What’s the point of trade unions?

Macytoby

Of course they served a purpose years ago, but they don’t seem to actually do anything or serve any purpose anymore.

My own parents were always staunch trade unionists until a few years back when they both left their respective unions, citing that they’re little more than busy-bodies.

Have unions run their course at this point?

Feisar

They should be outlawed. If you don't want the job, leave!

Macytoby

Feisar wrote: »

They should be outlawed. If you don't want the job, leave!

I don’t think that they should be outlawed, I just for the life of me can’t understand why they still exist. We don’t have lockouts anymore.

Collie D

Feisar wrote: »

They should be outlawed. If you don't want the job, leave!

Does being in a union mean you don't want the job?

Also - outlawed? Smells a bit fascist/commie to me

Feisar

Collie D wrote: »

Does being in a union mean you don't want the job?

Also outlawed? Smells a bit fascist/commie to me

I meant if the pay/conditions aren't to ones satisfaction leave the job. I do laugh at Ryanair, people know what the company is like, don't apply/take a job there.

Macytoby

Collie D wrote: »

Does being in a union mean you don't want the job?

Also - outlawed? Smells a bit fascist/commie to me

I think the point was that contracts and salaries are generally very transparent. If you’re not happy with the pay, don’t take the job in the first place. If you don’t like the conditions, nobody’s forcing you to stay there.

amen

Feisar wrote: »

They should be outlawed. If you don't want the job, leave!

Of course they should be. Along with all Trade Associations, Employer Groups, Professional Representative Bodies.

Trade Unions are there to represent their members views and rights. In theory they ensure people are paid the same for the same job, that we get our required holidays, breaks etc

Feisar

Macytoby wrote: »

I think the point was that contracts and salaries are generally very transparent. If you’re not happy with the pay, don’t take the job in the first place. If you don’t like the conditions, nobody’s forcing you to stay there.

This was my point, cheers.

Bazzy

i personally don't feel unions serve a point they seem to be full of sh1t stirrers and loud mouths

The employment laws more than adequately prtect an employee

If you want to turn up to work ontime and do what your contract says and go home when your supposed to you'll more than likely never have a problem

Macytoby

amen wrote: »

In theory they ensure people are paid the same for the same job, that we get our required holidays, breaks etc

This is guaranteed by law. If you’re not getting these, report the company. Or leave.

Most companies are very strict on taking breaks and holidays etc., which is why you generally can’t carry over any days. They want to ensure that you use all of your accrued time with the year. A lot of places also require that you take at least one 2 week period off per calendar year.

elperello

I often notice that many of people who run down unions come from families whose prosperity was based on union membership and a good job.

Macytoby

elperello wrote: »

I often notice that many of people who run down unions come from families whose prosperity was based on union membership and a good job.

From your extensive body of research yeah?

Feisar

Macytoby wrote: »

This is guaranteed by law. If you’re not getting these, report the company. Or leave.

Most companies are very strict on taking breaks and holidays etc., which is why you generally can’t carry over any days. They want to ensure that you use all of your accrued time with the year. A lot of places also require that you take at least one 2 week period off per calendar year.

I think the two week thing applies more to financial institutions, it's so any irregularities will surface while the person is away. I think?

Macytoby

Feisar wrote: »

I think the two week thing applies more to financial institutions, it's so any irregularities will surface while the person is away. I think?

I work for a multi-national tech company, they’ve the same guidelines for everyone, not just in accounting/finance

elperello

Macytoby wrote: »

From your extensive body of research yeah?

Just from life experience.

Good enough for this discussion.

El_Duderino 09

up until a couple of months ago the economy was booming but real wages weren't rising. The gig economy means that you're technically self-employed, but in reality you're an employee without holiday pay or sick pay. And zero hour contracts mean you can be fired for asking for better conditions. These developments are some of the consequences of unions being diminished in recent decades.

People are living through a period where employee rights are being eroded and still ask what unions were for. The narrative around unions is almost entirely anti-union even when the very thing that would make conditions better, is collective bargaining.

Macytoby

elperello wrote: »

Just from life experience.

Good enough for this discussion.

Could you elaborate further?

Macytoby

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

up until a couple of months ago the economy was booming but real wages weren't rising. The gig economy means that you're technically self-employed, but in reality you're an employee without holiday pay or sick pay. And zero hour contracts mean you can be fires for asking for better conditions. These developments are some of the consequences of unions being diminished in recent decades.

