The National Party

nachouser

Bang of a Farage adorer from some of these posts.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122145736#Comment_122145736

Well, the thread has already been trashed by someone who had no clue what Socialism or Communism is, so we can hardly be surprised when someone else comes along and struggles to understand the meaning of Fascism.

And all in an effort to derail the thread topic by posters who, more than likely, hold a number of the same views as the party in question.

Hotblack Desiato

It was like a tag team, as soon as the stupid argument about socialism ended and the poster responsible threadbanned, we immediately got another starting a stupid argument about the definition of fascism and how the NP couldn't possibly be fascist because they haven't murdered six million Jews yet. 🙄

I.R.Y.E.D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122146679#Comment_122146679

Well they did state that migrants should be left to drown, and accused Marcus Rashford of being a paedophile because they were involved in a food charity under their previous accounts

Shoog

The NP maybe a complete joke of a party - but that in no way excludes them from been actual fascists.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122145227#Comment_122145227

No, that's not what the user claimed. Go back and read it again, and see the difference between what the user claimed and what you said they claimed.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122146694#Comment_122146694

The National Party and I have different perspectives on migration.

I agree that migration should be controlled, yes — but my reason for that is not the same reason that the National Party have — or the BNP, or any other far-right, nationalist party.

In other words, controlling immigration is not a "far-right" issue.

The National Party do not own the topic, nor should they.

Most reasonable people, like me, believe that immigration is a good thing; a net positive, both economically and socially. But we also similarly believe that unlimited numbers is unsustainable and a bad thing; it cannot be managed. We're not xenophobic or racist or hate-filled; we simply look at the pragmatism of unlimited migration and conclude that this is not sustainable. Most reasonable people agree with this.

Far-right, nationalist parties do not agree with me. They have concerns about migration — for sure, it's undeniable. But they have a tendency to reject all migration — including reasonable migration that I support — on racial grounds. I reject those racial reasons, and it is the primary reason why I could never support the National Party to begin with.

So whilst you can attempt to undermine my character as a means of dismissing my arguments; the very essence of Ad hominem, my arguments against the National Party stand on their own merits, as indeed do my arguments in favour of controlling migration aside from those.

nachouser

Remigration. Yawn.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122147219#Comment_122147219

It won't happen, because the party itself will never attain power.

Their online manifesto is nothing more than a dream. A pretty stupid dream at that.

They're clowns. And like all clowns, I suggest laughing at them rather than taking them seriously.

nachouser

In the same way you take UKIP and Farage seriously? And your jk avatar?

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122147303#Comment_122147303

If you want to make a point regarding the National Party, I'm happy to answer.

nachouser

These guys? Seriously, nothing more needs to be said.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122147232#Comment_122147232

You can say they're clowns but clowns of this kind can be genuinely dangerous. The Jo Cox killer originated in a similar group and they might not have political weight but the rhetoric that they spread is dangerous. It's these kinds of people that egged on the riots etc. So I think it's pretty foolish to view them as an outright non entity.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122147404#Comment_122147404

All political extremes have the capacity for violence, I've never doubted that.

paul71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122147326#Comment_122147326

Bangs of self appointed spokesperson.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122147443#Comment_122147443

If you look at the attacks on canvassers and poster crews over the past week, you see a definite trend that doesn't involving bothsidesing. It is far right attacks on left candidates and non-Irish candidates.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122147443#Comment_122147443

In this case, the far right have actively been engaging in violence….

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122147443#Comment_122147443

There's oliticial extremes that are "having the capacity" for violence and then there's politicial extremes actually going out and BEING violent.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122147232#Comment_122147232

They're dangerous clowns though. Scapegoating people, inciting riots, stiring up hated by spreading xenophobic lies - you can't really suggesting laughing at this or not taking it seriously.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122149056#Comment_122149056

As bad as many National Party members are, they've never murdered anyone.

However, they at least shine a light on an important issue — namely, murders recently committed by immigrants in this country. That is not a non-issue, however much I disagree with how they react (such as the Dublin riots). We had the homophobic Sligo murders; we had the senseless murder of Aisling Murphy; and we had the crazed attempted murders of children on Parnell Street (all in the space of 2-3 years).

