Doctors who came home to help left in Limbo...

Drumpot

Ireland’s great shame

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/doctors-returning-to-fight-covid-19-feel-betrayed-says-imo-1.4283771?mode=amp

I remember reading the Q&A from our resident HSE consultant on ask me anything. He said “when this is all over, I just hope it’s not forgotten and we are looked after for what we are doing” or something to that effects One thing that stuck out most was how brave and just “do our job” mentality our healthcare and important service workers took (cleaners , Binmen etc) in the face of an uncertain enemy.

The risks these people took for our country was just amazing as nobody knew how bad the COVID was going to be. And now that it’s time for us to show our thanks, we can’t even take care of the people who answered our plea for help back in March. Eaten bread is soon forgotten, this is absolutely immoral and downright mean, but it also something that could come back and bite us on the ass , particularly if there is a second wave,

I can’t say I’m surprised but it’s such a sad state of affairs when now that we have gotten what we want from our healthcare workers we will go back to looking after number 1. Really terrible that this is even a thing, I think our health service has done an exceptional job and anybody who wasn’t involved in helping or putting their kneck on the line (like me) should Show Some gratitude, not least by insisting they get a job.

biko

Latest figures show 393 doctors returned to the medical register to practice after Mr Harris launched the Health Service Executive (HSE) recruitment campaign at the start of the coronavirus crisis, under the slogan: “Your country needs you.”

Around half of these came out of retirement, while the “vast majority” of the rest returned from overseas to help tackle the outbreak, according to the Medical Council.

Of those who returned, Dr Hillery said they were put on three-month contracts and many who want to stay on in Ireland are being told there is no work for them.

Is it the unpaid leave that the issue or that there isn't work for the ones who wants to stay?

I am all for them to be celebrated and get compensated for helping treat the sick, but if there isn't work now, what do they expect the HSE to do?

Drumpot

biko wrote: »

Is it the unpaid leave that the issue or that there isn't work for the ones who wants to stay?

I am all for them to be celebrated and get compensated for helping treat the sick, but if there isn't work now, what do they expect the HSE to do?

I think we Just hire them and give them work. It’s not like there isn’t massive waiting lists that need to be addressed. I’m not convinced they can’t possibly find work for them.

I don’t believe it’s right to ask for people to come back to the country in a crisis , say you will look after them and then just Hold your hands up afterwards when you’ve gotten what you want and say “sorry we actually don’t need you now”. Do what has to be done to hold up our side of the bargain, otherwise if there is another crisis less people will be willing to put themselves out for a country that basically doesn’t reciprocate or reward your efforts.

road_high

Did anyone think it would be otherwise? Typical Ireland- a big fcukin hullabaloo for a few weeks but with no contracts set in stone I knew a lot of these would fall by the wayside. Said it at the time they’d be better off staying where they were. Granted they wanted to be with family and safe in Ireland but other than that a waste of time

Murple

It wasn't that long ago I read that there was a crisis looming with GPs as so many were approaching retirement age. I've also read a number of times about certain consultant roles being left unfilled, the same with nursing, due to a lack of candidates. We have very long waiting lists for fairly standard treatments that are likely even longer now. Why not utilise the people that they have now and see if these issues can be improved? I would worry that come the winter, we could be hit by winter flu, winter vomiting bugs and a resurgence of Covid and be crying out for the assistance of these same doctors who, by then, are likely to have left the country again.

Car99

biko wrote: »

, but if there isn't work now, what do they expect the HSE to do?

There is work for them it's just we cant afford them because the hse is a hemorrhaging money due to sub standard inefficient management by self serving politicians and others with vested interests, we can find billions to pay the banks and billions when covid hit. If we fixed the health service in normal times we might not need to pump as many billions in when a crisis hits.

It's not for lack of spending, per capita we are one of the highest spending nations on health in Europe.Take out Scandinavia and Switzerland and we are the highest .

emo72

yeah....but....everyone clapped for them. is that not enough gratitude?

PatrickSmithUS

This was a no-win situation.

If they had been given long-term contracts by the HSE and we were left with a hospital shortage again then opposition TDs would have made accusations that the budgeting was done incorrectly.

It's a terrible situation really.

Drumpot

Drumpot wrote: »

I’m not convinced they can’t possibly find work for them.

Do what has to be done to hold up our side of the bargain, otherwise if there is another crisis less people will be willing to put themselves out for a country that basically doesn’t reciprocate or reward your efforts.

I'm interested in why you think there's work for them where the HSE say there isn't?
I'm also interested in what 'our side of the bargain' was and how you are privy to that information?