People are living through a period where employee rights are being eroded and still ask what unions were for. The narrative around unions is almost entirely anti-union even when the very thing that would make conditions better, is collective bargaining.

Yeah, 0 hour contracts don’t exist anymore. Most places don’t offer sick pay.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2018/act/38/enacted/en/print.html

Rodney Bathgate

Brendan Ogle.

El Weirdo

Macytoby wrote: »

Most places don’t offer sick pay.

Maybe people should get together and try and rectify that. If only there was a way.

Macytoby

El Weirdo wrote: »

Maybe people should get together and try and rectify that. If only there was a way.

Why should someone get paid if they’re not working? If someone is out sick for a long period of time, the department of social protection looks after them financially.

joebloggs32

Macytoby wrote: »

Why should someone get paid if they’re not working? If someone is out sick for a long period of time, the department of social protection looks after them financially.

It may be of interest to a business and its customers not to have a person who is ill at work out of economic need. They might spread something like that new coronavirus I hear is spreading around.

Macytoby

joebloggs32 wrote: »

It may be of interest to a business and its customers not to have a person who is ill at work out of economic need. They might spread something like that new coronavirus I hear is spreading around.

Like I said, social protection ensures that nobody starves.

super_furry

Feisar wrote: »

I meant if the pay/conditions aren't to ones satisfaction leave the job. I do laugh at Ryanair, people know what the company is like, don't apply/take a job there.

Or you know, join a union and fight to improve conditions.....

Macytoby

super_furry wrote: »

Or you know, join a union and fight to improve conditions.....

Or why not look for another job? Conditions, benefits and pay are transparent, so why take the job in the first place?

Outkast_IRE

Just cause your not in a union , and dont feel you need one is not grounds to disparage them.

Who do you think is pushing government for minimum wage increases, no. of holiday days, pushing back against zero hour contracts. Its not the average joe with no union.

The unions are required to keep some employers in check. Look at amazon and the stuff they try and get away with for toilet breaks etc.

If there were no unions you would be working 14hr days and be glad for it.

If your so anti-union get a ticket to china and do some factory work there for a year and see how your tune changes. People literally jumping off buildings rather than carrying on with their monotonous jobs, its modern day economic slavery and they get thrown a few crumbs to keep them happy.

Its only the extremely privilged that could truely ask that question about why trade unions are needed and mean it seriously.

Macytoby

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

The unions are required to keep some employers in check. Look at amazon and the stuff they try and get away with for toilet breaks etc.

I’d give my left nut to work in Amazons Burlington rd office. A few people I know work there and the benefits are incredible.

Also my original point was that they serve no purpose now. We have minimum requirements which must be met by law.

El_Duderino 09

Macytoby wrote: »

Yeah, 0 hour contracts don’t exist anymore. Most places don’t offer sick pay.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2018/act/38/enacted/en/print.html

Yeah, the zero hour contracts are alive anf kicking in the UK where they also have the same problems with weakened unions. As is the Gig Economy where you pretend you're self employed so your employer doesn't have to pay you sick pay or holiday pay or overtime etc. It a big step backwards in workers rights. Yet people ask, without irony, what trade unions were for.

Tails142

Macytoby wrote: »

I’d give my left nut to work in Amazons Burlington rd office. A few people I know work there and the benefits are incredible.

Also my original point was that they serve no purpose now. We have minimum requirements which must be met by law.

Laws can be changed pretty quickly, and how do you think they came to be in the first place.

This thread is a bit like the old clearasil ad... But you don't have spots... I hope you get the reference.

Anyway it's a free country, people can join unions if they want to, or not, it's not actually compulsory

Outkast_IRE

Macytoby wrote: »

I’d give my left nut to work in Amazons Burlington rd office. A few people I know work there and the benefits are incredible.

Also my original point was that they serve no purpose now. We have minimum requirements which must be met by law.

Yeah the lads in the fancy office are grand so why would the plebs in the warehouse need a union either.

Back to fantasy land where employers are all generous and kind and surely will not try and take advantage of you. The fact that billionaires exist means that thousands if not hundreds of thousands have been exploited to get them there.

Macytoby

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah, the zero hour contracts are alive anf kicking in the UK where they also have the same problems with weakened unions. As is the Gig Economy where you pretend you're self employed so your employer doesn't have to pay you sick pay or holiday pay or overtime etc. It a big step backwards in workers rights. Yet people ask, without irony, what trade unions were for.

