Eviction Ban extended

curious minds

Eviction Ban has been extended until July 20th

and possibly will be extended further ......due to political interests and games

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/the-big-read-rents-will-be-frozen-and-evictions-banned-as-parties-in-final-play-for-power-39302355.html


What does this mean for the future of renting in Ireland?

Personally I have rented my house out for 6 months only as I went travelling and was planning to return and go back to my job in August.

Now this is no longer possible. I am a homeless homeowner.

It is the first time I am renting out.....I never expected to not be able to have my home back. Tenant has been a nightmare since the beginning and is refusing to leave. I do not want to evict illegally but I don't want to be homeless either.

frw5

Finally, long overdue!

When it comes to your situation, you made an investment/bet, it didnt pay off. Why where you betting in the first place?

frw5

frw5 wrote: »

Finally, long overdue!

When it comes to your situation, you made an investment/bet, it didnt pay off. Why where you betting in the first place?

If investors don’t “bet”, where do you think rental properties would come from?

frw5

I am not saying not to bet but If I made a bet I wouldn't cry afterwards why have I lost the bet.
The situation here is very clear.
And yes I would empathise with someone doing this to cover medical expenses but cant empathise with someone renting to go do something which clearly financially was out of their reach.

JimmyVik

curious minds wrote: »

Eviction Ban has been extended until July 20th

and possibly will be extended further ......due to political interests and games

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/the-big-read-rents-will-be-frozen-and-evictions-banned-as-parties-in-final-play-for-power-39302355.html


What does this mean for the future of renting in Ireland?

Personally I have rented my house out for 6 months only as I went travelling and was planning to return and go back to my job in August.

Now this is no longer possible. I am a homeless homeowner.

It is the first time I am renting out.....I never expected to not be able to have my home back. Tenant has been a nightmare since the beginning and is refusing to leave. I do not want to evict illegally but I don't want to be homeless either.

I understand your frustration.

This is where they have been headed for years now.
Covid just gave them the excuse to do it.
This will be permanent soon enough.
And also you will not be able to sell a property with a tenant in it unless the tenant can stay during and after the sale.

I was looking at property investment for a few years now and it is just toxic in Ireland.
People are mad to rent out their property in Ireland, even if they think it will only be short term.

There may be a window between when Covid measures stoip and when they bring in permanent legislation that you can get your house back, but you probably should start the ball rolling and get a solicitor to show you how to prepare to get your house back right after covid.

frw5

JimmyVik wrote: »

I was looking at property investment for a few years now and it is just toxic in Ireland.

And paying humongous rent because you havent inherited a fortune isn't toxic?

Elessar

curious minds wrote: »

Eviction Ban has been extended until July 20th

and possibly will be extended further ......due to political interests and games

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/the-big-read-rents-will-be-frozen-and-evictions-banned-as-parties-in-final-play-for-power-39302355.html


What does this mean for the future of renting in Ireland?

Personally I have rented my house out for 6 months only as I went travelling and was planning to return and go back to my job in August.

Now this is no longer possible. I am a homeless homeowner.

It is the first time I am renting out.....I never expected to not be able to have my home back. Tenant has been a nightmare since the beginning and is refusing to leave. I do not want to evict illegally but I don't want to be homeless either.

I'm sorry for your troubles OP. Not to add to the bad news but you can bet your bottom dollar the ban will be extended until well into the new year, as it will be seen cruel not to so close to christmas.

It's a rock and a hard place for people like yourself. What does it mean for the future of renting? Most likely that REITs will be the vast majority of landlords as many smaller landlords will just leave the sector - well, that's if they can, the Green party's manifesto will be removing the grounds of selling a property as a valid reason for terminating a lease.

marieholmfan

Did your tenants sign a six month lease?

curious minds wrote: »

Eviction Ban has been extended until July 20th

and possibly will be extended further ......due to political interests and games

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/the-big-read-rents-will-be-frozen-and-evictions-banned-as-parties-in-final-play-for-power-39302355.html


What does this mean for the future of renting in Ireland?

