Trigger warning for rail phobes: high speed rail Dublin to Derry

road_high

I think a new rail line right up the middle of the country connecting all the main intercity lines would be fantastic. Then have a spur from Sligo to Derry. Of course I’m dreaming but would open up the country

cgcsb

Resources in the transport budget are likely to be spent on PT projects in the cities where they have the most impact. A high speed rail study is being undertaken but the only route being considered is Cork to Dundalk. The first intercity high speed line in Ireland is still decades away.

is_that_so

cgcsb wrote: »

Resources in the transport budget are likely to be spent on PT projects in the cities where they have the most impact. A high speed rail study is being undertaken but the only route being considered is Cork to Dundalk. The first intercity high speed line in Ireland is still decades away.

Yeah, I believe that Dublin Cork and Dublin Belfast are about the only viable routes anyway.

Sligo eye

is_that_so wrote: »

Yeah, I believe that Dublin Cork and Dublin Belfast are about the only viable routes anyway.

In terms of high speed rail yes but higher speeds on conventional rail are very much viable right across the network. Track relaying, signal upgrades and more passing loops will give much better return on investment for far less cost.

is_that_so

Sligo eye wrote: »

In terms of high speed rail yes but higher speeds on conventional rail are very much viable right across the network. Track relaying, signal upgrades and more passing loops will give much better return on investment for far less cost.

As I understand it, it's a passenger numbers problem, not a structural one. It makes no sense to compare ourselves to the rest of Europe, with our lower population density.

Sligo eye

is_that_so wrote: »

As I understand it, it's a passenger numbers problem, not a structural one. It makes no sense to compare ourselves to the rest of Europe, with our lower population density.

We are planning to expand the population of the State over the next 20 Years. It makes sense to plan ahead and provide adequate infrastructure and that includes rail.

road_high

is_that_so wrote: »

As I understand it, it's a passenger numbers problem, not a structural one. It makes no sense to compare ourselves to the rest of Europe, with our lower population density.

Would our population density be massively different to much of central and Eastern Europe? The fact we’re an island not connected to any others countries is a factor, much of the European high speed network is inter country

cgcsb

Never mind population density. High speed (well sort of) rail operates across vast unpopulated areas like Sweden. Purpose built high speed rail crosses the uninhabited interior of Spain and the French Midlands.
Ireland could easily adopt a gradual upgrade to 220kmh running, similar to Sweden, along the Cork-Dundalk corridor. If we had trains every 20 mins between Dublin and Cork that took about 90mins we'd be flying it and we'd never have to sit through one of those atrocious elon musk presentations on hyperloop.

Charles Babbage

What they need for both Dublin and connection northwards is quad to Malahide-Connolly, get going on this now.

cgcsb

Charles Babbage wrote: »

What they need for both Dublin and connection northwards is quad to Malahide-Connolly, get going on this now.

I'm always curious why people think that the additional tracks need to be where the current northern line is? Are fast (high or medium speed) Dublin-Belfast trains going to be stopping at DART stations on the coast?

Cookiemunster

cgcsb wrote: »

Never mind population density. High speed (well sort of) rail operates across vast unpopulated areas like Sweden. Purpose built high speed rail crosses the uninhabited interior of Spain and the French Midlands.

Looking at the Swedish map, it mainly connects the cities of Gothenburg, Malmo and Stockholm, so a high population density area. The other line looks to be joining population centers along the East coast to Stockholm.

Those high speed rail lines through central France and Spain link very large population centers. Population density along the route isn't an issue.

cgcsb wrote: »

Ireland could easily adopt a gradual upgrade to 220kmh running, similar to Sweden, along the Cork-Dundalk corridor. If we had trains every 20 mins between Dublin and Cork that took about 90mins we'd be flying it and we'd never have to sit through one of those atrocious elon musk presentations on hyperloop.

And then after arguing that high speed rail doesn't need high population density you propose upgrading the line through the areas of Ireland with the highest populations density.

galwaytt

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Will there be a junction with the Belfast-Galway line at Clones?

I heard they were building a super mini roundabout turntable thing

cgcsb

reread the post and the context cookie.

GerardKeating

is_that_so wrote: »

Yeah, I believe that Dublin Cork and Dublin Belfast are about the only viable routes anyway.

Dublin-Galway always seem busy ?

