Higher taxes inevitable because of COVID19

salonfire

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Rising public debt is the least of our worries,

Absolutely stupid, misguided comment. After every thing the country has gone through.

Do you know what happens to countries with a high level of public debt that becomes unplayable? The IMF.

Do you know what the IMF means? Look at Ireland a few years ago.

You ought to be banned for persistent trolling.

Geuze

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Rising public debt is the least of our worries, rising private and corporate debt is where the problem lies, if defaults and non performing loans increase in these sectors, expect our old banking issues to resurface, our rising deficit will be the least of our worries, as it could be the only game in town to get our economies going again, this is gonna get interesting but maybe a little scary

Household debt has been falling in Ireland as people repair their balance sheets, pay off mortgages, and build up assets.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!

No more lone parents allowance unless the parent is widowed. Having children outside a stable relationship is your own responsibility.

Abolish quangos like pavee point and women's council. What discrimination are they actually facing?

Slash teachers' pay to UK levels. It's too high.

Raise the price of fags to €20 per box.

Remove the M50 toll and replace it with a €20 toll to drive in the city centre.

Add cameras to all bus lanes. €500 per infringement.

Abolish all public sector unions, especially the TUI and ASTI. Nurses' and bus drivers' unions will remain though.

Geuze

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'd agree. By "alternative taxes" you mean conventional taxes like tax on labour and tax on transactions. But we so rarely talk about tax on income earned through having wealth.

If you rely on labour to earn a living, you're eligible for lots of tax. Of you earn a living from inherited wealth and investment, then you're eligible for lower tax (before you get into tax avoidance).

Can you specifically describe these lower income taxes on income from inherited wealth and investment?

AFAIK, income tax on rental income is the same whether you bought or inherited the property?

Also, AFAIK, dividend and CGT taxes are the same, whether or not you inherited or bought the underlying assets?

10000maniacs

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

OK you said that in the OP. Anything else?

There is no way of sugar coating the economic disaster that is waiting around the corner. We can only mitigate it slightly by being prudent. Here's 2 things off the top of my head.
1: Increase corporate tax by at least 5%.
2: Getting rid of the TV license fee will put €155 extra per year in peoples pockets. Who will miss RTE?

Geuze

10000maniacs wrote: »

There is no way of sugar coating the economic disaster that is waiting around the corner. We can only mitigate it slightly by being prudent. Here's 2 things off the top of my head.
1: Increase corporate tax by at least 5%.

This is un-realistic, and is not going to happen.

twowheelsonly

10000maniacs wrote: »

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/coronavirus/tds-to-be-told-that-higher-taxes-are-necessary-to-offset-the-economic-fallout-from-covid-19/ar-BB15xP7G?ocid=msedgdhp

Well, the middle ground are already taxed to the rafters as a consequence of the economic fallout of the last crash in 2008.
Simply, we cannot afford those 50,000 social houses. Building those houses is living beyond our means. All that Green goody goody crap is living beyond our means too. We can't afford it.
Any views?

Renting those houses from private landlords and investment or vulture funds is what we can't afford. Renting hotel rooms for families whilst we wait on private builders to come along with their next tranche of houses to supply to the state is what we can't afford.
Local councils stopping their own building in the early '90s is what started the real spiral of rising property prices and 'homelessness'.

To get back to your question, I think that it's inevitable that there will be rising taxes. I also think that it's inevitable that the 'middle' will be squeezed the most. Everyone wants someone else to pay and everyone considers others making more money than them to be the wealthy. The fella on 30k thinks the fella on 60k is wealthy but he thinks the fella on 90k is wealthy and so on. There is no definition of where middle ends and wealthy begins.

El_Duderino 09

Geuze wrote: »

Can you specifically describe these lower income taxes on income from inherited wealth and investment?

AFAIK, income tax on rental income is the same whether you bought or inherited the property?

Also, AFAIK, dividend and CGT taxes are the same, whether or not you inherited or bought the underlying assets?

Yeah both divedend and CGT are significantly lower than tax on work. That's crazy.

Diarmuid

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah both divedend and CGT are significantly lower than tax on work. That's crazy.

Wrong. Dividends are taxed at marginal tax rate

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah both divedend and CGT are significantly lower than tax on work. That's crazy.

Nothing stopping you buying shares .... how do you by shares? With after tax income. So actually you are taxed twice.

I have a very small limited company, I looked into buying shares through it. Would actually be taxed more than just buying them out of after tax income - which BTW I pay just like everyone else. On top of that if I have any money left over I have to pay 12.5% corporation tax on any money I want to keep in the company for next year to pay my wages in a downturn. So an extra 12.5% tax for being financially wise.

