Sean Russell statue defaced overnight

gibsmedat

What is the point?

WrenBoy

They do it in America so its cool

blanch152

Why hasn't it been taken down? Ireland's leading Nazi collaborator and we have a statue to him.

WrenBoy

blanch152 wrote: »

Why hasn't it been taken down? Ireland's leading Nazi collaborator and we have a statue to him.

"Russell's legacy is deeply contested. Both Sinn Féin and Republican Sinn Féin continue to commemorate him as an Irish patriot. Others condemn him as a Nazi collaborator. It had been said he "cared little for Nazi ideology" and he was accused of being a communist spy.[10] Irish historian Brian Hanley suggests that Russell was not a Nazi but concludes that his letters to his German contacts "betray astonishing political naiveté".

Russell himself told the Germans that "I am not a Nazi. I’m not even pro-German. I am an Irishman fighting for the independence of Ireland." and that "If it suits Germany to give us help to achieve independence, I am willing to accept it, but no more, and there must be no strings attached"[11][12]

Erwin Lahousen said that Russell disagreed with Nazi philosophy and strongly rejected attempts to convert him"

Life isn't black and white.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

Why hasn't it been taken down? Ireland's leading Nazi collaborator and we have a statue to him.

Collaborator? We weren't at war with Germany - we had been at war with Britain less than 20 years earlier and they had partitioned our nation on threat of 'immediate and terrible war'.

You know this yet you incessantly persist with your Anglo-centric take.

paw patrol

blanch152 wrote: »

Why hasn't it been taken down? Ireland's leading Nazi collaborator and we have a statue to him.

you haven't a clue about irish history if you think that.
in fact, you are a moron .

Hrududu

Nice break for Luke Kelly

IRE60

there's an interesting podcast on Three Castles Burning on statues in Dublin and some of the controversy associated with them. Russell figures in the story. I dont know much about him, but they maintain he took the Machiavelli approach in dealing with the Germans 'my enemies enemy is my friend' type thing. Well worth a listen

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Collaborator? We weren't at war with Germany - we had been at war with Britain less than 20 years earlier and they had partitioned our nation on threat of 'immediate and terrible war'.

You know this yet you incessantly persist with your Anglo-centric take.

paw patrol wrote: »

you haven't a clue about irish history if you think that.
in fact, you are a moron .

https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/oh-heres-to-adolph-hitler-the-ira-and-the-nazis/

You might want to have a read of this, which sets out very clearly, the extent of IRA collaboration with the Nazis, including Russell's acts.

WrenBoy

IRE60 wrote: »

there's an interesting podcast on Three Castles Burning on statues in Dublin and some of the controversy associated with them. Russell figures in the story. I dont know much about him, but they maintain he took the Machiavelli approach in dealing with the Germans 'my enemies enemy is my friend' type thing. Well worth a listen

He also went to the Soviets and Americans to get arms and money. So I assume he's simultaneously a Nazi, Communist and Free Market Capitalist.

gibsmedat

Republicans sweating this morning not knowing whether to condemn or congratulate.

The absolute state of Irish Republicanism in 2020.

OptimusTractor

WrenBoy wrote: »

He also went to the Soviets and Americans to get arms and money. So I assume he's simultaneously a Nazi, Communist and Free Market Capitalist.

But he was definitely not a pornstar.

imme

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Collaborator? We weren't at war with Germany - we had been at war with Britain less than 20 years earlier and they had partitioned our nation on threat of 'immediate and terrible war'.

You know this yet you incessantly persist with your Anglo-centric take.

From the Merriam Webster dictionary (one of the definitions of collaborator) :

"someone who works with another person or group"

I always thought the collaboration with the Nazis was a tough thing for the Shinners to explain/excuse,

Some things don't change.

For Forks Sake

WrenBoy wrote: »

He also went to the Soviets and Americans to get arms and money. So I assume he's simultaneously a Nazi, Communist and Free Market Capitalist.

Hodors Appletart

I'm not a shinner, I've never voted for them

but in the context of irish independence or struggle against britain I think it was ok for those involved to seek help from wherever it was available, be that nazi, commie or yank

i certainly wouldn't be ascribing sympathy to or agreement with those ideologies to those people and i feel it's nothing more than political point scoring in this day and age

did he seek help from an enemy of britain? yes he did

does that mean he was in agreement with nazi ideology? laughable to think this is true

rational people cannot think this to be true it's stupid

John Hutton

His statue was previously defaced years ago because he was a communist !