Personally I have rented my house out for 6 months only as I went travelling and was planning to return and go back to my job in August.

Now this is no longer possible. I am a homeless homeowner.

It is the first time I am renting out.....I never expected to not be able to have my home back. Tenant has been a nightmare since the beginning and is refusing to leave. I do not want to evict illegally but I don't want to be homeless either.

frw5

I am by no means against a landlord profiting from renting, but they have went to an absolute extreme, they've overplayed their cards, they've pushed a large portion of people living in this country over the edge by insane high rents based on few bad experiences instead of making efforts to better control the bad tenants, something similar what was done with the car insurance industry.
It's about time they feel a strong push back.

JimmyVik

frw5 wrote: »

And paying humongous rent because you havent inherited a fortune isn't toxic?

Whats that got to do with someone who rented out their house to someone for 6 months and cant get their house back after the 6 months?
I think you are being a bit toxic there yourself.
I dont know too many people who bought houses who have inherited a fortune, or anything for that matter.
Why do you think rents have been going up?
Would it be to do with it being uneconomical and toxic for landlords who are supplying them by any chance? Well they are being forced out. And that means rents wont be getting any cheaper. The opposite in fact. Be careful what you wish for. Youve got it.

Graham

Mod Note

frw5, take the off-topic landlord bashing somewhere else.

Do not reply to this post.

frw5

JimmyVik wrote: »

Be careful what you wish for. Youve got it.

You are right there, my rent got decreased, and look and behold the landlord is still alive and not generating loss. :rolleyes:

I think I am on topic because this is a perfect example on how someone tried to use the situation to rent a property to go on a spending spree. It is a perfect example where this type of investment only reflects negatively on society. Luckily it seems we are slowly coming out of Dark Ages. Over and out.

Xterminator

curious minds wrote: »

Eviction Ban has been extended until July 20th

and possibly will be extended further ......due to political interests and games
.

Hi Op

first and foremost it is done to arrest tenants being made homeless. And that is not primarily political or games , they are people - each case is individual.

the covid situation is unique, and shutdown of the economy was a unique reaction to it. Due to covid. there are a lot of people not working - with only a basic income provided by the state.

Landlords business has been affected by covid. At least your business is 'open'. What about barbers and publicans etc. Often self employed, or small businesses with zero income. Forbidden to open their business doors.

I sympathise with your personal circumstance, but try a little social awareness.

theteal

OP, what do you mean by you "do not want to evict illegally"? How do you think you could get them out?

If they're still paying the rent, you're not actually in a bad position. They could easily stop and it'll still take you an age to get them out. Hopefully it doesn't come to that.

Graham

Mod Note

frw5, do not post in this thread again.

marieholmfan

theteal wrote: »

OP, what do you mean by you "do not want to evict illegally"? How do you think you could get them out?

If they're still paying the rent, you're not actually in a bad position. They could easily stop and it'll still take you an age to get them out. Hopefully it doesn't come to that.

If he signed a six month tenancy they will be prepared to move (especially in a market in which rents are static or slightly falling). The problem is almost certainly a non problem. If he signed a years tenancy with the intention of evicting them after his return from 'travelling' then he certainly deserves no sympathy.

timetogo1

curious minds wrote: »

Now this is no longer possible. I am a homeless homeowner.

It is the first time I am renting out.....I never expected to not be able to have my home back. Tenant has been a nightmare since the beginning and is refusing to leave. I do not want to evict illegally but I don't want to be homeless either.

Well what do your tenants say? Presumably you had a lease for the 6 months. They may have planned to move on at the end of the 6 months. They're not being forced to stay until 20th July.

I'm sorry for your troubles OP but there are risks to renting out property, including that it might not be available when you want it.

curious minds

Xterminator wrote: »

Hi Op

first and foremost it is done to arrest tenants being made homeless. And that is not primarily political or games , they are people - each case is individual.

the covid situation is unique, and shutdown of the economy was a unique reaction to it. Due to covid. there are a lot of people not working - with only a basic income provided by the state.