Del.Monte wrote: »

Electrifying the Dublin/Bray route was first discussed in the 1880s - it opened in 1984.

So there's hope yet.

Del.Monte wrote: »

Sure, there's always the Northern Bank money.

did they not blow all that buying the last few elections...

NIMAN wrote: »

They must have planted a load more magic money trees too.

they can use the new rail line to transport all the money around the country

Charles Babbage wrote: »

What they need for both Dublin and connection northwards is quad to Malahide-Connolly, get going on this now.

There would be a few pinch points on the existing northern line, so maybe tather than quad track the northern line, quad track Metro North (two Metro, two Heavy Rail) and extend it to Rush/Lusk area.

Muahahaha

SeanW wrote: »

I've heard worse ideas. But my suggestion to our new Dail members is to start with the basics. Railway to Navan ASAP please. Preferably double track, electrified from day 1.

High speed rail from Dubln to Derry is pie in the sky and there isnt the population densities along the route to justify it. Plus the DUP problem in Fermanagh, they've spent a decade now blocking the N2/A5 motorway so a railway has zero chance of being built.

But the Navan project is very much achievable and should proceed. Its actually crazy that a town as big as Navan isnt connected to Dublin by rail. But then again they voted in the Minister for Transport back in the boom when the country was awash with money and he turned out to be a complete incompetent so its the usual adage of you get what you vote for.

Id imagine electrification of the Maynooth and Drogheda lines has now overtaken the Navan railway in terms of priority.

cgcsb

If Cork-Dublin-Dublin Airport-Belfast was a high speed rail spine with 20 minute frequency, Derry, Larne, Bangor, Limerick, Ennis and Kerry would only be a short connection away from this spine and would benefit from drastically reduced journey times between all Cities. A future Galway-Dublin high speed would also slash journey times to Mayo and improve frequency. Almost all of Ireland's population would be 2 hours from Dublin City Centre or Dublin airport by rail and 3 hours to Belfast or Cork City Centres without building a dedicated new line to every single town.

We should also build non-high speed shorter lines in the future Navan to Dublin and Charleville to Limerick for example. I'd also advocate for a Letterkenny-Derry rail service in a commuter style, and is there any real reason why Limerick does not have a commuter rail network? basic things can easily be improved. A new line along the west Cork towns to Cork City should also be rebuilt, shameful it was ever removed given the demand. a bit of spending and a lot of vision is needed.

A new dedicated line to Derry is bottom of the pile stuff after all the above is addressed.
/rant

Markcheese

cgcsb wrote: »

If Cork-Dublin-Dublin Airport-Belfast was a high speed rail spine with 20 minute frequency, Derry, Larne, Bangor, Limerick, Ennis and Kerry would only be a short connection away from this spine and would benefit from drastically reduced journey times between all Cities. A future Galway-Dublin high speed would also slash journey times to Mayo and improve frequency. Almost all of Ireland's population would be 2 hours from Dublin City Centre or Dublin airport by rail and 3 hours to Belfast or Cork City Centres without building a dedicated new line to every single town.

We should also build non-high speed shorter lines in the future Navan to Dublin and Charleville to Limerick for example. I'd also advocate for a Letterkenny-Derry rail service in a commuter style, and is there any real reason why Limerick does not have a commuter rail network? basic things can easily be improved. A new line along the west Cork towns to Cork City should also be rebuilt, shameful it was ever removed given the demand. a bit of spending and a lot of vision is needed.

A new dedicated line to Derry is bottom of the pile stuff after all the above is addressed.
/rant

If you stopped at all those stations in your cork/Belfast high speed train then it wouldn't do the trip at high speed...
West cork rail is gone ,its not coming back... There are other public transport options ...keep rail for suburban and major Intercity .....

BonnieSituation

Markcheese wrote: »

If you stopped at all those stations in your cork/Belfast high speed train then it wouldn't do the trip at high speed...
West cork rail is gone ,its not coming back... There are other public transport options ...keep rail for suburban and major Intercity .....

All what stations?

You'd think a high speed rail service from Belfast to Cork would minimise the stopping but maximise the connections surely?

cgcsb

cgcsb wrote: »

Never mind population density. High speed (well sort of) rail operates across vast unpopulated areas like Sweden. Purpose built high speed rail crosses the uninhabited interior of Spain and the French Midlands.