Every euro I make is accounted for and VAT paid on it at 23%. And if I miss a VAT return by even a few days, as I once did in 10 years of trading due to a bank error, the bailiffs letter is sent out.

Many MNCs pay employees partially in shares. These people have to pay the 33% CGT on any rise in value on these which is pretty close to the top marginal tax rate. We are already taxed to the hilt here.

Geuze

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah both divedend and CGT are significantly lower than tax on work. That's crazy.

Dividends are taxed at regular rates of income tax.

CGT at 33% is lower than the top MTR on income, yes.


However, as the income used to buy an asset has already been taxed, should the gain on owning the asset also be taxed at income tax rates?

El_Duderino 09

Diarmuid wrote: »

Wrong. Dividends are taxed at marginal tax rate

You're right.

facehugger99

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Rising public debt is the least of our worries, rising private and corporate debt is where the problem lies, if defaults and non performing loans increase in these sectors, expect our old banking issues to resurface, our rising deficit will be the least of our worries, as it could be the only game in town to get our economies going again, this is gonna get interesting but maybe a little scary

€200bn of debt and on-course to borrow another €30bn this year alone but sure there's noting to worry about folks :rolleyes:

The kids and grandkids can just pay for it all I'd imagine - sorry future generations but we can't be arsed living within our means so it's up to you guys.

El_Duderino 09

Geuze wrote: »

Dividends are taxed at regular rates of income tax.

CGT at 33% is lower than the top MTR on income, yes.


However, as the income used to buy an asset has already been taxed, should the gain on owning the asset also be taxed at income tax rates?

That's the way everything else works. Your Income is taxed (labour taxed higher than CGT).

Capital gain isn't spending money, it's earning money. And money earned by people working is taxed at a higher rate than money earned by money working. That's bananas.

ednwireland

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

Abolish all public sector unions, especially the TUI and ASTI. Nurses' and bus drivers' unions will remain though.

from a bus driver married to a nurse

or a nurse married to a bus driver

?

facehugger99

facehugger99 wrote: »

€200bn of debt and on-course to borrow another €30bn this year alone but sure there's noting to worry about folks :rolleyes:

The kids and grandkids can just pay for it all I'd imagine - sorry future generations but we can't be arsed living within our means so it's up to you guys.

€1 billion on PPE and €1 billion on tests for COVID, yet there is almost no one in the hospitals with it now. Yet no one is questioning this. War over €3 billion for a children's hospital - something that at least will be there for our lifetimes.

Podge_irl

salonfire wrote: »

Absolutely stupid, misguided comment. After every thing the country has gone through.

Do you know what happens to countries with a high level of public debt that becomes unplayable? The IMF.

Do you know what the IMF means? Look at Ireland a few years ago.

You ought to be banned for persistent trolling.

Why would Ireland need the IMF when rates are low and bond issues are oversubscribed?

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That's the way everything else works. Your Income is taxed (labour taxed higher than CGT).

Capital gain isn't spending money, it's earning money. And money earned by people working is taxed at a higher rate than money earned by money working. That's bananas.

Thing is, it used to be 20%. Now it's 33%. If you increase it more, then no one will invest in anything. People who bought Eircom shares would have been liable for it if Eircom hadn't tanked like a lead balloon.

You can avail of this "generous" tax rate by investing in a mutual fund from as little as €75 / month - example here : https://www.zurich.ie/funds/fund-products/multi-assets/prisma-funds/prisma-4/ . Get rich too !!!!

Geuze

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That's the way everything else works. Your Income is taxed (labour taxed higher than CGT).

Capital gain isn't spending money, it's earning money. And money earned by people working is taxed at a higher rate than money earned by money working. That's bananas.

My main income is wages. Out of the wages, I save.

I acquire financial assets, e.g. shares.

I pay my MTR on any dividends from the shares.

Let's say the shares rise in value, and I sell and make a gain.

Should the capital gain be taxed at?

(1) zero
(2) less than my MTR on income
(3) the same as my MTR on income

10000maniacs

The Green Party/Shinners magic money trees needs to knocked down and soon.
I can't remember an economic argument from either party that ever held water, and I mean ever. And I am middle aged so have seen a lot of election campaigns.

Geuze

Deleted User wrote: »

€1 billion on PPE and €1 billion on tests for COVID, yet there is almost no one in the hospitals with it now. Yet no one is questioning this. War over €3 billion for a children's hospital - something that at least will be there for our lifetimes.

An interesting point.

The PPE costs are staggering.

El_Duderino 09

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Thing is, it used to be 20%. Now it's 33%. If you increase it more, then no one will invest in anything. People who bought Eircom shares would have been liable for it if Eircom hadn't tanked like a lead balloon.