JohnnyFlash

No need for this. The problem with wanting statues torn down and defaced is that eventually the mob will come for your ones.

endainoz

gibsmedat wrote: »

Republicans sweating this morning not knowing whether to condemn or congratulate.

The absolute state of Irish Republicanism in 2020.

I'd say it's stronger than ever to be honest. More inclusive than it has been for years anyways, look at the GE.

Back to the point, was this guy anti gay or what? Dosent look like a defacing to me, more like a decoration.

gibsmedat

John Hutton wrote: »

His statue was previously defaced years ago because he was a communist !

It was defaced in 2005 by "anti fascists"

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/anti-fascists-behead-statue-of-russell-26203251.html


Protected in 2020 by "anti fascists"

The rest writing of history should be a worrying trend.

Soon we'll only have the Santised version with what really happened forgotten.
We'll end up making the same mistakes again because no one will know the terrible repercussions they brought.

endainoz

SouthWesterly wrote: »

The rest writing of history should be a worrying trend.

Soon we'll only have the Santised version with what really happened forgotten.
We'll end up making the same mistakes again because no one will know the terrible repercussions they brought.

If only there was some way to document history physically on paper.....

Who the fcuk gets their history from statues?

osarusan

SouthWesterly wrote: »

The rest writing of history should be a worrying trend.

Soon we'll only have the Santised version with what really happened forgotten.
We'll end up making the same mistakes again because no one will know the terrible repercussions they brought.

I wouldn't disagree with your point but I also wouldn't see any reason to believe that the existing writing of history is always 'what really happened', or that it's always less agenda-laden than what it might be replaced with.

I lived in Japan for years and the content of their history textbooks has been an ongoing debate for decades. Different prefectures get to choose the textbooks (from an approved list) to be used in schools in that prefecture, so depending on how nationalist the politics was at prefectural govt level, the history textbook chosen will be more or less sanitised regarding Japan's WW2 and Pre-WW2 activities in China. Politics was literally controlling the (significantly different) versions of history that children would receive.

China objects whenever one of the more nationalist textbooks gets chosen, and there have been various attempts to come up with a textbook that has been agreed upon by both Japanese and Chinese historians, but politicians on both sides would rather use the issue as a political football than agree on it.

Nermal

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Collaborator? We weren't at war with Germany - we had been at war with Britain less than 20 years earlier and they had partitioned our nation on threat of 'immediate and terrible war'.

You know this yet you incessantly persist with your Anglo-centric take.

It gives me such pleasure to quote from the Edward Colston thread:

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Don't be such broflake, you'll be okay.

So here's the thing ... saying whether he was a Nazi collaborator or not is missing the point. The point was he worked closely together with the Nazis to further the IRAs goals. A party that were widely known at the time as extreme racists and enemies of freedom everywhere they went. Granted the Holocaust wasn't widely known about yet but the Nuremberg laws were.

Today we have most political parties who are happy to jump into bed with Sinn Fein to further their own agendas, despite their past. This is what Sean Russell did. Further your own ideology no matter what the cost. And had he succeeded, many of us wouldn't be here as Hitler didn't rate the "Celtic" Irish very high on his master race hierarchy of peoples. The Anglo Irish would have fared better.

Having said all that, they should leave his statue alone.

Dyr

I wonder will Varadker come out and clearly condemn this, given his previous statements.

Here's what German Intelligence thought of Russell:
“The Irish man was a hyper-sensitive Celt who, however willing he might be to use the Germans for his own political ends, regarded the Nazi philosophy as anathema... Russell was the only one of the I.R.A. with whom I dealt who was a real Irish Republican of the old school”.

I wonder if their opinion of Eoin O'Duffy was more flattering, eh Blanch?

biko

For a movement that started specifically with black Americans killed by law enforcement it has sure got wings.

ChikiChiki

Just walked by it 5 mins ago. Guards there and two lads cleaning it.

c.p.w.g.w

blanch152 wrote: »

Why hasn't it been taken down? Ireland's leading Nazi collaborator and we have a statue to him.