Drumpot

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm interested in why you think there's work for them where the HSE say there isn't?
I'm also interested in what 'our side of the bargain' was and how you are privy to that information?

What were they promised when they came back to the country during the crisis ? Most of these people had jobs abroad. I remember watching a doctor on a call from USA (on late late I think), talking directly with Harris and was asking for re-assurances. Harris said something on the lines that they would be taken care of or something to that effect.

Regardless, we asked them to come back. There was actually a national plea for doctors and medical professions to come back to Ireland. It is immoral to ask people for help in a crisis , let them make significant sacrifices to return home to help us all and then discard them as soon as you got what you want from them. Even from a selfish self preservation POV, how you treat these people now may determine how you will fair in a future criris and you ask people to help out. What goes around comes around.

DevilsHaircut

https://www.answerirelandscall.com/ was a private sector initiative set up to repatriate them.

'Be on call for Ireland' was the HSE one aimed at retired HCWs etc.

I don't think that the state actively encouraged HCWs to leave their jobs in other countries (as if the same had happened here, we'd be in big trouble).

Drumpot

DevilsHaircut wrote: »

https://www.answerirelandscall.com/ was a private sector initiative set up to repatriate them.

'Be on call for Ireland' was the HSE one aimed at retired HCWs etc.

I don't think that the state actively encouraged HCWs to leave their jobs in other countries (as if the same had happened here, we'd be in big trouble).

https://www.thejournal.ie/hse-recruitment-drive-5048770-Mar2020/

As part of the government’s efforts to tackle the crisis, a huge recruitment drive across the health service is to get under way today according to Health Minister Simon Harris.

“We will hire everybody that we can to work in the Irish health service,” he said at yesterday’s press conference, appealing to retired healthcare professionals and students to apply.

He made a special plea to Irish healthcare workers abroad, to those working part-time and to medical students, saying “we need you”.

Harris later told RTɒs Claire Byrne Live Show: “A huge amount of work is being prepared.

Anyone who has a qualification and wants to work in the Irish health service will get a job… Your country needs you.

Harris was definitely on TV talking with a doctor (again I think in the states) who was expressing concerns about coming back with no guarantees. Eaten bread is soon forgotten.

Drumpot

Drumpot wrote: »

What were they promised when they came back to the country during the crisis ?

I don't know what, if anything, they were promised.......that's why I'm asking you as you were quick to say we weren't holding up our end. Just wondering if you were aware of anything?

Drumpot

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't know what, if anything, they were promised.......that's why I'm asking you as you were quick to say we weren't holding up our end. Just wondering if you were aware of anything?

In the initial Irish Times link it stated that:

Doctors who returned from overseas to help combat Covid-19 in Ireland now feel “betrayed” after being told they are no longer needed, the Irish Medical Organisation (IMO) has said.

I watched one challenge Harris on TV and he specifically stated that he wanted reassurances that there would be a job when the crisis was over and Harris said to get in touch and they would discuss it.

But lets say you are right, that these people came home with not guarantees and some misguided sense of loyalty to Ireland, thinking they were doing right by Ireland because we asked them to come home to help us. Do you think its OK to ask people to sacrifice their jobs (which we did do, I quoted an example) in a foreign country to help us out and then not give them a job ? Thats the way we should treat people who put themselves out for the greater good, discard them when we have gotten what we want from them ?

road_high

Drumpot wrote: »

What were they promised when they came back to the country during the crisis ? Most of these people had jobs abroad. I remember watching a doctor on a call from USA (on late late I think), talking directly with Harris and was asking for re-assurances. Harris said something on the lines that they would be taken care of or something to that effect.

Regardless, we asked them to come back. There was actually a national plea for doctors and medical professions to come back to Ireland. It is immoral to ask people for help in a crisis , let them make significant sacrifices to return home to help us all and then discard them as soon as you got what you want from them. Even from a selfish self preservation POV, how you treat these people now may determine how you will fair in a future criris and you ask people to help out. What goes around comes around.

I’ve lived in Ireland for just over 35 years born and bred. In that time Ive learned that absolutely nothing is guaranteed unless you have a hard contract- signed, sealed and delivered. In all walks of life.
You’d have wanted to have been off your head to come back here and give up a good job in Australia or the USA (Based on warm fuzzy words of dimwit Harris) - we are and always will be a small nation with limited resources so when things get tight here there is rarely spare cash lying around so we have to cut our cloth.

DebDynamite

A lot of the returning doctors were doctors that had taken a year out after graduation to work in Australia, Canada, etc. It seems to be a rite of passage for a lot of them. These were always going to return home anyway

StackSteevens

Drumpot wrote: »

I think we Just hire them and give them work. It’s not like there isn’t massive waiting lists that need to be addressed. I’m not convinced they can’t possibly find work for them.