That's an argument for not taxing the wealth and taxing labour (if taxes need to be raised). Do you advocate for raising taxes on the middle?

Geuze

Geuze wrote: »

An interesting point.

The PPE costs are staggering.

There is something rotten for sure. The HSE budget for 2019 was about €17 billion. This is over 11% of the total 2019 health budget. Someone is making a LOT of money somewhere.

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That's an argument for not taxing the wealth and taxing labour (if taxes need to be raised). Do you advocate for raising taxes on the middle?

I don't. I actually think we need a big housebuilding programme, most of the money spent on this will go back into the domestic economy, and generate additional economic activity. Now is the right time, with the economy on the floor. Otherwise we borrow money and pump it into more welfare programmes.

El_Duderino 09

10000maniacs wrote: »

The Green Party/Shinners magic money trees needs to knocked down and soon.
I can't remember an economic argument from either party that ever held water, and I mean ever. And I am middle aged so have seen a lot of election campaigns.

OK to call it the "Green Party/Shinners magic money trees" but none of them have been in power during Covid. The "magic money tree" up to now has been a FF/G project.

Snow Garden

10000maniacs wrote: »

The Green Party/Shinners magic money trees needs to knocked down and soon.
I can't remember an economic argument from either party that ever held water, and I mean ever. And I am middle aged so have seen a lot of election campaigns.

Yes the SF folks are the ultimate in growing money trees but have you seen the costings for this new program for government? It's all pie in the sky stuff too.
They will need an orchard of money trees to fulfill that plan.

They will have to improve an awful lot on FG's massively wasteful public spending and estimations (Irish Water, Broadband, Childrens hospital etc).

thegetawaycar

There's plenty of scope to tax and make savings.
Some areas I'd like to see is:
1. Council rent being taken at source from social housing tenants, no need to pay staff to call around and end up not collecting it.
2. A limit on amounts of free usage of medical card for those without chronic illness
3. USC being changed to incorporate a 1% tax on income starting at €1 (the amount of people paying 0 tax is huge compared to other countries)
4. No single parent allowance (a widows allowance would be fine), cap of 3 children for child benefit
5. Reducing welfare over time, if you are more than 2 years unemployed you should be offered public service jobs (street cleaning, graffitti removal etc...) and if you refuse benefits cut (disability not included obviously), No bonus for not working at Christmas
6. No more sales of public housing, stock should remain public and if you want to own a house, buy one at the market rate.
7. Increase public housing stock and offset by not paying hotels or renting 4K apartments
8. All public sector payments to be transparent, allowances rolled into pay so it can be properly reviewed
9. Increase the property tax (take at source), take back council bin collection (set up large bins for neighbourhood usage), there would be no need for clean up of illegal waste if the bin collection was public and accessible to all
10. Tax individuals who live here for less than 180 days on the proportion of days in the country and not only if over 180 days here
11. Tax excessive energy usage from data centres
12. Post graduation working expectations on doctors, nurses, teachers, Vets, physios etc... If you had free education, a minimum of 2/3 years must be spent working in the public system, move abroad without giving back and be liable for fees.

There's plenty more but those ones are a start.

Manach

There is only so much cash to be squeezed from inhabitants of a state before it becomes unfeasible - eg the Laffrey curve. Whilst the progressive parties are enamoured of large governments and welfare systems based on an every increasing spirial of entitlements, to paraphase a certain M. Thatcher, they are bound to run out of other people's money at some stage.

10000maniacs

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

OK to call it the "Green Party/Shinners magic money trees" but none of them have been in power during Covid. The "magic money tree" up to now has been a FF/G project.

You don't need to be in power to make idiotic economic statements.
At least FG made a reasonable if flawed attempt to get us out of the huge hole we were in 10 years ago. FF dug that particular hole.

Snow Garden

10000maniacs wrote: »

You don't need to be in power to make idiotic economic statements.
At least FG made a reasonable if flawed attempt to get us out of the huge hole we were in 10 years ago. FF dug that particular hole.

I believe FG followed the exact same economic policies that FF/IMF/EU initiated or mandated. Correct? Enda showed zero leadership/vision.

Can you identify the FG policy that got us out of the massive hole?
Maybe it was 'Not another red cent'?
or
'Frankfurt's way or Labours way'?



The people of Ireland and some flush MNCs got us out of the hole. Not FG/Lab.

FG and FF did oversee the years of massive borrowing (with very little social welfare or public sector reform) and somehow added billions of private banking debt to our national debt (64bn) which will cripple us now. The EU will remember the bullets we took....or will they....?