All ICE imports to be banned from 2030 - incl used...

galwaytt

er, discuss...

https://amp-irishexaminer-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/new-petrol-and-diesel-cars-to-be-banned-by-2030-under-proposed-climate-action-bill-973833.html?amp_js_v=a3&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=15922248396167&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s

New petrol and diesel cars to be banned by 2030 under proposed Climate Action Bill

This Climate Action Bill will force transport, agriculture, and energy sectors, which are most responsible for rising CO2 emissions, to get their houses in order over the next 10 years by enshrining targets into law.

"Other European markets are thinking more about 2040. We feel that would be a more realistic target. In the past, we've set targets and deadlines without having a plan. This is putting the cart before the horse."

"The new draft law Minister Bruton announced will be published today will be the real test of whether Leo Varadkar's government is serious about stepping up on climate change," said Oisín Coghlan, coordinator with Stop Climate Chaos.

Leonard Hofstadter

Way to make sure car sales go through the floor for the next 10 years.

We all know how tone deaf the Greens are to the needs of everyone that doesn't live in the wealthy parts of South County Dublin, but evidently the leadership of FF and FG thinks that their voters' needs, and the needs of the rest of the country don't matter either.

Will be fun to see how this works out given that EVs are currently 3% of the new car sales mix.

Also a proposal in the PfG to review speed limits with a view to reducing carbon emissions, so say goodbye to 120 km/h motorways, which are NOT fast for motorways to begin with.

Atlantic Dawn

Being anti nuclear but happy to take nuclear generated electricity from the UK and France to charge all these new electric cars is another mess.

colm_mcm

Let’s ban turf and wood burning stoves first. How about oil fired central heating while we’re at it.


Thought not.

marcos_94

colm_mcm wrote: »

Let’s ban turf and wood burning stoves first. How about oil fired central heating while we’re at it.


Thought not.

Thats all hopefully coming as well:
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0617/1055740-boilers/

There will be a crackdown on new central heating systems in particular to begin as well as incentives to get people to install heat pumps and the likes to replace their oil and gas boilers.

ianobrien

2029 will be a bumper year for vehicle sales....

There no point in us putting out these targets. It's the availability of vehicles that will decide if we can make it or not. None of the manufacturers will be altering their plans based on this. Ireland is such a small market.

Also lumped into this is light commercial vehicles (according to the draft of the agreement I've seen online). If this is true, that's some laugh as imagine the postman or courier trying to do deliveries in West Cork or Connemara with a short range. Sure the range is only about 100km loaded. That won't work (when compared to a car range of 300/400km)

ianobrien

marcos_94 wrote: »

Thats all hopefully coming as well:
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0617/1055740-boilers/

There will be a crackdown on new central heating systems in particular to begin as well as incentives to get people to install heat pumps and the likes to replace their oil and gas boilers.

I know a plumber who when building his house, put in both a heat pump and oil fired boiler (being a plumber he could). The oil heating was cheaper then running the heat pumps.

marcos_94

ianobrien wrote: »

It's the availability of vehicles that will decide if we can make it or not. None of the manufacturers will be altering their plans based on this. Ireland is such a small market.

Completely agree, but Ireland being so small means we can be quite easily catered for. Volkswagen group aim to have 70 different EV models available by 2028 for example https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news/2019/03/VW_Group_JPK_19.html

Also lumped into this is light commercial vehicles (according to the draft of the agreement I've seen online). If this is true, that's some laugh as imagine the postman or courier trying to do deliveries in West Cork or Connemara with a short range. Sure the range is only about 100km loaded. That won't work (when compared to a car range of 300/400km)

The An Post centre near me has got a fleet of electric vans at the start of the year (maybe 10-12). It will be interesting to see how their experience goes. Real world tests of the electric kangoo put its real world range around 200 km

Del2005

They'll need to do something so that people who don't have their own charger can get access to cheap charging, no incentive to change to EV when you have to pay a premium to wait 40 minutes, or more if you have to queue, to refill their car.

marcos_94

ianobrien wrote: »

I know a plumber who when building his house, put in both a heat pump and oil fired boiler (being a plumber he could). The oil heating was cheaper then running the heat pumps.

Id easily believe that. Retrofitting a heat pump into an older house isnt great efficiency wise. Youd want to first tackle insulation and have a very well insulated house to fully reap the benefits of a heat pump

galwaytt

funnily enough, I thought we were in the EU, which guarantees the freedom of goods, so on what basis could any ban be implemented if it's contrary to EU law - seeing as they won't be banned across the EU ?