Again, I disagree with their promotion of rioting, but the issue itself is not a non-issue.

It's a legitimate issue and no other political party are speaking about it. Instead, the issue gets quietly ignored.

HalloweenJack

And how is these people attacking canvassers and candidates related to immigrants committing murder?

I'll save you the further whataboutery: it's not.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122149220#Comment_122149220

Clearly attacks on election candidates is unacceptable and beyond the pale. I don't know whether those committing these attacks are members of the National Party, or whether they are just scumbags intent on causing harm (or perhaps a combination of both).

But if we are claiming to care about violence — which is a legitimate issue to be concerned about — then that must also apply to the murders I've talked about, as well as the source of those murders. That is what many National Party members speak about.

The shame, for me at least, is that no other reasonable party is speaking about it. It's left to fester in the National Party and the party will only grow if this issue continues to go ignored by mainstream parties.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122149180#Comment_122149180

As bad as many National Party members are, they've never murdered anyone.

This honestly reads as though you're defending their antics - unless they actually kill someone.

The rest of your post is blame-shifting: the immigrants did this and that, so…. (shurgs shoulders)

You can't call them "clowns" and justifty their actions in the same breath.

HalloweenJack

Clearly, you're trying to pull the conversation in a different direction.

You began by trying to downplay the threat of groups such as the NP. When pointed out that, in spite of their low numbers, politicians and canvassers have been targeted by people with similar beliefs, a sign that these types DO represent a real threat, you then tried to bring in violence committed by immigrants.

That is not the debate. There are plenty of other threads where you can bring up violence committed by immigrants. This one is about the National Party and a tangent that emerged was violence by committed by those with similar beliefs while you try to convince others these types are not a threat. The evidence suggests otherwise; even in small numbers, they are.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122149293#Comment_122149293

My point was to say that the National Party are at least talking about a legitimate issue in a way that no other mainstream party is - and that's a mistake.

They shouldn't be allowed to own that topic.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122149354#Comment_122149354

No they're not - I'd be a lot more understanding if they just "talked" about the issue.

Also, you're defneding them again, despite aparently seeing them as "clowns".

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122149382#Comment_122149382

It's the inconsistency that's glaring.

When that man tried to murder children on Parnell Street, the National Party used that as a means of promoting the anger and rioting in response. As a consequence of which, the National Party is condemned.

When George Floyd was murdered in cold blood, BLM and other far-left organisations promoted riots on a much larger scale across the US - and these organisations are held in the highest esteem.

Here's my point: when it comes to far-left induced rioting it's welcomed, when the far-right do it, it's condemned.

That hypocrisy is palpable.

I despise both forms. I'm consistent.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122149404#Comment_122149404

Woah woah woah - attacking immigrants didn't work and attacking the far-left won't either. This is nothing to do with BLM or George Floyd and you know it, so quit the deflecting.

And for the love of Christ, can you stop defending the far-right using violence or at least come out and say you support the National Party? Because everything you said since you called them "clowns" has been either been whataboutery or thinly-veiled support.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122149428#Comment_122149428

I don't support the National Party, and I never would. Nor do I support or defend violence.

I am simply adding nuance to this discussion. Whilst we have many legitimate reasons to criticise the National Party, we cannot invent reasons out of thin air. Only yesterday two claims were made which had no basis in evidence. I was condemned for just asking for the evidence.

Second to that, it's absolutely relevant to point out inconsistencies i.e. my point about how rioting is considered bad only if one side engages in it (the side you happen to disagree with). In the context of the US example I gave, the rioting was framed as "protests" and a "movement".

It goes back to the Orwell article I cited yesterday, how events can be framed as positive or negative depending on our own political persuasion.

HalloweenJack

You're muddying the waters. Your claim from the beginning was they (or groups of their ilk) are too insignificant to pose a threat. This was shown not to be the case.

So you shifted to violence committed by immigrants and now you're on to both-sidesing, all because your insistence that these fringe groups do not represent a threat was proven to be untrue. It has sweet **** all to do with nuance.