Out of warranty faulty laptop - should I go to small claims court?

floorpie

I have a Dell laptop that came with a 1 year warranty, which ended Nov 2019. It has had an intermittent issue wherein it freezes, the graphics glitch, and must be powered off. This has been a bother, but not bothersome enough to have it addressed. After the most recent automatic Dell update, it freezes upon every boot.

I recognise the issue (being interested in PCs) and suspected a RAM problem. I opened the laptop and found that 3 pins on one RAM slot are erroneously soldered together via an errant tiny piece of metal. Removing RAM from this slot fixes the issue.

Dell are refusing to accept that this is a manufacturing fault. They say that I haven't come for support until now, so it must be a recent issue. The laptop hasn't moved from my desk since I've bought it and, even if it had, I would have to solder metal to the motherboard to cause this problem.

It cost 2500e, and a replacement motherboard will cost 340e.

I accept that it isn't under warranty. My understanding of our statutory rights is that a faulty item may be repaired if it can be proven defective, not arising from misuse. I feel that it is provably defective and that it should be repaired/replaced.

Does this seem like a fair understanding? What proof would I need? I have pictures of the fault under a microscope, and can demonstrate that my diagnosis of the problem is correct. Would I still need to pay an engineer to look at it, come to court etc?

Thanks

drunkmonkey

I haven't the piece of legislation to hand but you needed to report the fault within 6mts of purchase. Reporting it after the warranty has expired isn't much use. Was this a refurbished laptop?

From what you have said it does sound like an obvious manufacturing fault, I'd get back onto Dell and refuse to get off the phone until they agree to look at it. I'd completely exhaust all Dell internal avenues first before even thinking of going down the small claims court route.
It's painful but you'll have to do a Karen on it and demand to speak to a manager.

You said it's ok with one ram slot, if they offered to give you a larger piece of ram you could just use in one slot would that fix the problem.

floorpie

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I haven't the piece of legislation to hand but you needed to report the fault within 6mts of purchase. Reporting it after the warranty has expired isn't much use. Was this a refurbished laptop?

From what you have said it does sound like an obvious manufacturing fault, I'd get back onto Dell and refuse to get off the phone until they agree to look at it. I'd completely exhaust all Dell internal avenues first before even thinking of going down the small claims court route.
It's painful but you'll have to do a Karen on it and demand to speak to a manager.

You said it's ok with one ram slot, if they offered to give you a larger piece of ram you could just use in one slot would that fix the problem.

Thanks. I can't find it in legislation either but guides online seem to say:

If a fault arises within six months of purchase, it is presumed to have existed at the time of purchase. For this reason, the consumer should not have to provide proof of the defect.

If the fault arises more than six months after purchase, the seller may request that the consumer prove the fault did not arise as a result of misuse – for instance, by obtaining a report from an independent expert.

https://www.eccireland.ie/ecc-ireland-issues-advisory-on-consumer-warranties-and-statutory-rights/#:~:text=Statutory%20rights%20are%20provided%20for,has%20a%20warranty%20or%20not.

And yeah, you're right and I hadn't thought of that solution, one larger piece of RAM would work. However I'd rather have it fixed if possible because there could be other related issues. I went through various managers who wont budge on it being out of warranty, and they understandably stopped talking once I said that I'll have to take up a claim in court.

Stanford

If the fault was present during the warranty period and you didn't report it to DELL then I think you really don't have recourse against DELL

floorpie

Stanford wrote: »

If the fault was present during the warranty period and you didn't report it to DELL then I think you really don't have recourse against DELL

This is essentially what Dell are telling me, but I can't see this made clear anywhere, so I'm not sure that it's the case.

Samuel T. Cogley

You've six years to make a claim in Ireland. The European legislation says you've two years but after the first six months you have to prove the fault existed at time of purchase. You've done that. However you may need an independent report.

Use the Small Claims Procedure.

Marty Bird

floorpie wrote: »

This is essentially what Dell are telling me, but I can't see this made clear anywhere, so I'm not sure that it's the case.

OP you will covered under the SOGA. I never take any notice of warranty 12 months or otherwise. If the laptop developed a problem and not from misuse then Dell are required by law to Replace, repair or refund.

If they still stone wall you tell them you have no other choice but to initiate a small claims case against them.