Cantona's Collars

marcos_94 wrote: »

Completely agree, but Ireland being so small means we can be quite easily catered for. Volkswagen group aim to have 70 different EV models available by 2028 for example https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news/2019/03/VW_Group_JPK_19.html



The An Post centre near me has got a fleet of electric vans at the start of the year (maybe 10-12). It will be interesting to see how their experience goes. Real world tests of the electric kangoo put its real world range around 200 km

I know someone who was given an electric van to test in real world conditions. An absolute disaster in his words.

Leonard Hofstadter

It is contrary to EU law... for now anyway. I understood there was a constitutional ban of some sort, but I think that relates to forcing petrol and diesel off the road.

I'll be sticking with ICE until such time as I'm forced to. It might make V8 ownership more affordable if prices go through the floor and will have the added advantage of annoying the eco mentalists in the Green party, too.

cgcsb

The emphasis isn't solely on a transition to EVs the emphasis is on moving away from cars entirely. Ultimately there isn't enough lithium and cobolt on Earth for every western world household to afford an EV. The transport budget is being re-balanced in favour of PT/walking and cycling.

They stop short of curtailing one off housing which is really rural Ireland's biggest issue in terms of transport. I guess they have it sussed that natural economic factors will reduce the rural population anyway.

marcos_94

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

I know someone who was given an electric van to test in real world conditions. An absolute disaster in his words.

I definitely think that electric vans dont suit every need right now, but they can only get better as battery tech improves and battery costs come down. Only experience Iv personally had with electric vans was while working in rural Denmark at a chemical processing plant where they had two electric Mercedes Vitos. Suited the needs of the plant at the time (4 years ago)

tom1ie

I regularly do 1000km a week in my diesel insignia, with one way trips of 300km and no destination charging available.
What ev car is there that can do this without having to charge 5 times a week, that doesn’t cost over 10k?
If my insignia broke down tomorrow I could pick another one up for less than 10k.
There isn’t one. I don’t even think a model s or 3 can do this and they cost 45k plus.

marcos_94

tom1ie wrote: »

I regularly do 1000km a week in my diesel insignia, with one way trips of 300km and no destination charging available.
What ev car is there that can do this without having to charge 5 times a week, that doesn’t cost over 10k?
If my insignia broke down tomorrow I could pick another one up for less than 10k.
There isn’t one. I don’t even think a model s or 3 can do this and they cost 45k plus.

Completely agree that used electric cars arent cheap enough yet nor do they have the range to suit everyone's needs. In your case, they probably wont fit your criteria (sub 10k cost, 500km range minimum) until mid 2020s earliest, but a technology has to start somewhere. Think of how far ICE vehicles have advanced since their inception. battery technology is advancing at a rapid rate both in terms of cost and technology.

Never looked it up before but found article from the UK of the longest range EVs available to them:
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electric/longest-range-electric-cars-ev/

TrailerBob

It's a pander to the greens to get them into Government. It also doesn't mean the current fleet or that sold up until 2030 will be going away anytime soon. You simply can't force people to buy a new car. Until a relatively reliable second hand EV can be had for 5 grand, there's a lot of people who can't do a whole lot.

zilog_jones

tom1ie wrote: »

I regularly do 1000km a week in my diesel insignia, with one way trips of 300km and no destination charging available.
What ev car is there that can do this without having to charge 5 times a week, that doesn’t cost over 10k?
If my insignia broke down tomorrow I could pick another one up for less than 10k.
There isn’t one. I don’t even think a model s or 3 can do this and they cost 45k plus.

If this goes ahead and that's your budget, it's not going to be a problem for you for at least another 20 years or so. Would you even be doing the same job by then?

cnocbui

galwaytt wrote: »

funnily enough, I thought we were in the EU, which guarantees the freedom of goods, so on what basis could any ban be implemented if it's contrary to EU law - seeing as they won't be banned across the EU ?

You were wrong to be thinking that: import duty on vehicles, some people call VRT and excise duty on alcohol, being just two examples of how the EU does not have a common market, by any stretch of the imagination.

Triangle

TrailerBob wrote: »

It's a pander to the greens to get them into Government. It also doesn't mean the current fleet or that sold up until 2030 will be going away anytime soon. You simply can't force people to buy a new car. Until a relatively reliable second hand EV can be had for 5 grand, there's a lot of people who can't do a whole lot.

FG had already signed up to 7% reductions through the Paris agreement they signed.
FF know it has to be done as well. SF have signed up to reductions too.