Yeesh, you really don't want to use the high speed Spainish rail network as a good example of anything but high speed

cgcsb

Markcheese wrote: »

If you stopped at all those stations in your cork/Belfast high speed train then it wouldn't do the trip at high speed...
West cork rail is gone ,its not coming back... There are other public transport options ...keep rail for suburban and major Intercity .....

All what stations? 4 stops between Dublin and Cork would be sufficient. Not much over a 300km distance. West cork rail should come back is the point, should never have closed.

cgcsb

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeesh, you really don't want to use the high speed Spainish rail network as a good example of anything but high speed

So the point of that video is that the tickets are subsidised. So what?

Markcheese

BonnieSituation wrote: »

All what stations?

You'd think a high speed rail service from Belfast to Cork would minimise the stopping but maximise the connections surely?

Well yes you would think that , but the connections along the route the more stops , and each one will add 5 to 10 mins to the journey time , ( allowing for deceleration from a couple of hundred kph ,dwell time and acceleration again) ,so 6 or 7 stops adds an extra hour of journey time ,
The conundrum is the less stops the better ,allowing for higher journey times ,which should attract more passengers, but fewer stops also means less connections ,and a smaller "pool " of potential passengers ...

cgcsb

Markcheese wrote: »

Well yes you would think that , but the connections along the route the more stops , and each one will add 5 to 10 mins to the journey time , ( allowing for deceleration from a couple of hundred kph ,dwell time and acceleration again) ,so 6 or 7 stops adds an extra hour of journey time ,
The conundrum is the less stops the better ,allowing for higher journey times ,which should attract more passengers, but fewer stops also means less connections ,and a smaller "pool " of potential passengers ...

Only 3 or 4 stops needed along the 300km though

Markcheese

cgcsb wrote: »

So the point of that video is that the tickets are subsidised. So what?

At one point the host exclaims in horror that the network has so far cost 54 billion euros ....
I bet the finance team for HS2 are crying in their cornflakes listening to that ..
But it does make the point of under utilization of an expensive asset , and that's between big industrial cities that are longish distances apart ...
The French are starting to do some more budget style TGV trains , I assume to make it more accessible and up numbers ..

Markcheese

cgcsb wrote: »

Only 3 or 4 stops needed along the 300km though

So ,not stopping at the likes of mallow, limerick junction,(ballybrophy and portarlington would be right out ,) just the 1 stop in Dublin ..( no airport stop ? ) And straight on to Belfast ?

cgcsb

If they're worried about uptake they could make an environmentally friendly call and ban internal flights on the peninsula. France and the UK could do likewise.

Del.Monte

What has any of this got to do with the reopening of the station buffet at Clones??

cgcsb

Markcheese wrote: »

So ,not stopping at the likes of mallow, limerick junction,(ballybrophy and portarlington would be right out ,) just the 1 stop in Dublin ..( no airport stop ? ) And straight on to Belfast ?

Eh no.. there is 300km between Dublin and Cork and about 200 between Dublin and Belfast. Stopping could be Cork-Mallow-Lim Junct-Portarlaoise-Newbridge-Heuston-Airport-Drogheda-Dundalk-Banbridge-Belfast. The current inter city services have more stops than this and don't have the benefit of electric acceleration and high speed capability.

BonnieSituation

Markcheese wrote: »

Well yes you would think that , but the connections along the route the more stops , and each one will add 5 to 10 mins to the journey time , ( allowing for deceleration from a couple of hundred kph ,dwell time and acceleration again) ,so 6 or 7 stops adds an extra hour of journey time ,
The conundrum is the less stops the better ,allowing for higher journey times ,which should attract more passengers, but fewer stops also means less connections ,and a smaller "pool " of potential passengers ...

cgcsb wrote: »

Only 3 or 4 stops needed along the 300km though

Markcheese wrote: »

So ,not stopping at the likes of mallow, limerick junction,(ballybrophy and portarlington would be right out ,) just the 1 stop in Dublin ..( no airport stop ? ) And straight on to Belfast ?

Are you just creating arguments to have with yourself?

I would assume the stops from Belfast to Cork would be something ike:

Belfast>Dundalk/Drogheda>Dublin Airport>Port Laoise/Somewhere Midlandy to enable Galway lineconnection.>Cork Northside


Anyway it's all a bit moot.

Markcheese

Very moot ... And off topic for the thread ,which is about the serious issue of a Dublin / Derry high speed line .. 😂😂😂