10-10-20

Sorry to get techy... but the problem and cause don't exactly fit. Either the metal was soldered in that position from day one and the system has been continuously faulty, or it was not.
There is a situation where metal can grow 'wires' from two opposing contacts (called tin whiskers), but that should not be the situation here. Given that you can see the metal short, can't you remove it with a pin or with a light brushing with a suitable object?

floorpie

10-10-20 wrote: »

Sorry to get techy... but the problem and cause don't exactly fit. Either the metal was soldered in that position from day one and the system has been continuously faulty, or it was not.
There is a situation where metal can grow 'wires' from two opposing contacts (called tin whiskers), but that should not be the situation here. Given that you can see the metal short, can't you remove it with a pin or with a light brushing with a suitable object?

No, please get techy! Especially in the case that Dell wont fix it, I'll have to fix it myself.

It looks like swarf, a small metal shaving, and it's soldered to the pins and can't be brushed or picked away. I'd rather not remove it as I don't know if it has caused further component issues elsewhere.

I agree that the intermittent occurrence of the symptoms is strange, but the actual symptom is characteristic of a RAM, GPU failure, or cooling. I can verify that it isn't the GPU or cooling because I can remove RAM from this slot, the computer works fine, and doesn't fail under a load test. The temperatures also remain reasonable.

The pins that it covers are a data line, error checking line, and ground. So in other words it's grounding two lines.

I don't know why it was intermittent and is now persistent, but as I say, it's happened since all the drivers were updated (automatically by Dell). The GPU and integrated graphics card both share system RAM, so perhaps the new drivers allocate memory differently, I don't know.

L1011

A very fine fibreglass pencil may be suitable to break the contacts if you're going down that route. Not sure I'd be too happy doing that myself on a laptop of that cost though and that's the field I work in!

jimmycrackcorm

10-10-20 wrote: »

Sorry to get techy... but the problem and cause don't exactly fit. Either the metal was soldered in that position from day one and the system has been continuously faulty, or it was not.
There is a situation where metal can grow 'wires' from two opposing contacts (called tin whiskers), but that should not be the situation here. Given that you can see the metal short, can't you remove it with a pin or with a light brushing with a suitable object?

Regardless, it's clearly a production fault from the start. the OP might have been had odd errors but put those down to software issues over the time. Now after proper investigation, the fault is very clear and Irish law, let alone EU law, makes it clear that it must be covered by the maufacturer.

It might be worth paying a solicitor to send a letter complete with photos of the RAM slot and evidence showing the fault. Worth following up given the clarity of the manufacturing fault.

floorpie

Here are some pics of the offending speck if anybody's interested. See if you can spot it in the Overall view!

It raises up so I can't get it in focus very well. It's soldered (I believe) to at least 3 pins. If you zoom into Macro6.jpg you can see the joint between the two right-most pins.

Maybe I'm wrong that it's a fault that came in manufacturing, but I don't think so.

paul71

Did you buy directly from Dell or from a retailer?

The warranty is completely irrelevant as your rights are protected by The Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act. Under said act you can claim up to six years after the purchase for a fault which can be shown to be present at the time of sale, the exact phrase in the act is "fit for purpose".

This act predates (1980) the EU directives and since it was deemed to exceed the protections given by the more recent EU directives, Ireland did not need to bring in new legislation.

Bear in mind my first question, who did you buy from, Dell directly or an intermediary retailer because your contact is with that entity and your recourse under the legislation is with the person with whom you made that contract.

floorpie

paul71 wrote: »

Did you buy directly from Dell or from a retailer?

The warranty is completely irrelevant as your rights are protected by The Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act. Under said act you can claim up to six years after the purchase for a fault which can be shown to be present at the time of sale, the exact phrase in the act is "fit for purpose".

This act predates (1980) the EU directives and since it was deemed to exceed the protections given by the more recent EU directives, Ireland did not need to bring in new legislation.

Bear in mind my first question, who did you buy from, Dell directly or an intermediary retailer because your contact is with that entity and your recourse under the legislation is with the person with whom you made that contract.

Bought it directly from Dell. Is that better or worse....

paul71

Better as Dell are unlikely to go out of business in the next few weeks unlike many small retailers. Just tell them you are not relying on the warranty but on the sale of goods act, if they don't satisfy you with redress by one of the 3 rs (refund, replacement, repair) dont waste any more time and lodge with smalls court, but you must first give them the opportunity to redress.

floorpie

paul71 wrote: »

Better as Dell are unlikely to go out of business in the next few weeks unlike many small retailers. Just tell them you are not relying on the warranty but on the sale of goods act, if they don't satisfy you with redress by one of the 3 rs (refund, replacement, repair) dont waste any more time and lodge with smalls court, but you must first give them the opportunity to redress.

Thanks. It appeared to be an Indian call centre and they had no clue about any act or guarantee (or pretended not to know at least).