He is also a Russian & American supporter, as he also went to those countries looking for ARMS

smurgen

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

He is also a Russian & American supporter, as he also went to those countries looking for ARMS

I'd say it's any port in a storm kind of thing. I have no strong feelings either way. But I wouldn't be outraged. It's just a bit of paint ffs.

jacool

Out of curiosity, does anyone know what is says under the statue i.e. how is he described there?

sabat

Rainbow cultists.

gibsmedat

I find it hard to understand the gay angle here?

Are they just looking for attention or what?

JohnnyFlash

gibsmedat wrote: »

I find it hard to understand the gay angle here?

Are they just looking for attention or what?

Russell = Nazi
Nazi = Bad

There’s no nuance or real thought processes with mobs. And if you think this mob is bad then wait until the other mob get going.

endainoz

endainoz wrote: »

If only there was some way to document history physically on paper.....

Who the fcuk gets their history from statues?

It sparks a conversation. But it's just the beginning of a rewriting of events

By the way, the third word in your final sentence is spelled incorrectly

Hamsterchops

jacool wrote: »

Out of curiosity, does anyone know what is says under the statue i.e. how is he described there?

"He befriended Nazi ideology so that Ireland could be free from the clutches of the evil Empire". probably.

Detail: https://www.thejournal.ie/sean-russell-statue-3549072-Aug2017/

Gregor Samsa

It's been contentious from the very start.

His statue was first defaced in 1952 with paint, less than a year after it was unveiled. In 1953, it's arm was broken off by a right-wing group who objected to him having looked for weapons from the Soviet Union before he went to the Nazis. The original pose depicted him with a clenched fist, which some also saw as a Communist symbol that was disrespectful to him.



A new stone version of the statue was put up in 1965, with the arms drawn in to stop a repeat of that attack. Then in 2005 his head got lobbed off by an anti-fascist group.




The current version - with arms in and this time made of bronze, which is more difficult to break, was put up in 2009. But the graffiti continued.

At one point in 2009, swastika flags were placed on the pedestal.



Someone then came along and turned the swastikas into Peace symbols.



There's never a dull moment with that statue.

sabat

endainoz wrote: »

If only there was some way to document history physically on paper.....

Who the fcuk gets their history from statues?

Archaeologists?

c.p.w.g.w

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Russell = Nazi
Nazi = Bad

There’s no nuance or real thought processes with mobs. And if you think this mob is bad then wait until the other mob get going.

This is what rote learning has lead us to...learn off information, unable to analysis it, discuss it or see the nuance of historical/politic events

paw patrol

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/oh-heres-to-adolph-hitler-the-ira-and-the-nazis/

You might want to have a read of this, which sets out very clearly, the extent of IRA collaboration with the Nazis, including Russell's acts.

it may do but it's inaccurate . woefully so.


read post quoted below.

WrenBoy wrote: »

He also went to the Soviets and Americans to get arms and money. So I assume he's simultaneously a Nazi, Communist and Free Market Capitalist.

CrankyHaus

The Nazis weren't helping him for the craic. They saw a benefit from making common cause with the IRA. Thus the IRA agreed to assist the Nazis war effort.

IMO the IRA bombings in the UK in 1939-40 had zero benefit to Ireland, though thankfully they didn't do much damage or provide any real advantage to the Nazis.

If it was a "blueshirt" teaming up with Hitler republicans would never let you hear the end of it either.

That said I think the statue should stand, unvandalised.

c.p.w.g.w

CrankyHaus wrote: »

The Nazis weren't helping him for the craic. They saw a benefit from making common cause with the IRA. Thus the IRA agreed to assist the Nazis war effort.

IMO the IRA bombings in the UK in 1939-40 had zero benefit to Ireland, though thankfully they didn't do much damage or provide any real advantage to the Nazis.

If it was a "blueshirt" teaming up with Hitler republicans would never let you hear the end of it either.

That said I think the statue should stand, unvandalised.

Ah these blueshirts

Cal4567

Statues. That's so last week, or was it even the week before?

Why are always the last to the party in Ireland.