Landlords business has been affected by covid. At least your business is 'open'. What about barbers and publicans etc. Often self employed, or small businesses with zero income. Forbidden to open their business doors.

I sympathise with your personal circumstance, but try a little social awareness.

This has made me homeless....where is the social awareness in that?
I have worked my entire life to get this house ....

curious minds

marieholmfan wrote: »

If he signed a six month tenancy they will be prepared to move (especially in a market in which rents are static or slightly falling). The problem is almost certainly a non problem. If he signed a years tenancy with the intention of evicting them after his return from 'travelling' then he certainly deserves no sympathy.

Well they are not prepared to move. As I said signed 6 months.
But they are taking advantage of the situation and refusing to look for something else.

marieholmfan

curious minds wrote: »

Well they are not prepared to move. As I said signed 6 months.
But they are taking advantage of the situation and refusing to look for something else.

OK this is a tough situation. Send a letter informing them that their tenancy ends on the relevant date, that they must continue to pay rent while overholding and that even though you will accept this rent that does not mean that they have a tenancy.

Basically end the tenancy on time and register your claim with the RTB in order to evict quickly when the time comes.

Claw Hammer

curious minds wrote: »

Well they are not prepared to move. As I said signed 6 months.
But they are taking advantage of the situation and refusing to look for something else.

You foolishly signed 6 months. Some adjudicators hold that you can't serve a notice of termination during the currency of a fixed term. You have to wait till the 6 months is up. After that, you serve a notice of termination on one of the grounds required in the case of a Part 4 tenancy accompanied by the necessary declarations etc.
You should have done basic research before signing a 6 month lease.

DubCount

Don't even consider an illegal eviction. You could end up with a significant financial penalty from the RTB and possibly have the tenant reinstated as well.

Get a solicitor. Do it right.

The system is a mess. IMHO most rental inflation over the last number of years was caused by our government implementing silly anti-landlord legislation, in stead of solving the real problem by increasing supply. unfortunately, we are where we are, and you have to play the game - even when its madness.

Expect even more pro-tenant measures, an extension of the anti-eviction term, and anything else which makes renting out a property a risky venture.

Varik

Claw Hammer wrote: »

You foolishly signed 6 months. Some adjudicators hold that you can't serve a notice of termination during the currency of a fixed term. You have to wait till the 6 months is up. After that, you serve a notice of termination on one of the grounds required in the case of a Part 4 tenancy accompanied by the necessary declarations etc.
You should have done basic research before signing a 6 month lease.

Actually the eviction ban could have helped the OP here.

The eviction ban put a stop on the tenant gaining time towards part 4.

Part 4 tenancies and further part 4 tenancies will not commence during the emergency period. The 3-month emergency period does not count towards the time spent as a tenant for part 4 or further part 4 tenancies.

So the leases 6 months might have expired but part 4 won't have been gained.

davindub

Claw Hammer wrote: »

You foolishly signed 6 months. Some adjudicators hold that you can't serve a notice of termination during the currency of a fixed term. You have to wait till the 6 months is up. After that, you serve a notice of termination on one of the grounds required in the case of a Part 4 tenancy accompanied by the necessary declarations etc.
You should have done basic research before signing a 6 month lease.

Where would the OP find research that you cannot serve notice during a fixed term lease to terminate the tenancy after the expiry of the 6 months?

godtabh

davindub wrote: »

Where would the OP find research that you cannot serve notice during a fixed term lease to terminate the tenancy after the expiry of the 6 months?

Its been posted here many times

davindub

davindub wrote: »

Where would the OP find research that you cannot serve notice during a fixed term lease to terminate the tenancy after the expiry of the 6 months?

I’d be interested in that as well. Interestingly, this legal site states that no notice is necessary at all to end a fixed term tenancy of 6 months or less, presumably the fixed term agreement itself is a form of written notice that the tenancy will end on a certain date before Part 4 rights are attained. The LL is effectively giving 6 months notice of the tenancy ending.

https://www.lawyer.ie/property/ending-your-tenancy/

godtabh wrote: »

Its been posted here many times

Were those posts in relation to ending a tenancy at the end of a fixed term agreement after the tenant has gotten Part 4 rights? You have to wait until the end of the fixed term if you want to end a tenancy using any of the grounds for Part 4 terminations.

davindub

godtabh wrote: »

Its been posted here many times

But what was the source?

