Move property from Leasehold to Freehold

handlemaster

I have noticed property for sale that are houses which are leasehold with a nominal fees attached like 1 pound per year or the like. Is it difficult to move these from leasehold to freehold , and how much would it cost ? Just wonder why these would not have been swapped over previously.

The cost is whatever the freeholder wants and a potential buyer is willing to pay...

StevieHardesty

StevieHardesty wrote: »

The cost is whatever the freeholder wants and a potential buyer is willing to pay...

Not automatically - it depends really.
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/owning_a_home/home_owners/ground_rent.html

Ask your solicitor OP to look at it.

Truthvader

StevieHardesty wrote: »

The cost is whatever the freeholder wants and a potential buyer is willing to pay...

Nonsense you can buy out for nominal fee through the land registry but why would you bother.

Ah - forgot about the GRPS.

I stand humbled and not a little ashamed for my ignorance

handlemaster

Truthvader wrote: »

Nonsense you can buy out for nominal fee through the land registry but why would you bother.

As in contact the land registery and pay the 100 euro for the remaining years ?

Why would the landregistery be involved in this ?

Truthvader

Truthvader wrote: »

Nonsense you can buy out for nominal fee through the land registry but why would you bother.

But why wouldn't you tidy things up.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/church-of-england-vicar-and-wife-claim-rights-to-historic-estate-lands-in-sligo-1.641335?mode=amp
There was another case recently I cant immediately find.

whatever76

Interested in this topic - I myself purchased a house last tear but had a 500 year leasehold set in 1950's ( usual 1 pound lease but no one ever looked for it !) - so over 400 years left. I discussed with solicitor and he said yea you could move it over but he didnt see the urgency and if it worth the hassle - its not going to be my problem 400 years down the line if there was only 50 years left in the lease then I would pursue for sure but right now its down my list , unless I want to say I own the land as well.

I asked at the time the cost and he said it can vary - some are straight forward but some complex if the landlord cannot be sourced or paperwork to be found - so he didn't commit to a cost - but i think a solicitor is required so you are sure of that cost !

In the example above, would you not have a better chance of say finding a landlord or their heirs now 70 years later than leaving it? - if say the landlord is an individual, there is a small chance that they are still alive, there's a better chance their children are alive.

whatever76

Deleted User wrote: »

In the example above, would you not have a better chance of say finding a landlord or their heirs now 70 years later than leaving it? - if say the landlord is an individual, there is a small chance that they are still alive, there's a better chance their children are alive.

Oh good point I had not thought of that TBH - Ill keep in mind when i look into it again prob be next year as still settling in and doing some internal updating !

Truthvader

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But why wouldn't you tidy things up.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/church-of-england-vicar-and-wife-claim-rights-to-historic-estate-lands-in-sligo-1.641335?mode=amp
There was another case recently I cant immediately find.

Bet €1000,000 that case went nowhere . Again dont bother wasting your time unless less than 50 years to run. Then contact Groundrent section in Land Registry

TSQ

whatever76 wrote: »

Interested in this topic - I myself purchased a house last tear but had a 500 year leasehold set in 1950's ( usual 1 pound lease but no one ever looked for it !) - so over 400 years left. I discussed with solicitor and he said yea you could move it over but he didnt see the urgency and if it worth the hassle - its not going to be my problem 400 years down the line if there was only 50 years left in the lease then I would pursue for sure but right now its down my list , unless I want to say I own the land as well.

I asked at the time the cost and he said it can vary - some are straight forward but some complex if the landlord cannot be sourced or paperwork to be found - so he didn't commit to a cost - but i think a solicitor is required so you are sure of that cost !

Absolutely no need for a solicitor if you know who the head landlord and any intermediary leaseholder are. You download the application from the Land Registry to buy the freehold by way of vesting certificate, used to cost €20 to apply, plus you lodge a multiple of the annual ground rent With the LR to be paid to the landlord, usually 8x or 10x annual rent. Your title deeds will have the name of the original headLandlord going back to the original land sale, but the current Owner(s) of the lease does need to be advised and paid, but has no right to stop you buying. If there is a history of payment of the ground rent, this info should be with the requisitions on title done when you purchased. If you don’t know the name of the head landlord, ask your solicitor to find out, or you can go to a law agent yourself to get the searches done. If it seems too complicated, you can get a solicitor to do complete the Application form for you, but it is money for nothing. If the owner of the freehold cant be traced, I am sure the Land Registry hs some way of dealing with this. Went through this process myself on a number of properties, but did have up to date details of Landlord. It is worth buying the freehold if you have a house with a potential building plot (large garden) because some old leases have t&c’s that could affect your right to build.