10-10-20

Well done spotting it. It's clearly a piece of a meteorite. :pac:

I'd be whipping it off with a soldering iron.
It may have fallen onto the board during the flow-soldering process and the connection may have been marginal between two of the pins at the time, meaning it passed Dell's bench-tests. Then as time went on the connection bridged due to thermal throttling.

floorpie

10-10-20 wrote: »

I'd be whipping it off with a soldering iron.

Sorely tempted but I didn't like Dell's dismissive attitude today so it's become a matter of principle now :P

paul71

floorpie wrote: »

Thanks. It appeared to be an Indian call centre and they had no clue about any act or guarantee (or pretended not to know at least).

Try and get an email from them saying that. Also I just noticed that you may be over the limit (2000 euro) for small claims. You might be able to get around that because it is over 1 year old and may have depreciated in value as a result but maybe speak to a court clerk about that first.

http://www.courts.ie/courts.ie/library3.nsf/pagecurrent/F9B49A71A85F662C802580B100635032?opendocument&l=en

An Ri rua

I would put in the claim if I were you. Just ensure to name the correct entity. That's key.

Warranty is a threshold, a safety net. A laptop can be got for €300+. Yours is at the upper end of consumer or even business laptops. That signifies, to a judge, that your laptop, being premium, has an expectation of lasting longer and providing that premium experience you purchased for longer.

It's a small fee. You have little to lose and are being fair-minded in your approach.

paul71

https://search.cro.ie/company/CompanyDetails.aspx?id=152213&type=B


As per previous poster, you need to make sure you have the correct name and details on the small claims documents.


https://search.cro.ie/company/CompanyDetails.aspx?id=152213&type=B

Cross check this with the website and any invoices you got when buying the laptop.


Just type in Dell Ireland in the search field on the Company Registration office link above. It comes up with an address in Cherrywood.

longgonesilver

Can you roll back the latest update to prove that the laptop was usable until now, and fault was not recent?

That photo is fairly compelling evidence on its own.

floorpie

Thanks so much everyone for the info.

When putting in a claim, can you specify any outcome that you'd prefer? The same spec laptop is still above 2k so I'd rather it was repaired/replaced than lose money. Although any redress would be preferable to none.

longgonesilver wrote: »

Can you roll back the latest update to prove that the laptop was usable until now, and fault was not recent?

That photo is fairly compelling evidence on its own.

Yeah I could do that, good idea.

L1011

You can't specify

Its quite plausible that once someone other than a L1 call centre drone sees the case - e.g. whoever handles the court contact - that they'll send someone out to replace the motherboard on-site as they do with business customers.

paul71

floorpie wrote: »

Here are some pics of the offending speck if anybody's interested. See if you can spot it in the Overall view!

It raises up so I can't get it in focus very well. It's soldered (I believe) to at least 3 pins. If you zoom into Macro6.jpg you can see the joint between the two right-most pins.

Maybe I'm wrong that it's a fault that came in manufacturing, but I don't think so.

This is pure speculation on my part, but is that an insect that became soldered to the pins?

floorpie

paul71 wrote: »

This is pure speculation on my part, but is that an insect that became soldered to the pins?

It's hard to see from a 2d pic but looking through a lens it's more clearly smoothly "soldered" to the pins on the right. On the left it gets janky and rough.

Here's perhaps a better view showing two connected pins.

skinny90

As others said Soga will sort you out. However do not try to remove the ram or go messing with it. Leave it to dell to fix replace or refund

shane.

floorpie wrote: »

Here are some pics of the offending speck if anybody's interested. See if you can spot it in the Overall view!

It raises up so I can't get it in focus very well. It's soldered (I believe) to at least 3 pins. If you zoom into Macro6.jpg you can see the joint between the two right-most pins.

Maybe I'm wrong that it's a fault that came in manufacturing, but I don't think so.

Would removing the cover underneath not void your warranty?

Xterminator

shane. wrote: »

Would removing the cover underneath not void your warranty?

would that be the expired warranty they wont uphold?

shane.

Xterminator wrote: »

would that be the expired warranty they wont uphold?

Yep that’s the one

floorpie

shane. wrote: »

Would removing the cover underneath not void your warranty?

First thing I checked, and apparently not once you don't damage anything while upgrading. The manual walks you through upgrading all the components, and specifies this. I haven't performed any upgrades, and the issue I have couldn't happen through my own fault (imo).

Plus...what Xterminator said.

ronivek

Is the fleck definitely metallic? It seems a little unusual that a manufacturing fault of this nature would only manifest after a significant period of time has elapsed.