This isn’t the U.K. Also, you’re referring to a fixed term contract, ironically enough the majority of the public service are contractors, and the public service is the most over unionised employers in the country. I was a contractor for the NTA and the majority of their staff on Harcourt are contractors.

The gig economy exists because people are hired to do specific things within a given timeframe. This is commonplace especially in IT

Macytoby

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Yeah the lads in the fancy office are grand so why would the plebs in the warehouse need a union either.

Back to fantasy land where employers are all generous and kind and surely will not try and take advantage of you. The fact that billionaires exist means that thousands if not hundreds of thousands have been exploited to get them there.

Why are you using UK examples for Ireland? Everyone know the U.K. is a dump

biko

Unions definitely fill a function to this day.

Jet Black

In my current employment they've successfully negotiated an extra pay increase on top of a basic one. My employer also likes to make up their own rules or remove entitlements and in the past when you went to them they normally have the same reaction to people on this thread, if you don't like it leave, but the union stepped in on a few occasions to fix this.
Another time I was in trouble for something I shouldn't have got the blame for and was going to loose my job but they helped with that too. It really does depend on they people you have. Previous employment union membership was mandatory and they couldn't give a feck about us. They often worked with the management to go against the staff.

gmisk

I have been in CS a fair while at this stage, been a union member on and off.
They did help out hugely when I was refused permission to move to a new role (department was arguing it was at same level as the current role despite pay being higher in new role).
Dragged on for a while but contacted union and issue resolved within a week

LuasSimon

Unions are important in the workplace particularly in private industry. If you have a unionised workplace you might not gain much additional benefits but you have a fair chance of hanging onto what you have plus protection in terms of disciplinary matters or redundancy been voluntary etc . The problem for many unions is that very few people are interested anymore in been the union person and you then may end up with the wrong person.

If your union disappears or gets too weak lots of benefits like Pension Contributions,Holidays,Sick Pay Schemes, etc etc ..pay itself will be attacked to the employers benefit. Margaret Thatcher destroyed many UK unions and now many many industries are minimum wage with little if any benefits. Its starting to happen here too in the ever growing Unskilled jobs which can be any job at this stage . When the Unions are gone workers will realize how important they were but it'll be too late then.

Macytoby

LuasSimon wrote: »

Unions are important in the workplace particularly in private industry. If you have a unionised workplace you might not gain much additional benefits but you have a fair chance of hanging onto what you have plus protection in terms of disciplinary matters or redundancy been voluntary etc . The problem for many unions is that very few people are interested anymore in been the union person and you then may end up with the wrong person.

If your union disappears or gets too weak lots of benefits like Pension Contributions,Holidays,Sick Pay Schemes, etc etc ..pay itself will be attacked to the employers benefit. Margaret Thatcher destroyed many UK unions and now many many industries are minimum wage with little if any benefits. Its starting to happen here too in the ever growing Unskilled jobs which can be any job at this stage . When the Unions are gone workers will realize how important they were but it'll be too late then.

Most of the private industry functions perfectly and thrives without unions.

Low skilled jobs are paid low because they’re low skilled.

amen

Macytoby wrote: »

This is guaranteed by law. If you’re not getting these, report the company. Or leave.

Most companies are very strict on taking breaks and holidays etc., which is why you generally can’t carry over any days. They want to ensure that you use all of your accrued time with the year. A lot of places also require that you take at least one 2 week period off per calendar year.

Yes but the laws are there due to A: Unions/Workers campaigning for then B: EU Law.

Macytoby

amen wrote: »

Yes but the laws are there due to A: Unions/Workers campaigning for then B: EU Law.

Read the initial question: what purpose do they serve now?

Outkast_IRE

Macytoby wrote: »

Why are you using UK examples for Ireland? Everyone know the U.K. is a dump

What UK example ? Amazon is opening a Dublin Warehouse currently so it could not be at a more relevant example ?

LuasSimon

Macytoby wrote: »

Most of the private industry functions perfectly and thrives without unions.

Low skilled jobs are paid low because they’re low skilled.

Yes Boss or should that be Mr Goodman!

LuasSimon

Macytoby wrote: »

Most of the private industry functions perfectly and thrives without unions.

Low skilled jobs are paid low because they’re low skilled.

The only thing that thrives in private industry without unions is the owners Bank balances and the bosses salary whilst the workers live paycheck to paycheck!

Macytoby

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

What UK example ? Amazon is opening a Dublin Warehouse currently so it could not be at a more relevant example ?