Note: and make sure, if using a solicitor, to tell them you want to buy by way of Vesting Certificate under the Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) Act 197X (?). they hate that, because it reduces the excuse to charge high fees.

whatever76

TSQ wrote: »

Absolutely no need for a solicitor if you know who the head landlord and any intermediary leaseholder are. You download the application from the Land Registry to buy the freehold by way of vesting certificate, used to cost €20 to apply, plus you lodge a multiple of the annual ground rent With the LR to be paid to the landlord, usually 8x or 10x annual rent. Your title deeds will have the name of the original headLandlord going back to the original land sale, but the current Owner(s) of the lease does need to be advised and paid, but has no right to stop you buying. If there is a history of payment of the ground rent, this info should be with the requisitions on title done when you purchased. If you don’t know the name of the head landlord, ask your solicitor to find out, or you can go to a law agent yourself to get the searches done. If it seems too complicated, you can get a solicitor to do complete the Application form for you, but it is money for nothing. If the owner of the freehold cant be traced, I am sure the Land Registry hs some way of dealing with this. Went through this process myself on a number of properties, but did have up to date details of Landlord. It is worth buying the freehold if you have a house with a potential building plot (large garden) because some old leases have t&c’s that could affect your right to build.

Note: and make sure, if using a solicitor, to tell them you want to buy by way of Vesting Certificate under the Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) Act 197X (?). they hate that, because it reduces the excuse to charge high fees.

Oh wow - thanks so much for such a detailed post on this - really helpful and totally puts new perspective on this for me - much appreciated !

Claw Hammer

The advantage of buying in the freehold are that it can add to the market value by increasing the quality of the title. Some purchasers want a freehold title and even if there is a leasehold at 1 cent a year for a million years won't touch it.

The Landlord doesn't have to be identified. It is possible to make an application on the basis that the landowner is unknown. The PRA will carry out an arbitration, take the purchase money and wait until the landowner turns up. The landowner will then get the money.
It is also recommended to go to arbitration than do a deal with the landowner in any case.
Once an arbitration has been done there is no need to look behind it which does not apply in respect of a negotiated agreement.
Most solicitors say not to bother with it as they are only concerned with the legal implications rather than the marketing implications.
With regard to the vesting certificate, it is no good on its own and has to be registered or it will cease to have effect.

ebayissues

Roughly, how much money would it cost to convert a leasehold to a freehold? 5k/10k?

Claw Hammer

ebayissues wrote: »

Roughly, how much money would it cost to convert a leasehold to a freehold? 5k/10k?

Can be up to 1/8 of the value of the property plus costs down to a few hundred euro.

Truthvader

Most of the above re not owning the freehold affecting the value of the house and paying one eight of the market value is nonsense.

1 Solicitors dont bother buying in freeholds cos they cant be arsed wasting their time.

2 As per above if you cant live without the freehold you can amuse yourself in the Land Registry. The cost will only be about €300. So off you go. Or save your money and book a weekend away

Housebuying

ebayissues wrote: »

Roughly, how much money would it cost to convert a leasehold to a freehold? 5k/10k?

We had 30 years left on the lease when we were selling. Decided to buy it out before we sold so as it it would not hold up the sale. I'd say it cost €300 including solicitor fees

Claw Hammer

Truthvader wrote: »

Most of the above re not owning the freehold affecting the value of the house and paying one eight of the market value is nonsense.

1 Solicitors dont bother buying in freeholds cos they cant be arsed wasting their time.

2 As per above if you cant live without the freehold you can amuse yourself in the Land Registry. The cost will only be about €300. So off you go. Or save your money and book a weekend away

You know very little about it. If there is less than 20 years left on the lease, the purchase price is 1/8 of the market value. If the property is not on registered land, and most are not, then there is compulsory first registration which will result in land registry, mapping and most likely solicitor costs.
Not every interest can be enlarged for €300.

Bru79

Housebuying wrote: »

We had 30 years left on the lease when we were selling. Decided to buy it out before we sold so as it it would not hold up the sale. I'd say it cost €300 including solicitor fees

How long did the process take?
We are in the process of buying a house with a short time left on leasehold, vendors solicitor has set the ball rolling on changing to freehold but it's not sorted yet and holding up the contracts

Baby01032012

Would you not just proceed with purchase and change after. It’s a lost cost formality.

Bru79

Baby01032012 wrote: »

Would you not just proceed with purchase and change after. It’s a lost cost formality.

It's holding up the sale. Contract can't be drawn up until it's sorted.

House we're selling is sale agreed and closing date is 4 weeks away.....

Baby01032012

Baby01032012 wrote: »

Would you not just proceed with purchase and change after. It’s a lost cost formality.