Also when you removed the RAM from the affected slot; did you also swap it with the RAM in the "good" slot to validate it's not just the RAM module itself which is the issue?

floorpie

ronivek wrote: »

Is the fleck definitely metallic?

I'm not certain that it's metallic, but under a lens and light it has the same "specularity" as all the other metal around it. I don't want to continuity test it to check.

I know for sure that it's stuck. It could be melted plastic, but either way, RAM connectors shouldn't be getting to a temperature that would melt anything. I can also see that it's smoothly connected to two pins (my pic in post #26 sort of shows this https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113910528&postcount=26).

Also when you removed the RAM from the affected slot; did you also swap it with the RAM in the "good" slot to validate it's not just the RAM module itself which is the issue?

With further testing, the RAM module that was in there is also broken. I don't want to test the other module much until I know Dell wont help (they're 16GB each so near 100e).

Here's a datasheet for a DDR4 SO-DIMM for anyone who's interested: https://www.samsung.com/semiconductor/global.semi/file/resource/2018/05/DDR4_8Gb_C_die_Unbuffered_SODIMM_Rev1.5_Apr.18.pdf

It's pins 90-100: ECC lines (which aren't connected), data strobes, data lines, ground. I don't know how grounded pins on the board could break RAM. Their Alienware laptops will automatically manage RAM voltage, but I can't find how XPSs set voltages. Perhaps it alters voltages if the RAM is unstable, I don't know.

It seems a little unusual that a manufacturing fault of this nature would only manifest after a significant period of time has elapsed.

I've had this same issue from the start, perhaps once a month, every two months. It's only since the latest update that it's consistently happening. I agree though that it is unusual.

ronivek

Also; what was in the automatic update? Did it include a BIOS update? It could be that they've added some additional RAM verification during POST... although I would probably expect some indication of an error code in that case.

The only other thing that jumps to mind is that sometimes small insect parts can become desiccated and "attach" to things; although usually you would find other evidence of insects if that was the case. I would expect it to be quite fragile if that was the case too.

In any case I think the cheapest approach would probably be to go the Small Claims route and argue something like:

• Has had an intermittent freezing issue since it was purchased; but it was "manageable" until recently and thus no contact was made with Dell.
• A forced Dell update suddenly caused the system to freeze every time it was powered on.
• Removing one of the RAM modules appears to fix the constant freezing issue.
• Noted what appears to be a manufacturing defect to the slot where the faulty RAM module sat.

I would be surprised if Dell didn't resolve it for you once they're notified by the court clerk anyway.

floorpie

Thanks!

ronivek wrote: »

Also; what was in the automatic update? Did it include a BIOS update? It could be that they've added some additional RAM verification during POST... although I would probably expect some indication of an error code in that case.

Yeah it updated everything: bios, drivers for every component, Windows update. It doesn't give an error in POST but it does now give a critical memory error in their built-in diagnostics thing that boots after crashes. I've read that Window's boot manager will log bad memory addresses and not use them, so perhaps it was doing this and the updates cleared the log, though I doubt it.

Further point of confusion, MemTest86 finds no errors for either module even though Dell's simple test does

paul71

shane. wrote: »

Would removing the cover underneath not void your warranty?

A warranty is not relevent to your statutory protections.

XMG

If you have no joy and end up having to keep it give your fans a bit off a clean and blow out the dust while you have it open

floorpie

XMG wrote: »

If you have no joy and end up having to keep it give your fans a bit off a clean and blow out the dust while you have it open

Thanks. The airflow is terrible imo. It has two big sponges that press up against the bottom case and, rather than filter dust and particles, trap it and push it against the heatsinks. 2018 Macbook Pros have a very similar heatsink/fan/CPU/GPU placement but don't seem to need those sponges.

floorpie

Update...

I left some details out from my initial post that I didn't realise were important until now. I bought this laptop with my own money, for my own personal use, but for ease of purchase and delivery I had it bought/delivered by/to the organization I'm in. I use it for my work (I'm a student) but it's not a "work laptop" per se (e.g. if I quit tomorrow it's still mine).

Dell noticed the delivery address and are now admitting that Irish purchasers do have statutory rights which extend beyond a warranty (they claimed otherwise before), but that I have no statutory rights as it was a B2B purchase. I'm dubious that a purchase being "for business" means that it's OK if it's shoddy, but I understand now that SOGA probably doesn't apply.

I guess I'm in the wrong subforum now Thanks all for the help

seagull

Tell them to catch a wake up, and that it's not a B2B sale. It doesn't matter that it was delivered to a business address. Many people have personal deliveries directed to their place of work because they know that someone will be there when the delivery is made. Even if it was B2B, SOGA still applies.

ronivek

floorpie wrote: »

Update...