ThewhiteJesus

Just leave Luke Kellys statue alone ffs !

blanch152

Bambi wrote: »

I wonder will Varadker come out and clearly condemn this, given his previous statements.

Here's what German Intelligence thought of Russell:
“The Irish man was a hyper-sensitive Celt who, however willing he might be to use the Germans for his own political ends, regarded the Nazi philosophy as anathema... Russell was the only one of the I.R.A. with whom I dealt who was a real Irish Republican of the old school”.

I wonder if their opinion of Eoin O'Duffy was more flattering, eh Blanch?

Another one who didn't bother reading the link and educating themselves.

"The IRA’s statements drew angry responses from Irish Freedom, published by the Connolly Association, and Irish Workers Weekly, published by the Communist Party of Ireland, who criticised the IRA for inviting ‘German soldiers to come and devastate the country they talk of freeing’. These papers also noted how the IRA and their ‘strange bedfellow General O’Duffy’ were lauding as ‘liberators’ powers that held ‘Abyssinia, Austria, Albania and Czechoslovakia’ in subjection. The reference to the former Blueshirt leader was apt. During 1940 IRA officers approached O’Duffy and asked him to become an intelligence operative for the organisation. Irish Freedom noted with disgust how the Nazis seemed to have been able to ‘corrupt’ some of the leading Irish republicans."


"Indeed, by 1940 republicans and former Blueshirts were mingling in a variety of small pro-German organisations in Dublin. What is clear is that at least a section of the IRA leadership was attracted by Nazism’s successes."

The thing is, by the time O'Duffy was interested in Nazism, he was long expelled from Fine Gael and the Blueshirts and was talking to the IRA and their supporters about their shared interests.

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/oh-heres-to-adolph-hitler-the-ira-and-the-nazis/

You might want to have a read of this, which sets out very clearly, the extent of IRA collaboration with the Nazis, including Russell's acts.

blanch152

paw patrol wrote: »

it may do but it's inaccurate . woefully so.


read post quoted below.

Historical journal versus unsubstantiated claim from anonymous internet poster.

You pick the latter? Funny.

paw patrol

blanch152 wrote: »

Historical journal versus unsubstantiated claim from anonymous internet poster.

You pick the latter? Funny.

yes if its full of ****e as it is.
even wikipedia has more references and quotes than that rameish you posted.


he is a hero of irish nationalism , if you don't get that then you know nothing on the subject

CrankyHaus

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Ah these blueshirts

Well done. You proved my point about the double standards on this issue. I criticise both, instead of attempting to absolve my favoured side of any responsibility for its connections to Fascists.

imme

gibsmedat wrote: »

This is one of the funniest things I've seen on Boards in a while.

From recent events in USA to how that was transported and translated to the UK to Ireland.

Now this AFA people with their leaflet, are they the Anti Fascist Alliance or Action.

Never heard of them before. Putting the call out for the alphabet soup of 'progressives' -to protect a protest against a protest being hijacked what a mind fook.

Bonniedog

What did Russell do on the gay lads?

The Cubans were torturing them and locking them up until a few years back and lefties never opened their bake.

Why dont they spray the Cuban Embassy?

imme

Bonniedog wrote: »

What did Russell do on the gay lads?

The Cubans were torturing them and locking them up until a few years back and lefties never opened their bake.

Why dont they spray the Cuban Embassy?

Gays were sent to concentration camps, this is Pride Week, could be that.

is_that_so

WrenBoy wrote: »

"Russell's legacy is deeply contested. Both Sinn Féin and Republican Sinn Féin continue to commemorate him as an Irish patriot. Others condemn him as a Nazi collaborator. It had been said he "cared little for Nazi ideology" and he was accused of being a communist spy.[10] Irish historian Brian Hanley suggests that Russell was not a Nazi but concludes that his letters to his German contacts "betray astonishing political naiveté".

Russell himself told the Germans that "I am not a Nazi. I’m not even pro-German. I am an Irishman fighting for the independence of Ireland." and that "If it suits Germany to give us help to achieve independence, I am willing to accept it, but no more, and there must be no strings attached"[11][12]

Erwin Lahousen said that Russell disagreed with Nazi philosophy and strongly rejected attempts to convert him"

Life isn't black and white.

It is when you have a pot of paint in your hand!