I don’t believe it’s right to ask for people to come back to the country in a crisis , say you will look after them and then just Hold your hands up afterwards when you’ve gotten what you want and say “sorry we actually don’t need you now”. Do what has to be done to hold up our side of the bargain, otherwise if there is another crisis less people will be willing to put themselves out for a country that basically doesn’t reciprocate or reward your efforts.

What leads you to believe that NCHDs can help to reduce the number of patients on those massive waiting lists?

The people on the waiting lists have already been referred onwards by their GP and the vast majority of them are waiting to see a Specialist Hospital Consultant, not a NCHD.

Drumpot

Drumpot wrote: »

Thats the way we should treat people who put themselves out for the greater good, discard them when we have gotten what we want from them ?

I'm not saying anything of the sort, I'm trying to ascertain all the facts before I go off on one. You initially said "Just hire them and give them work" when the official line is that there isn't any work for them to do.

You also said we should "hold up our side of the bargain, otherwise if there is another crisis less people will be willing to put themselves out for a country that basically doesn’t reciprocate or reward your efforts" and I asked what our side of the bargain was. So far, I've seen no such proof that our side of the bargain was "there'll be jobs for all of you when this is over". Your latest post is not proof of this either.

weldoninhio

Drumpot wrote: »

Ireland’s great shame

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/doctors-returning-to-fight-covid-19-feel-betrayed-says-imo-1.4283771?mode=amp

I remember reading the Q&A from our resident HSE consultant on ask me anything. He said “when this is all over, I just hope it’s not forgotten and we are looked after for what we are doing” or something to that effects One thing that stuck out most was how brave and just “do our job” mentality our healthcare and important service workers took (cleaners , Binmen etc) in the face of an uncertain enemy.

The risks these people took for our country was just amazing as nobody knew how bad the COVID was going to be. And now that it’s time for us to show our thanks, we can’t even take care of the people who answered our plea for help back in March. Eaten bread is soon forgotten, this is absolutely immoral and downright mean, but it also something that could come back and bite us on the ass , particularly if there is a second wave,

I can’t say I’m surprised but it’s such a sad state of affairs when now that we have gotten what we want from our healthcare workers we will go back to looking after number 1. Really terrible that this is even a thing, I think our health service has done an exceptional job and anybody who wasn’t involved in helping or putting their kneck on the line (like me) should Show Some gratitude, not least by insisting they get a job.

They abandoned the countries they were working in. I remember an Irish nurse in Perth almost being in tears being interviewed about her fellow countrymen and women abandoning them just as the virus was taking hold over there. She had no idea how they were going to run the hospital with whole shift rosters emptied.

How would Ireland have fared if all of our foreign HSE workers had upped and left?? I believe it's called karma.

maxsmum

I work in a community mental health service. We have had maybe 10 different locum Consultant Psychiatrists who I believe are are paid twice as much as a HSE contract one because nobody will take on the Consultant contract since it was slashed during austerity. So instead our service is down another psychologist every time there's a maternity leave, no occupational therapist... no money there to fill the team properly as all the cash is going on locums consultants. plus there's no continuity of care for the patients. Or the poor mental health team, we never know who our boss is.
Funnily the other team's Consultant is about to retire, he gets a day a week to do private work and gets paid the higher/old contract money as well! We can't ask him anything on a Friday because he sees private patients in his office!

road_high

weldoninhio wrote: »

They abandoned the countries they were working in. I remember an Irish nurse in Perth almost being in tears being interviewed about her fellow countrymen and women abandoning them just as the virus was taking hold over there. She had no idea how they were going to run the hospital with whole shift rosters emptied.

How would Ireland have fared if all of our foreign HSE workers had upped and left?? I believe it's called karma.

Yes i thought the same, thought the whole concept rather distasteful- I knew the HSE of course would not have the funding or as it turned out the demand for all these returning healthcare staff. It was all part of the mass mania that was Covid 19. Harris fanned the flames with his "Ireland's Call" rubbish. In future people would want to be a bit more considered if things like this happen in the future. If it was an absolute necessity to come home- that would have still been possible to do via London- flights never stopped to/from there.

whisky_galore

weldoninhio wrote: »

They abandoned the countries they were working in. I remember an Irish nurse in Perth almost being in tears being interviewed about her fellow countrymen and women abandoning them just as the virus was taking hold over there. She had no idea how they were going to run the hospital with whole shift rosters emptied.

How would Ireland have fared if all of our foreign HSE workers had upped and left?? I believe it's called karma.

Exactly.

Put on the green jersey hashtag shytetalk shown for what it is. Hard to find sympathy.
More fool them to be hoodwinked by it.