I left some details out from my initial post that I didn't realise were important until now. I bought this laptop with my own money, for my own personal use, but for ease of purchase and delivery I had it bought/delivered by/to the organization I'm in. I use it for my work (I'm a student) but it's not a "work laptop" per se (e.g. if I quit tomorrow it's still mine).

You purchased the laptop and it’s for private use; I don’t see how this affects your statutory rights w.r.t. a small claims court proceeding.

Dell claiming it wasn’t a private sale because of the shipping address again has no bearing on your statutory rights: they can say whatever they want to try and shirk their responsibility but if I were a cynical man I might suggest this is how some managers and staff will try and save money by fobbing people off and hoping they don’t pursue things.

floorpie

seagull wrote: »

Tell them to catch a wake up, and that it's not a B2B sale. It doesn't matter that it was delivered to a business address. Many people have personal deliveries directed to their place of work because they know that someone will be there when the delivery is made. Even if it was B2B, SOGA still applies.

ronivek wrote: »

You purchased the laptop and it’s for private use; I don’t see how this affects your statutory rights w.r.t. a small claims court proceeding.

Dell claiming it wasn’t a private sale because of the shipping address again has no bearing on your statutory rights: they can say whatever they want to try and shirk their responsibility but if I were a cynical man I might suggest this is how some managers and staff will try and save money by fobbing people off and hoping they don’t pursue things.

It wasn't just the delivery address though, it was purchased BY the uni, under my name and with my funds, but....by the uni. I'll try get more details about the nature of this purchase. None of this had crossed my mind at all until talking to Dell there.

Re: small claims, even if I'm entitled to make a claim as a "business purchaser", I couldn't make a claim if I had to do it as a representative of the business, because I'm not one. If I can still do it as a private consumer then I would.

ronivek

floorpie wrote: »

It wasn't just the delivery address though, it was purchased BY the uni, under my name and with my funds, but....by the uni. I'll try get more details about the nature of this purchase. None of this had crossed my mind at all until talking to Dell there.

Re: small claims, even if I'm entitled to make a claim as a "business purchaser", I couldn't make a claim if I had to do it as a representative of the business, because I'm not one. If I can still do it as a private consumer then I would.

I’m no lawyer but if your University ‘sold’ you the laptop then I would expect your claim to be against them; Dell is merely a supplier in the transaction. Have you contacted your University’s store or IT department?

floorpie

ronivek wrote: »

I’m no lawyer but if your University ‘sold’ you the laptop then I would expect your claim to be against them; Dell is merely a supplier in the transaction. Have you contacted your University’s store or IT department?

Yeah, they just say that they don't have any agreements with Dell with respect to purchases or warranties etc. I know for sure that they'd pay to have it fixed if I said I couldn't afford it for example, but it'd be as a favour rather than because it's a business asset, which it isn't. I think I'll have to find out exactly how they purchased it before I take any further steps. I'm still dubious that businesses are expected to be on the hook for (what I see as) a defective product, but this seems to be the case beyond a certain time period

ronivek

floorpie wrote: »

Yeah, they just say that they don't have any agreements with Dell with respect to purchases or warranties etc. I know for sure that they'd pay to have it fixed if I said I couldn't afford it for example, but it'd be as a favour rather than because it's a business asset, which it isn't. I think I'll have to find out exactly how they purchased it before I take any further steps. I'm still dubious that businesses are expected to be on the hook for (what I see as) a defective product, but this seems to be the case beyond a certain time period

Maybe I’m missing something but I think the way your University is setup for this isn’t doing anyone any favours. They don’t seem to have any service agreement in place and at the same time they’re selling laptops which they’re purchasing on behalf of students; which leaves the student worse off than if they purchased directly.

I see where your coming from in terms of not wanting to seem to be taking advantage or causing problems for them but equally this was not a cheap purchase for you and you’re certainly not in the kind of position they are in terms of absorbing any losses.

floorpie

ronivek wrote: »

Maybe I’m missing something but I think the way your University is setup for this isn’t doing anyone any favours. They don’t seem to have any service agreement in place and at the same time they’re selling laptops which they’re purchasing on behalf of students; which leaves the student worse off than if they purchased directly.

I see where your coming from in terms of not wanting to seem to be taking advantage or causing problems for them but equally this was not a cheap purchase for you and you’re certainly not in the kind of position they are in terms of absorbing any losses.

I feel like I'm also missing something I'll post any updates