This

ebayissues

Proceed with the sale. If the leasehold has less than 50yrs it could be an issue. Not a marketable title or something.


My solicitor wanted 1.2k for changing after post sale. Told him nope.

Bru79

Baby01032012 wrote: »

This

Maybe I didn't make myself clear......
The sale won't proceed until this is sorted, not my decision. Solicitor can't draw up contracts without it.
I'm looking for info on how long it takes

Dolbhad

Bru79 wrote: »

Maybe I didn't make myself clear......
The sale won't proceed until this is sorted, not my decision. Solicitor can't draw up contracts without it.
I'm looking for info on how long it takes

It’s hard to say. Depends on what’s happening. Can the owner of the freehold be found and willing to sell? It so it could be quick. For example a lot of old council Houses are leasehold and Cork City Council is the freeholder owner and they would always sell. If the freehold owner can’t be found (application in Land Registry) or won’t sell (so Court application to County registrar) then can take months and months.

Follow your advice from the solicitor.

Samuel T. Cogley

I bought mine from the council, had to wait for them to have a meeting to agree to sell it. Took a while and I imagine it would be even longer now. AFAIK good marketable title is 70 years but I expect it could vary from bank to bank.

Bru79

Dolbhad wrote: »

It’s hard to say. Depends on what’s happening. Can the owner of the freehold be found and willing to sell? It so it could be quick. For example a lot of old council Houses are leasehold and Cork City Council is the freeholder owner and they would always sell. If the freehold owner can’t be found (application in Land Registry) or won’t sell (so Court application to County registrar) then can take months and months.

Follow your advice from the solicitor.

Galway county council own the lease.
My wife's aunt is selling us the house and her solicitor has applied to buy the freehold.
Current status is "Mapping"

Dolbhad

Bru79 wrote: »

Galway county council own the lease.
My wife's aunt is selling us the house and her solicitor has applied to buy the freehold.
Current status is "Mapping"

Okay well that’s all great news! Mapping is the longest part of any application to the Land Registry as a new folio number needs to be corrected. Once it shows as “mapped” which is next, the application should be done shortly after.

The biggest delay is the Council. You can’t move them along - they take as long as they take.

Carnadoe

Would appreciate advice please..

I'm selling a terraced house which has Freehold on the title, but also shows a burden of a 500 year lease. There is 435 yrs left to run on the lease. I thought freehold meant there was no lease. Sooo...would buyers have a problem with a 435 year lease ? Is it my responsibility to have it removed ?

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120794311#Comment_120794311

Are you sure you don't own both the leasehold and freehold titles?

Carnadoe

It's a terraced house in a large estate in Dublin. Folio has F (meaning freehold) on it...but also has the lease burden mentioned on 2nd page. Had a look on Land Direct after I posted, and it appears most of the houses are exactly the same...with the exception of a few that have sold in recent years. They either appear to have had the burden removed...or...there is an application which is "awaiting attention ". I'd be fairly sure the ground rent was bought out. It's an odd one....but feel better now that I know its the same story for all the houses. Makes me think the resolution must be relatively straightforward..

theboringfox

I bought our house when was leasehold. Dates back to 50s. Leasehold wasnt being collected it was so small. I went about getting it myself. You've to first attempt ro buy it out but if no response as in my case you can look to get the vesting interest by paying nominal fee

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120796247#Comment_120796247

That doesn't mean you don't own both the leasehold and the free hold. have you obtained a copy of the Folio and seen who the parties to the lease are?

Carnadoe

It was my Mums house. I have the original lease from 1959 when my parents purchased the house. The lease mentions the builder and the original owner of the land and a charge of £10 per yr. I'm fairly confident she did own the lease, but it seems the paperwork was never updated..

Thanks for your reply

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120802419#Comment_120802419

You parents took an assignment of the lease in 1959. At some point the freehold was acquired. The law society do not recommend merging the titles until 20 years has passed from the date of acquisition of the freehold. Most liklely you own both titles and the Land Registry simply reflects that there has been no merger. Any sale 20 years after purchase of the freehold will be merged so what you are seeing on landdirect is a mix of merged and non-merged titles.

Carnadoe

So, does the merger happen automatically...or is it something I have look after ?

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120803793#Comment_120803793

You don't have to merge. It will only be an issue when you are selling. If you sell before the 20 years you will sell bot titles, after you will do a merger and sell one title.

Carnadoe

Thanks a mil. You have been very helpful. We are actually putting the house up for sale soon. Don't suppose you have any idea of the cost of merging the titles ?

Claw Hammer

How long is it since the freehold was acquireed?

Carnadoe

Wouldn't be sure when it was acquired, but I'd say more than 30yrs ago anyway..