One of these things be legal

CorkScrew98989

https://hardairmagazine.com/news/the-new-fx-ranchero-arrow-pcp-pistol/


- not a crossbow
- dont think it has a muzzle but even if it does its at 240 fps
- class

Would be legal?

banie01

The blurb lists the energy as 30ft/lbs, that's @41joules.

That is fires a bolt is outside my own knowledge but I'd err on the side of caution and assume it's illegal.

Why are you trying to find loopholes for a high energy psuedo firearm?
Did you not also post about the Daisy?

Either get a license, or take up airsoft maybe?

CorkScrew98989

banie01 wrote: »

The blurb lists the energy as 30ft/lbs, that's @41joules.

That is fires a bolt is outside my own knowledge but I'd err on the side of caution and assume it's illegal.

Why are you trying to find loopholes for a high energy psuedo firearm?
Did you not also post about the Daisy?

Either get a license, or take up airsoft maybe?

Yeah I did i think **** like this is cool but idk if id bother going for a license seems like some hassle

meathstevie

CorkScrew98989 wrote: »

https://hardairmagazine.com/news/the-new-fx-ranchero-arrow-pcp-pistol/


- not a crossbow
- dont think it has a muzzle but even if it does its at 240 fps
- class

Would be legal?

One aspect of the Irish firearms legislation is very simple. Any device that throws a projectile with more than one Joule of energy being generated is a firearm for the purposes of the legislation. Longbows and catapults would be the exceptions because it’s your own muscle power that provides the energy.

solarwinds

For the purpose of keeping it simple just think of it like this, if it is something you would enjoy using then you will need a licence for it, simple.

meathstevie

banie01 wrote: »

The blurb lists the energy as 30ft/lbs, that's @41joules.

That is fires a bolt is outside my own knowledge but I'd err on the side of caution and assume it's illegal.

Why are you trying to find loopholes for a high energy psuedo firearm?
Did you not also post about the Daisy?

Either get a license, or take up airsoft maybe?

You can’t hunt with it and to the best of my knowledge there are no target shooting disciplines for that particular contraption so finding good reason to convince a Chief Super ( it would be a restricted short firearm ) to issue a licence are very slim.

CorkScrew98989

meathstevie wrote: »

One aspect of the Irish firearms legislation is very simple. Any device that throws a projectile with more than one Joule of energy being generated is a firearm for the purposes of the legislation. Longbows and catapults would be the exceptions because it’s your own muscle power that provides the energy.

I suppose ur right got ahead of myself seeing that spearguns are legal

Munsterlad102

CorkScrew98989 wrote: »

I suppose ur right got ahead of myself seeing that spearguns are legal

If you want something similar, you could always take up archery. I’m 90% sure it isn’t regulated so you should be able to go out and buy a bow. Food for thought anyway.

cookimonster

You'll pick up a fairly cheep bow and equip yourself for hours of fun and practice. Great for the mind.

https://www.decathlon.ie/ie_en/all-sports/archery/bows/club-bows.html

tudderone

meathstevie wrote: »

You can’t hunt with it and to the best of my knowledge there are no target shooting disciplines for that particular contraption so finding good reason to convince a Chief Super ( it would be a restricted short firearm ) to issue a licence are very slim.

Restricted short firearm - no application possible.

Grizzly 45

solarwinds wrote: »

For the purpose of keeping it simple just think of it like this, if it is something you would enjoy using then you will need a licence for it, simple.

^ THIS^:D

Grizzly 45

meathstevie wrote: »

One aspect of the Irish firearms legislation is very simple. Any device that throws a projectile with more than one Joule of energy being generated is a firearm for the purposes of the legislation. Longbows and catapults would be the exceptions because it’s your own muscle power that provides the energy.

So why are blow guns prohibited then?.After all its your lungs that are powering them.

meathstevie

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So why are blow guns prohibited then?.After all its your lungs that are powering them.

Hmm, very valid point. The prohibited because it’s fun logic is probably more to the point.

meathstevie

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So why are blow guns prohibited then?.After all its your lungs that are powering them.

Very true, it must be the prohibited because it’s fun logic that’s more applicable.

Daft if you think it through isn’t it ? A young lad messing in school blowing spitballs with the tube of a pen is technically doing something illegal.

tudderone

meathstevie wrote: »

Very true, it must be the prohibited because it’s fun logic that’s more applicable.

Daft if you think it through isn’t it ? A young lad messing in school blowing spitballs with the tube of a pen is technically doing something illegal.

Sex is still ok, so long as you take no pleasure in it.

BattleCorp

tudderone wrote: »

Sex is still ok, so long as you take no pleasure in it.

At least my missus isn't breaking the law. :D:D

Brontosaurus

solarwinds wrote: »

For the purpose of keeping it simple just think of it like this, if it is something you would enjoy using then you will need a licence for it, simple.