StackSteevens

maxsmum wrote: »

I work in a community mental health service. We have had maybe 10 different locum Consultant Psychiatrists who I believe are are paid twice as much as a HSE contract one because nobody will take on the Consultant contract since it was slashed during austerity. So instead our service is down another psychologist every time there's a maternity leave, no occupational therapist... no money there to fill the team properly as all the cash is going on locums consultants. plus there's no continuity of care for the patients. Or the poor mental health team, we never know who our boss is.
Funnily the other team's Consultant is about to retire, he gets a day a week to do private work and gets paid the higher/old contract money as well! We can't ask him anything on a Friday because he sees private patients in his office!

And Sinn Fein plan to pay hospital consultants less & tax them more - which, through some magical process known only to Louise O'Reilly and the Man in the Moon will help to "fix" the health service! :eek:

The only kind of consultants who will sign up to Sinn Fein's new yellow pack consultant contract are ones like this lad (who cost the Irsh taxpayer €4.6m earlier today, with lots more to come.):

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/high-court-directs-suspension-of-doctor-1.4256636

angel eyes 2012

weldoninhio wrote: »

They abandoned the countries they were working in. I remember an Irish nurse in Perth almost being in tears being interviewed about her fellow countrymen and women abandoning them just as the virus was taking hold over there. She had no idea how they were going to run the hospital with whole shift rosters emptied.

How would Ireland have fared if all of our foreign HSE workers had upped and left?? I believe it's called karma.

I questioned that at the time they all arrived at the airport, what about the medical facilities and patients they are leaving behind at very short notice. It seemed like the massive elephant in the room that Harris and the media seemed to completely disregard.

Anyway pay budgets in the public sector are under massive pressure already so even though there are plenty of vancacies, the nurses and doctors are better off going back to Australia or Dubai with cap in hand because they won't be employed here.

Anita Blow

Returning doctors from Australia make up a minority of the doctors affected by this. The majority affected are interns- Australia is a pressure valve for the Irish system because we only have enough training places each year for half of those doctors completing their internship. The other half then go abroad as there is no vacancy for them here.
Due to travel restrictions that is now not an option, so now on the tail end of a global pandemic with a 4-month backlog in an already under-funded and understaffed health system Ireland will have it's largest number of unemployed doctors ever.

It's a shame really because the additional staffing we have had over the past 3 months actually made you feel like you were working in a functioning health system for the first time. We had simple things that most other countries have like leave-relief (rotating doctors to cover sick leave/annual leave on a team) so that you didn't have to force yourself to come into work when ill for fear of leaving a clinic/theatre list/call rota/ward team short.

StackSteevens

Anita Blow wrote: »

Returning doctors from Australia make up a minority of the doctors affected by this. The majority affected are interns- Australia is a pressure valve for the Irish system because we only have enough training places each year for half of those doctors completing their internship. The other half then go abroad as there is no vacancy for them here.

Due to travel restrictions that is now not an option, so now on the tail end of a global pandemic with a 4-month backlog in an already under-funded and understaffed health system Ireland will have it's largest number of unemployed doctors ever.

It's a shame really because the additional staffing we have had over the past 3 months actually made you feel like you were working in a functioning health system for the first time. We had simple things that most other countries have like leave-relief (rotating doctors to cover sick leave/annual leave on a team) so that you didn't have to force yourself to come into work when ill for fear of leaving a clinic/theatre list/call rota/ward team short.

Seems mad that the 50% of overseas medical students in our Universities should leave Ireland and return to their home countries after graduating, right enough! We should definitely lock them all up and force them to stay here so you could catch up on your beauty sleep.

And as for the nonsense about an underfunded HSE - you really need to stop posting tripe which serves mainly to highlight your ignorance.

road_high

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

I questioned that at the time they all arrived at the airport, what about the medical facilities and patients they are leaving behind at very short notice. It seemed like the massive elephant in the room that Harris and the media seemed to completely disregard.

Anyway pay budgets in the public sector are under massive pressure already so even though there are plenty of vancacies, the nurses and doctors are better off going back to Australia or Dubai with cap in hand because they won't be employed here.

Exactly. Not a brass schilling to pay all these new people and offer them contracts. And with the complete lack of Covid related work there’s no demand pull there anymore (and never really was) for what they rushed home for.

arctictree

Anita Blow wrote: »

Ireland will have it's largest number of unemployed doctors ever.

I still have to meet an unemployed doctor...

anplaya27

Sure what do you expect. The hse cant even pay it's current contracted workers the appropriate rate, with pay freezes still in place. I would earn more stacking shelves tbh.