Why do people keep thinking this is all the greens. The carbon tax was increased without the greens being in power. Now to mention the closure of two fossil fuel burning power plants.

kirving

Standard short sighted populist "Green" thinking. FF/Green government re-introduced duty on E85 (BioEthanol), because tailpipe CO2 is high. In fact, it's the cleanest ICE fuel you can use, and almost carbon neutral due to the growing process absorbing CO2. All they cared about promoting Diesel sales for their mates in SIMI rather than actually looking at the science.

They don't actually care a whole lot about long term Green transport policy outside of rabbiting on about cycling, which is completely unsustainable without real investment and action on mass transit (and I'm an avid cyclist too btw). Guts of 20 years from a range of governments talking about a non-existent Metro in Dublin, and you can forget the rest of the country where one-off housing and bad planning has all but made private cars a necessity.

Outright banning ICE cars is not the solution, at all, but certainly makes a great soundbite and headline, and noone delves any deeper into why this country is so reliant on cars.

It seems to me that the balance of incentives is always weighted heavily toward punishing than it is to rewarding the desired behaviour.

Where is our high-speed rail, metro, Luas in every major city, interconnected to regular bus services, planning policy which accounts for viability of public transport (ie: ban one off housing and encourage villages as in the UK)? Build it and they will come as the saying goes, and then car emissions suddenly aren't a problem anymore, because people will actually use other modes if available.

Royale with Cheese

Surely they mean a ban on pure ICE, as in you will still be free to buy a plug-in hybrid and then never charge it once. Possibly even just regular hybrids too?

zilog_jones

cnocbui wrote: »

You were wrong to be thinking that: import duty on vehicles, some people call VRT and excise duty on alcohol, being just two examples of how the EU does not have a common market, by any stretch of the imagination.

VRT is a tax on any vehicle being registered in Ireland, regardless of whether it is imported or not, or from outside the EU. If cars were still being assembled in Ireland, VRT would still be applicable on these. If theoretical Irish-built cars were exempt from VRT, then that would be a problem with the EU.

The Netherlands, Denmark and other countries in the EU also have punitive taxes on car registration, as they are allowed to do.

Leonard Hofstadter

The other example of how short sighted and idiotic they are is that hybrids and plug ins will not be excluded from the ban. So there is absolutely no reason to get one now. One argument for getting them is that they are more future proofed than a traditional ICE car, not any more. You might as well buy a traditional ICE which is cheaper to buy, not that much dearer to run (depending on usage), handles way better due to lighter weight and no compromises in terms of boot space or fuel tank capacity.

This has just killed off plug ins (which in the right circumstances are useful for reducing CO2 emissions) stone dead.

colm_mcm

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

The other example of how short sighted and idiotic they are is that hybrids and plug ins will not be excluded from the ban. So there is absolutely no reason to get one now. One argument for getting them is that they are more future proofed than a traditional ICE car, not any more. You might as well buy a traditional ICE which is cheaper to buy, not that much dearer to run (depending on usage), handles way better due to lighter weight and no compromises in terms of boot space or fuel tank capacity.

This has just killed off plug ins (which in the right circumstances are useful for reducing CO2 emissions) stone dead.

Plug in hybrids are only a stopgap at best, and a conjob at worst.
Carrying around an ICE just on the offchance you might need it, or using an electric motor to cheat emissions cycles?

Royale with Cheese

colm_mcm wrote: »

Plug in hybrids are only a stopgap at best, and a conjob at worst.
Carrying around an ICE just on the offchance you might need it, or using an electric motor to cheat emissions cycles?

Depends entirely on your situation. If you live in the city and the vast majority of your journies are within Dublin then they can make a lot of sense. My parents picked up a plug in Kia Niro in February and I think are still on their first tank of petrol (covid obviously made a difference there though). They'd never go full electric as they have understandable concerns about spending that much on a car that might not be suitable for 100% of they journies they would take, but they were more than happy to purchase a car that will emit no co2 for the majority of its use by them.

cournioni

Pure idiocy once again from our shambles of a government.

zilog_jones

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

The other example of how short sighted and idiotic they are is that hybrids and plug ins will not be excluded from the ban. So there is absolutely no reason to get one now.

What are you on about? The plans proposed have absolutely no effect on the car you buy now.

hmmm

I mightn't entirely like it, but good to get certainty and we can get on with putting the infrastructure in place now. It's also far enough away that the next government can suspend it if needed.

cnocbui

hmmm wrote: »

I mightn't entirely like it, but good to get certainty and we can get on with putting the infrastructure in place now. It's also far enough away that the next government can suspend it if needed.

You mean like how when governments that followed the last bunch of green loons in power, and reversed the taxation bias against petrol vs diesel?