Chinese whispers I think...

curious minds

The issue here is not serving a 1 month notice before the 6 months lease is up
Nor serving a 3 months notice after 6 months and a Day,

Both these risks were taken into account because these were written in the low so we are all aware of these

However the 4 months eviction ban and probably more has put me in a very unpleasant situation. If the eviction ban is extended until next year . What will happen to those who only rented short term and need their house back - have nowhere else to live. ?

what happens to rent arrears? sure if a tenant can live for free for a long time with no risk of being evicted why would't they?

LeineGlas

DubCount wrote: »

Don't even consider an illegal eviction. You could end up with a significant financial penalty from the RTB and possibly have the tenant reinstated as well.

Get a solicitor. Do it right.

The system is a mess. IMHO most rental inflation over the last number of years was caused by our government implementing silly anti-landlord legislation, in stead of solving the real problem by increasing supply. unfortunately, we are where we are, and you have to play the game - even when its madness.

Expect even more pro-tenant measures, an extension of the anti-eviction term, and anything else which makes renting out a property a risky venture.

In fairness, it's very difficult to increase supply when it is so easy to object to development.

Gumbo

frw5 wrote: »

I am by no means against a landlord profiting from renting, but they have went to an absolute extreme, they've overplayed their cards, they've pushed a large portion of people living in this country over the edge by insane high rents based on few bad experiences instead of making efforts to better control the bad tenants, something similar what was done with the car insurance industry.
It's about time they feel a strong push back.

A landlord can not control bad tenants. Only the law can, and here in Ireland the law is firmly on the side of tenants, even bad tenants.

DubCount

curious minds wrote: »

The issue here is not serving a 1 month notice before the 6 months lease is up
Nor serving a 3 months notice after 6 months and a Day,

Both these risks were taken into account because these were written in the low so we are all aware of these

However the 4 months eviction ban and probably more has put me in a very unpleasant situation. If the eviction ban is extended until next year . What will happen to those who only rented short term and need their house back - have nowhere else to live. ?

what happens to rent arrears? sure if a tenant can live for free for a long time with no risk of being evicted why would't they?

The situation you have been put in is not fair.

The Government wants to prioritise the right of tenants to stay in their current accommodation over the rights of the landlord to earn rent, regain possession to live in their own property, or regain possession to sell their own asset. They don't care if you become homeless because of this. They don't care if you suffer financial hardship. They only care about your tenant.

You need to accept this. Its sickening, but its not going to change. In theory, you can chase the tenant through the courts for rent arears. In practice, its to expensive to go to the trouble of securing a judgement which you would be a lifetime collecting (or trying to collect). Talk to your local TD - I doubt you will make any more progress than I did.

NuMarvel

curious minds wrote: »

This has made me homeless....where is the social awareness in that?
I have worked my entire life to get this house ....

Firstly, you're not back in Ireland, so you're not homeless yet.

Secondly, and I appreciate this will sound harsh; you have to take some personal responsibility here. There was always the possibility that the ban would be extended because no one knew what the economic effects of COVID would be. This was raised when the roadmap was announced last month, and I'm sure there was some talk of it even before that.

So to give up your primary residence thinking everything would be back to normal when you returned was, let's be honest, foolish. Being a landlord isn't a hobby you can dabble in; it's a business. And in business there's always the chance you can lose what you've invested.

Thirdly; to be a bit helpful - you have two things in your favour. Firstly, the length of the lease means Part 4 protections won't kick in. Secondly, even if they did, the landlord wanting to live in the property is a valid grounds for ending a tenancy. I suggest you get proper, professional advice about how to handle this. There is some guidance on the RTB website here - https://www.rtb.ie/ending-a-tenancy/how-a-landlord-can-end-a-tenancy/landlords-grounds-for-ending-a-tenancy.