And they’ll be governed by Irish law, which allows for toilet breaks, rest periods and whole host of other things.

Outkast_IRE

Macytoby wrote: »

And they’ll be governed by Irish law, which allows for toilet breaks, rest periods and whole host of other things.

How would you like it if your employer was timing how long it took to take a ****. That is unfortunately Amazon down to a tee.

Macytoby

LuasSimon wrote: »

The only thing that thrives in private industry without unions is the owners Bank balances and the bosses salary whilst the workers live paycheck to paycheck!

Go down to the Docklands and you’ll see tech companies with the happiest staff in the country. None of these recognise unions in any way, shape or form.

Macytoby

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

How would you like it if your employer was timing how long it took to take a ****. That is unfortunately Amazon down to a tee.

Pretty sure you’re allowed 30 uninterrupted minutes by law. If it takes you longer than that, you should see a doctor or eat more fibre.

Plenty of people here don't appear to understand the relationship between unions and their own positions.

Without unions, conditions would have remained bad and pay low. Systematic abuse of staff was rife and in order to get the job you had to be willing to work longer and harder than the next guy.

Unions have achieved the majority of rights that workers enjoy now from minimum wages to safety in the work place. Government's wouldn't have introduced half of what they have without pressure from groups.

Union membership also helps to avoid victimising, bullying and underhanded practices as the staff take group action when the one is mistreated.

They also provide group and financial support for legal actions that people may not be able to afford on their own. The Garda gra for example offer legal assistance to Gardai that find themselves the subject of a criminal allegation.

Most recently the construction industry union negotiated pay rises for apprentices and still to this day provide pension and insurance schemes to it's members.

I don't understand the desire to get rid of them or indeed the short view taken.

A, if you aren't in one then why does it bother you that they exist?

B, If you don't negotiate and have group support then your unemployed or taken advantage of.

Someone mentioned Ryanair. By that person's logic, there would be no Ryanair staff, no airline bringing competitive rates to the market and a few thousand extra people on the dole

Ban them, see how it effects your own career long term.

Macytoby

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Plenty of people here don't appear to understand the relationship between unions and their own positions.

Without unions, conditions would have remained bad and pay low. Systematic abuse of staff was rife and in order to get the job you had to be willing to work longer and harder than the next guy.

Unions have achieved the majority of rights that workers enjoy now from minimum wages to safety in the work place. Government's wouldn't have introduced half of what they have without pressure from groups.

Union membership also helps to avoid victimising, bullying and underhanded practices as the staff take group action when the one is mistreated.

They also provide group and financial support for legal actions that people may not be able to afford on their own. The Garda gra for example offer legal assistance to Gardai that find themselves the subject of a criminal allegation.

Most recently the construction industry union negotiated pay rises for apprentices and still to this day provide pension and insurance schemes to it's members.

I don't understand the desire to get rid of them or indeed the short view taken.

A, if you aren't in one then why does it bother you that they exist?

B, If you don't negotiate and have group support then your unemployed or taken advantage of.

Someone mentioned Ryanair. By that person's logic, there would be no Ryanair staff, no airline bringing competitive rates to the market and a few thousand extra people on the dole

Ban them, see how it effects your own career long term.

HR departments deal with most of those things now.

Outkast_IRE

Macytoby wrote: »

Pretty sure you’re allowed 30 uninterrupted minutes by law. If it takes you longer than that, you should see a doctor or eat more fibre.

Thats a lunch break, what if you need the toilet outside of your dedicated break would you like to be timed.

I would imagine the true answer is its something you have never had to worry about or consider.

Sunny Disposition

Can never understand ordinary PAYE workers opposing unions, it makes no sense. Was in a Union for about a year myself as a young man, self employed since. Preferred dealing with unionised subcontractors and always recognised and dealt with my own employees unions. In one sense it costs more, but not very much if you’re doing things right anyway. Don’t act the bollocks as an employer and the unions won’t be problematic.
In construction unions have a very important role, and Id credit them with huge improvements in safety over the last 30 years. Way back there were far more deaths on sites, often due to carelessness by employers.

StackSteevens

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

How would you like it if your employer was timing how long it took to take a ****. That is unfortunately Amazon down to a tee.

I'd promptly apply for the position as toilet break timer - presumably there is one. Rewarding work, well paid and not too challenging - plus one quickly gets to know which of one's work colleagues have weak bladders.

But for me, the big question is: if I'm the toilet break timer, then who times my toilet breaks?