifferent and just gathering details, or they attack you). It's far from easy, and nothing can prepare you for it.

There's a piece a cop wrote one time, for America but still holds true minus the guns in Ireland, where he outlines all the jobs you have to do as a cop, and he's not wrong. It means you've to be a teacher, a social worker, a law enforcer, etc. Can't find it now, but the list of things you're expected to be is ridiculous but accurate. The job would be fine if you just had to enforce the law, but it's far, far more than that. And people just don't understand, but are always available to judge in retrospect. Every police force has bad apples, both on the ground and in management. They're the only ones people remember, not the 95% of the rest of them who do a good, hard job every day. In the end, I was sick of being judged based on others actions, when I was actively working to let the public know we're just people trying to do a job. I changed a few peoples opinions on AGS through my actions, but it still wasn't enough. 'You're all the same'. Yes, I'm the exact same as the corrupt cops literally on the other side of the country who did something 10 years ago when I was still in college. It's a hard, thankless, judged job which no longer pays what I was on, and I still considered what I was on not enough for the work I did/risks I took. A last minute event where I was nearly thrown off the 3rd floor balcony was the nail in the coffin for me, as the people who did it didn't even get prosecuted (that's part of the job)...

So are you in therapy

Potential-Monke

Kylta wrote: »

So are you in therapy

Nope, I've decided to become a hermit and concentrate on what makes me happy, which it appears is less social interaction because people are idiots, and copious amounts of weed. And gaming. yeah, if you looked at my life right now, you'd think I was one of those waster stoner types. But I've a full time WFH job, I contribute, but I just don't sign up to the 'typical' life of a wife, mortgage (had it, recession, sold the house and took the hit), kids, sports, SUV crap.

Far better than any therapist trying to tell me how I should feel and act, even though I know myself that I'm the opposite of most people so the typical therapy crap doesn't work for me.

Jimbob1977

It must be hard to arrest a criminal and prepare a file for the DPP.... only for the judge to hand out a suspended sentence for the 90th offence.

Then the criminal walks out of the courtroom and robs, rapes or kills someone.

Our judiciary and legal profession are a major part of the problem.

Potential-Monke

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

It must be hard to arrest a criminal and prepare a file for the DPP.... only for the judge to hand out a suspended sentence for the 90th offence.

Then the criminal walks out of the courtroom and robs, rapes or kills someone.

Our judiciary and legal profession are a major part of the problem.

I remember finally getting one of those shytes to court after multiple offences (theft, burglary and assault) in a short space of time. Judge gives him 4 days in prison. 4 days. Anyway, at the time we used to bring these "people" to prison directly, so a day out driving to one of the few jails we have. Checked in said shyte. Stopped for some grub on the way back (nothing fancy, fish and chips and a can of coke). Finished up and headed back. As we were coming into the city, there was shyte walking into the city. Turns out there wasn't enough spaces so they temporarily released him, gave him €20 and a bus ticket, and he was home on the train the same time as us. What a waste of resources, time and money.

bo0li5eumx12kp

I Am Nobody wrote: »

They do the best that they can,but it's the light handed judges that undermine everything the Gardai do.I never understood why the Gardai get blamed for a judges failing.

Good point - hadn't considered it.

Though you know, what do I know about justice and the court of law?

Not a whole lot.

But yeah, some decisions that have come from some judges are almost criminal in themselves.

Naive?

Who knows....

But good point.

bo0li5eumx12kp

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

AGS is an archaic institution. Drew Harris is cleaning it up, but it’s still an old school, Do as we say, not as we do, closed shop. Low standards, no accountability, morally bankrupt.

Is Drew Harris on twitter?

I'd like to twitter bomb him but, can't find his account.

bo0li5eumx12kp

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Then you have an inept judiciary and legal system with a revolving door that only works to line the pockets of solicitors and barristers. Unnecessary adjournments, numerous times for scum but only 1 chance for the state to have an adjournment. Legal aid in the millions to career criminals. A slap on the wrist for career criminals and hard sentencing if you've the audacity to be a good citizen and not have been in trouble before. Judges who live in a world of their own, as they live in the previously mentioned safe areas which are well staffed by Gardai. No organisation with the Gardai to arrange court for days they're working, and even holidays having to be cancelled because you have to attend court (albeit not very often, but it happens). Court attendance on your days off, mandatory overtime which you may get paid for.

Good post.

bo0li5eumx12kp

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

It must be hard to arrest a criminal and prepare a file for the DPP.... only for the judge to hand out a suspended sentence for the 90th offence.

Then the criminal walks out of the courtroom and robs, rapes or kills someone.

Our judiciary and legal profession are a major part of the problem.

Any opinions as to why this is allowed to continue?

Helen Mac, are you reading?

Why is this allowed to continue?

bo0li5eumx12kp

Maybe I need to start another thread entitled, "what's wrong the Irish judicial system?"