Lastly, you've presumably registered the tenancy with the RTB, but if you haven't I suggest you do so quickly.

Graham

Would the OP have been able to predict Coronavirus 6 months ago?

Can you register tenancies of less than 6 months with the RTB?

Pintman Paddy Losty

OP,

If I was you I would inform the tenant that their lease is up at the end of the 6 months and that they will vacate your property. They are not getting a choice in this. Tell them they need to start looking for a new place.

There are people you can hire that will assist them in moving out on time on the eviction day. They'll even help move some of their possessions out of the property. I've heard that they can be rough sometimes and possessions get broken or lost. Your tenant should bear that in mind.

That's my advice.

JimmyVik

NuMarvel wrote: »

Firstly, you're not back in Ireland, so you're not homeless yet.

Secondly, and I appreciate this will sound harsh; you have to take some personal responsibility here. There was always the possibility that the ban would be extended because no one knew what the economic effects of COVID would be. This was raised when the roadmap was announced last month, and I'm sure there was some talk of it even before that.

So to give up your primary residence thinking everything would be back to normal when you returned was, let's be honest, foolish. Being a landlord isn't a hobby you can dabble in; it's a business. And in business there's always the chance you can lose what you've invested.

Thirdly; to be a bit helpful - you have two things in your favour. Firstly, the length of the lease means Part 4 protections won't kick in. Secondly, even if they did, the landlord wanting to live in the property is a valid grounds for ending a tenancy. I suggest you get proper, professional advice about how to handle this. There is some guidance on the RTB website here - https://www.rtb.ie/ending-a-tenancy/how-a-landlord-can-end-a-tenancy/landlords-grounds-for-ending-a-tenancy.

Lastly, you've presumably registered the tenancy with the RTB, but if you haven't I suggest you do so quickly.

Victim blaming is ok. As long as the victim is a landlord.

NuMarvel

JimmyVik wrote: »

Victim blaming is ok. As long as the victim is a landlord.

Saying that becoming a landlord should be treated like starting any other business isn't victim blaming.

I sincerely hope things work out for the OP, and the tenant. I don't want to see anyone homeless. But these measures were brought in to stop just that, and overall they are having an effect. I appreciate that's cold comfort to the OP, but what was the alternative?

NuMarvel

Graham wrote: »

Would the OP have been able to predict Coronavirus 6 months ago?

Can you register tenancies of less than 6 months with the RTB?

The OP couldn't have predicted the coronavirus, but they could have accounted for the possibility of difficulties in moving back into their own home at the end of the tenancy for other reasons, eg overstaying and difficult tenants.

I know that sounds harsh, but this is the OP's own home we're talking about; if it were me I'd have considered every potential scenario before deciding to give it a complete stranger.

As for tenancy registrations, tenancies of less than 6 months aren't one of the exemptions on the RTB site. But happy to be corrected if I'm missing anything.

JimmyVik

The OP did nothing wrong here.
They made an agreement between themselves and another adult that suited them both.
One party is not holding up their end of the agreement.

They have been screwed by the heavily weighted and unfair system.

L1011

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

OP,

If I was you I would inform the tenant that their lease is up at the end of the 6 months and that they will vacate your property. They are not getting a choice in this. Tell them they need to start looking for a new place.

There are people you can hire that will assist them in moving out on time on the eviction day. They'll even help move some of their possessions out of the property. I've heard that they can be rough sometimes and possessions get broken or lost. Your tenant should bear that in mind.

That's my advice.

Do not give "advice" which breaches the law (in multiple ways, at that) again

seamus

There's a very simple solution for the OP here - go and rent.

Pkiernan

NuMarvel wrote: »

Saying that becoming a landlord should be treated like starting any other business isn't victim blaming.

I sincerely hope things work out for the OP, and the tenant. I don't want to see anyone homeless. But these measures were brought in to stop just that, and overall they are having an effect. I appreciate that's cold comfort to the OP, but what was the alternative?