Ain't that the fecking truth. Always assume that if you are a responsible adult who conducts themselves in a safe manor, whatever it is you want to do or own is illegal and go from there.

Even when it comes to bows, AFAIK you're limited to 30lbs draw weight, and crossbows are a no-no. There is not a shooting sport of any variety in this country that isn't unbelievably cucked and fudded into oblivion.

It's a sad state of affairs when bows/air-guns/firearms are less restricted in places like Germany and Sweden, I think we only have the UK beat.

tudderone

Brontosaurus wrote: »

Ain't that the fecking truth. Always assume that if you are a responsible adult who conducts themselves in a safe manor, whatever it is you want to do or own is illegal and go from there.

Even when it comes to bows, AFAIK you're limited to 30lbs draw weight, and crossbows are a no-no. There is not a shooting sport of any variety in this country that isn't unbelievably cucked and fudded into oblivion.

It's a sad state of affairs when bows/air-guns/firearms are less restricted in places like Germany and Sweden, I think we only have the UK beat.

Not really either, They still have practical shotgun, cowboy action shooting, muzzle loading/blackpowder pistol shooting, a lot more access to centrefire ranges, including military/ex military ranges, something forbidden here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXi3Hk6n0vs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOaAHDWYNa0

CorkScrew98989

Brontosaurus wrote: »

Ain't that the fecking truth. Always assume that if you are a responsible adult who conducts themselves in a safe manor, whatever it is you want to do or own is illegal and go from there.

Even when it comes to bows, AFAIK you're limited to 30lbs draw weight, and crossbows are a no-no. There is not a shooting sport of any variety in this country that isn't unbelievably cucked and fudded into oblivion.

It's a sad state of affairs when bows/air-guns/firearms are less restricted in places like Germany and Sweden, I think we only have the UK beat.

Uk can have crossbows and airguns weithout licenses for the most part

Honestly is theyre anyway we could petition for a change of laws i know the answer is no but worth the ask

Munsterlad102

CorkScrew98989 wrote: »

Uk can have crossbows and airguns weithout licenses for the most part

Honestly is theyre anyway we could petition for a change of laws i know the answer is no but worth the ask

With the minister being more concerned about gender quotas in the workplace, she clearly doesn’t care about the real world affects of policies, just how they look. It’s probably best not to draw much attention, lest that have the opposite affect of having certain interest groups getting the notion that our firearms laws are too lenient and then demanding more guns be banned. Perhaps if a more sympathetic minister was there, but there certainly isn’t one there now.

Grizzly 45

Maybe if we got more LQGBT/alaphabet soup group members shooting,then they might leave us alone and liberalise the gun laws,as it doesnt do to go "oppressing " those folks?:rolleyes:

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Maybe if we got more LQGBT/alaphabet soup group members shooting,then they might leave us alone and liberalise the gun laws,as it doesnt do to go "oppressing " those folks?:rolleyes:

Nah you're alright, i don't fancy heading to the range to shoot along side a builders labourer in a wig, a ballgown and high heels. At work we had one of those "Today i am identifying as a female" loons, a dollop with a beard taking the slash, watching idiot managers jumping around terrified that something they did could "offend" him/her/it :rolleyes:.

Munsterlad102

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Maybe if we got more LQGBT/alaphabet soup group members shooting,then they might leave us alone and liberalise the gun laws,as it doesnt do to go "oppressing " those folks?:rolleyes:

Maybe if we got a letter in there for all the “shooting sexuals”, LGBTS 😂

Grizzly 45

tudderone wrote: »

Nah you're alright, i don't fancy heading to the range to shoot along side a builders labourer in a wig, a ballgown and high heels. At work we had one of those "Today i am identifying as a female" loons, a dollop with a beard taking the slash, watching idiot managers jumping around terrified that something they did could "offend" him/her/it :rolleyes:.

He'd be proably perfectly normal in todays army :D

Zxthinger

My thoughts are that it is not a firearm! In the sense that it doesn't discharge a projectile thus the 1joule rule is irrelevant.

However it is so closely styled on a crossbow that it would easily be considered as a crossbow, mimicking its function with a different power train.
In the absence of a definition of a crossbow as not found in Irish law it is my opinion that it operates without a bow but could still be considered as a crossbow which is licensable under the restricted firearm rules.

BattleCorp

Zxthinger wrote: »

My thoughts are that it is not a firearm! In the sense that it doesn't discharge a projectile thus the 1joule rule is irrelevant.

Is the bolt not a projectile?

Grizzly 45

Zxthinger wrote: »

My thoughts are that it is not a firearm! In the sense that it doesn't discharge a projectile thus the 1joule rule is irrelevant.

However it is so closely styled on a crossbow that it would easily be considered as a crossbow, mimicking its function with a different power train.
In the absence of a definition of a crossbow as not found in Irish law it is my opinion that it operates without a bow but could still be considered as a crossbow which is licensable under the restricted firearm rules.

Again its the definition of a firearm that gets you.As it projects a missile over 1 joule,so the design creiteria falls away.

HOWEVER there is a marvellous device for sale in the US[where else?] that allows you to use a compound or recurve bow like a X bow,without it being one.Designed for the bow hunter who is gettin on in years ,or for those who dont want to shell out the price of a good rifle on a high tech/low tech toy. Or for states that dont have Xbows in their primitive weapon season.
Called an inline draw loc made by Hickory Creek.
Technology beats law again.

BattleCorp

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Again its the definition of a firearm that gets you.As it projects a missile over 1 joule,so the design creiteria falls away.

HOWEVER there is a marvellous device for sale in the US[where else?] that allows you to use a compound or recurve bow like a X bow,without it being one.Designed for the bow hunter who is gettin on in years ,or for those who dont want to shell out the price of a good rifle on a high tech/low tech toy. Or for states that dont have Xbows in their primitive weapon season.
Called an inline draw loc made by Hickory Creek.
Technology beats law again.

I think you could argue that it turns a compound bow into a crossbow and therefore might be a bit dodgy under our legislation. I know it's an arrow rest but I wouldn't like to bet my nuts on the PTB here agreeing with you.

Great idea though.

Grizzly 45

Like "assault rifles" they micht consider defining what a crossbow is in law first off.Awfultricky to legislate for something if you cant describe what you are legislating about.
Beats me why they even bother trying to enforce this anyway.A crossbow is easier to make than even a zip gun by anyone who is a grade D Klutz in making anything in wood[That's me included in that:p]
I mean two branches and a bit of time ,you cn make one.

Zxthinger

BattleCorp wrote: »

Is the bolt not a projectile?

Discharge!
It doesn't discharge. You discharge from an orific, this items casts off an arrow but doesn't discharge anything, thus was the need to specifically include crossbows in the 1990s with specific mention to them by name..
The problem is that no definition of such an item is given.
If you made a ballista would it be classed as a crossbow? Who knows, technically it only uses torsion from twisted ropes and has no bow or prod
what's the difference between twisted ropes and a the elastic on a spear gun?
Does an arrow holding aid make a compound bow into a crossbow?

Semantics can mean the difference between losing and winning

Zxthinger

BattleCorp wrote: »

I think you could argue that it turns a compound bow into a crossbow and therefore might be a bit dodgy under our legislation. I know it's an arrow rest but I wouldn't like to bet my nuts on the PTB here agreeing with you.

Great idea though.

It's still not a crossbow and as the addition of this hardware does not make it a crossbow.
Chuck Norris's films have a lot to answer for.
We live in a land we're blow darts and Nija throwing stars are banned, ffs wtf ,( where the figures)
How many crimes were caused by blow darts? Lol

CorkScrew98989

Zxthinger wrote: »

My thoughts are that it is not a firearm! In the sense that it doesn't discharge a projectile thus the 1joule rule is irrelevant.

However it is so closely styled on a crossbow that it would easily be considered as a crossbow, mimicking its function with a different power train.
In the absence of a definition of a crossbow as not found in Irish law it is my opinion that it operates without a bow but could still be considered as a crossbow which is licensable under the restricted firearm rules.

Thats what i was thinking but reading the 2006 act

) a lethal firearm or other lethal weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged,

Would this mean its a firearm?

Zxthinger

CorkScrew98989 wrote: »

Thats what i was thinking but reading the 2006 act

) a lethal firearm or other lethal weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged,

Would this mean its a firearm?

It doesn't discharge anything so this pert of the act is not relevant. It do however closely resemble a cross bow so.

Munsterlad102

Zxthinger wrote: »

It doesn't discharge anything so this pert of the act is not relevant. It do however closely resemble a cross bow so.

The revised firearms act states “ firearm ” means —

( a ) a lethal firearm or other lethal weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged,

( b ) an air gun (including an air rifle and air pistol) with a muzzle energy greater than one joule or any other weapon incorporating a barrel from which any projectile can be discharged with such a muzzle energy.

Both these definitions would catch you out as the company making these air guns/dart gun (not sure what you would call it) are advertising it as a hunting weapon, “The company is promoting this as a hunting gun for use at ranges out to 30 Yards.” I personally don’t hunt but I think it would be a safe assumption to say that you’re meant to kill what you’re hunting, so it would constitute a lethal weapon then.

The second definition also gets you as it uses air as it’s propellant so I’m fairly sure that would count as an air gun and this is where you really get caught out. According to the website “the Ranchero Arrow fires a 230 Grain bolt/arrow with a Muzzle Velocity of up to 240 FPS. That’s close to 30 Ft/Lbs of Muzzle Energy”. If you run the numbers you come out to nearly 40 Joules of Kinetic Energy (39.87), so it’s probably best not to try buy one.