Name any other business in the world that if the provider stops providing a service when the customer stops paying , the provider will be fined.

seamus

Pkiernan wrote: »

Name any other business in the world that if the provider stops providing a service when the customer stops paying , the provider will be fined.

Electricity supply.

The ESB cannot cut off an occupied property for non-payment, and the regulator will crucify them if they did.

This is what happens when you're in the special category of sevice providers providing essental human needs. You have to accept the fact that the needs of the individual are more important than the profits of the business.

timetogo1

seamus wrote: »

Electricity supply.

The ESB cannot cut off an occupied property for non-payment, and the regulator will crucify them if they did.

This is what happens when you're in the special category of sevice providers providing essental human needs. You have to accept the fact that the needs of the individual are more important than the profits of the business.

I know it's off topic but it seems that doesn't seem correct.

From the regulators site.
"A customer cannot be disconnected if they have agreed a payment plan and are meeting all payments."
https://www.cru.ie/home/customer-care/energy/customer-protection/#supplier-codes-of-practice

and
"Occasionally disconnections take place when a customer has built up significant arrears and is not engaging with their supplier to make arrangements to address the situation."
https://www.cru.ie/home/customer-care/energy/connecting-disconnecting/

NuMarvel

Pkiernan wrote: »

Name any other business in the world that if the provider stops providing a service when the customer stops paying , the provider will be fined.

The law allows for the eviction of non-paying tenants, so I'd be surprised if there were fines for doing that. Maybe you're confusing this with fines where the LL didn't follow the rules and laws around evictions? Because that's a different matter.

Then again, if I'm wrong, feel free to cite some examples. I'd be interested in seeing precisely what part of the Acts allow this.

beauf

seamus wrote: »

Electricity supply.

The ESB cannot cut off an occupied property for non-payment, and the regulator will crucify them if they did.

This is what happens when you're in the special category of sevice providers providing essental human needs. You have to accept the fact that the needs of the individual are more important than the profits of the business.

ESB can disconnect you in certain circumstances. Though this has been suspended for the lockdown. There's a good few threads on boards with people who have been cut off.

They won't reconnect unless the debt is paid. Even if the person trying to reconnect isn't the person who owns the debt.

Regulators are pretty useless in Ireland.

Pintman Paddy Losty

seamus wrote: »

There's a very simple solution for the OP here - go and rent.

How is he supposed to do that if he can't afford it? Particularly as his tenants sounds like a nightmare and probably isn't paying him rent?

Uncle Pierre

seamus wrote: »

Electricity supply.

The ESB cannot cut off an occupied property for non-payment, and the regulator will crucify them if they did.

Wrong.

Or at best, only partially (very partially) correct.

An electricity supply company can't cut off supply from elderly or vulnerable people during the winter months (think it's November to March), and can't cut the supply anytime from people who depend on electricity to run vital medical equipment.

But it's definitely not the case that they can't cut off supply from any occupied property for non-payment. If that were true, there'd be no need for any of us to ever pay our electricity bills.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!

frw5 wrote: »

Finally, long overdue!

When it comes to your situation, you made an investment/bet, it didnt pay off. Why where you betting in the first place?

So you're promoting and advocating overholding a property (might be legal but morally wrong) and withholding of rent (illegal)?

beauf

seamus wrote: »

...
This is what happens when you're in the special category of sevice providers providing essental human needs. You have to accept the fact that the needs of the individual are more important than the profits of the business....

So if someone is renting out a million euro penthouses they are hardly an essential human need.

The issue is it's the govt who is responsible for supplying basic housing needs. Not the private sector. It's not right that the govt has forced the private sector into carrying the cost of social and low cost housing.

NuMarvel

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

How is he supposed to do that if he can't afford it? Particularly as his tenants sounds like a nightmare and probably isn't paying him rent?

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

So you're promoting and advocating overholding a property (might be legal but morally wrong) and withholding of rent (illegal)?

The OP hasn't said that the tenant stopped paying their rent (yet anyway)