Zxthinger

On the contrary, both definitions rely on the principle that the items therein discharge.
To reiterate, 'discharge' is the expulsions from a closed area or an orifice.

I will again state that this device comes under the crossbow. As such there is no definition so anything goes.

A poor barrister would have little difficulty defending agains your two definitions provided and I dare say say they'd have little difficulty demonstrating the weaknesses in trying to draw parallels to the crossbow..

Munsterlad102

Zxthinger wrote: »

On the contrary, both definitions rely on the principle that the items therein discharge.
To reiterate, 'discharge' is the expulsions from a closed area or an orifice.

I will again state that this device comes under the crossbow. As such there is no definition so anything goes.

A poor barrister would have little difficulty defending agains your two definitions provided and I dare say say they'd have little difficulty demonstrating the weaknesses in trying to draw parallels to the crossbow..

I see what you’re saying but your defense is on the basis that there is only one definition for discharged but there isn’t. Another definition of discharge that is relevant here is “to fire a gun or shoot an arrow etc”. If your definition was the legal one then someone would have made a legal zip gun by just tying a bullet to a plank and having a crude trigger. To be honest you have made a decent point but no judge or Garda is going to agree with your definition and let’s not forget how you can probably stick a nail inside the barrel and hence making it a firearm by your definition. At $1,000 a gun, it’s not a risk anyone should really want to be taking.

CorkScrew98989

Zxthinger wrote: »

It doesn't discharge anything so this pert of the act is not relevant. It do however closely resemble a cross bow so.

In theory its legal but in practice i would get in alot of trouble for possesing one?

tudderone

CorkScrew98989 wrote: »

In theory its legal but in practice i would get in alot of trouble for possesing one?

Its like reloading. Its not illegal, its just you're not allowed to do it :rolleyes:

BattleCorp

Zxthinger wrote: »

Semantics can mean the difference between losing and winning

And another way to put it, semantics can mean the difference between going to jail and not going to jail.

Zxthinger

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

I see what you’re saying but your defense is on the basis that there is only one definition for discharged but there isn’t. Another definition of discharge that is relevant here is “to fire a gun or shoot an arrow etc”. If your definition was the legal one then someone would have made a legal zip gun by just tying a bullet to a plank and having a crude trigger. To be honest you have made a decent point but no judge or Garda is going to agree with your definition and let’s not forget how you can probably stick a nail inside the barrel and hence making it a firearm by your definition. At $1,000 a gun, it’s not a risk anyone should really want to be taking.

Firstly, my advise is to licence this and treat it as a firearm under Irish law.. take no chances on such an item.
Secondly, let me draw you attention to a few issues which we don't agree on;
A firearm is an arm that produces fire!
This definition is expanded to cover all arms that discharge. i.e air power
An arrow is not propelled by fire nor is it discharged thus the need to specifically legislate for the crossbow in the 1990s criminal justice act (IIRC)
This oddity is not a crossbow, nor is it a discharging firearm.

I known that the spear gun issue was similar in that persons using a rubber powered spear gun required no licence but other variants required licences..
I suppose that sets the stage. ...

Zxthinger

Im just wondering if those spear guns that required licences where loaded internally or externally slid over a shaft etc etc

Zxthinger

Im just wondering if those spear guns that required licences where loaded internally or externally slid over a shaft etc etc

Grizzly 45

tudderone wrote: »

Its like reloading. Its not illegal, its just you're not allowed to do it :rolleyes:

But you are!Just follow the legislation that makes it virtually impossible to do it on a home scale reloading basis.Unless you want every round to cost you about 50 euros a pop when you have done all the sums...An Irish solution to an Irish problem.Make it so difficult to do it legally,it might as welll be illegal.:(

Grizzly 45

Zxthinger wrote: »

Im just wondering if those spear guns that required licences where loaded internally or externally slid over a shaft etc etc

I'd assume they are/were the compressed air versions,not the rubber powerd versions?
The way these can still be bought in Germany until Sept1st when the legislation changes,and the way Jeorg Sprave originally designed [of slingshot channel fame]is that the arrow is launched from OVER the barrel,not through it,which makes it a firearm there.

Brontosaurus

Not to derail too much, but would this technically be a crossbow or not?

Grizzly 45

Nope
,because it is a magazine device and

[2] we don't have a legal definition of what a crossbow is in the act.

[3] By the same logic of it having a trigger mechanism making it a "crossbow" somehow,and lacking a shoulder stock of some type Bow wrist triggers would be making a normal bow into an X bow as well.

4] By the time Georg gets this thing into production,it will be so expensive it will be like those air arrow devices an expensive toy.