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  • 09-06-2020 10:00pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭ Ghost Recon


    Went out to zero a new scope this evening.
    Thought I had everything spot on re. technique.
    Shooting a .22LR at 50 metres (accurately measured).
    Rifle: CZ 455 (with moderator).
    Ammo: Eley 40 grain subsonic.
    Wind was at my back and minimal (sub-5km/hr).
    See groups and supplied info.
    Any comments/advice?


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭ Ghost Recon


    Went out to zero a new scope this evening.
    Thought I had everything spot on re. technique.
    Shooting a .22LR at 50 metres (accurately measured).
    Rifle: CZ 455 (with moderator).
    Ammo: Eley 40 grain subsonic.
    Wind was at my back and minimal (sub-5km/hr).
    See groups and supplied info.
    Any comments/advice?

    Photos now attached, 🙄


  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭ Ghost Recon


    Photos now attached, 🙄

    And the other one, 🙄


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭ tudderone


    You seem to be getting good groups with a flyer. Are your bedding screws tight ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭ Ghost Recon


    tudderone wrote: »
    You seem to be getting good groups with a flyer. Are your bedding screws tight ?

    Thanks - didn’t even think of that - will check tomorrow!


  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭ Ghost Recon


    Were you using a bipod and rear bag? I would suggest trying sk rifle match in your rifle. It shoots with outstanding accuracy in my cz. I've always found the eley subsonic to give average accuracy.

    Here's a five shot group at 30 yards with SK rifle match in my cz 455.

    Yes, shooting from prone, using a bipod and rear bag.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 473 ✭✭ The pigeon man


    Were you using a bipod and rear bag? I would suggest trying sk rifle match in your rifle. It shoots with outstanding accuracy in my cz. I've always found the eley subsonic to give average accuracy.

    Here's a five shot group at 30 yards with SK rifle match in my cz 455.

    (Link was broken so had to delete and repost)


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    To be honest the groups are fine for hunting, ammo may produce flyers due to inconsistency of production. Do you recall when the flyer happens, is it random or coming close to or being the last shot. Are you racing your shots or the opposite taking too long and causing stress. No need to answer, these are for reflection.
    Did you rezero between groups as depicted in the pictures.
    The target boys may be able to give feed back as to issue with hold and shot release if your getting consistent grouping in one particular direction.

    What scope are you using and what mag is it on. Higher mag can cause the image to move due to magnification of bodily or external movement.

    I would advise you to use a finer dot and or only a cross as an aiming point, set the cross up in the correct plain horizontal and vertical. Shoot from a good rest preferably from the prone postion and use frount and rear rests to eliminate any movement etc. Address the target correctly with a natural point of aim, your body should not be strained nor the rifle forced in the direction of the target. Take a bead on the target, close your eyes relax but keep the aim, open your eyes and see if your still on target. There are different trains of thought on which way the body should lie in the direction of the target, find one that works consistently for you. While in the aiming postion do the breathing test, if you've got a good position and rest the only difference in sight picture should be the rise and fall of your aim point vertically through the point of aim. Any weaving or circleing means you haven't a good hold or postion.

    Eliminate all shooter error before going to mechanical. If you can put in a 1/4 inch group each and every time 6 inches off to the right at say 3 o'clock then its the equipment not the shooter. If your chasing your shots around the board then its either you or the rifle. Solution give it to someone else to shoot and see what happens.

    Again I say theres not too much wrong with the grouping. Don't chase the rainbow, and being too finicky, eliminate the flyers and thats great shooting. You will get deminishing returns flogging a field gun with bedding, triggers, springs etc etc. You'll bury a chunk if money into the rifle for very little difference in group size. Now if your chasing competitions thats another matter and someone else here will help you spend your money. But if you want to bash bunnies or plink I think you have what you want.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭ tudderone


    Try CCI standard too, always found them good. In fact you should shoot a variety of rounds and see what the rifle likes. Never seen a CZ .22 that didn't shoot, apart from the semi-auto's. I had an old CZ with a Parker Hale steel mod and the eley rounds you are using and it was capable of tiny groups at 100 yards. But i would think its something slight with the rifle, as it is shooting a group, its the flyers thats spoiling it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭ Ghost Recon


    To be honest the groups are fine for hunting, ammo may produce flyers due to inconsistency of production. Do you recall when the flyer happens, is it random or coming close to or being the last shot. Are you racing your shots or the opposite taking too long and causing stress. No need to answer, these are for reflection.
    Did you rezero between groups as depicted in the pictures.
    The target boys may be able to give feed back as to issue with hold and shot release if your getting consistent grouping in one particular direction.

    What scope are you using and what mag is it on. Higher mag can cause the image to move due to magnification of bodily or external movement.

    I would advise you to use a finer dot and or only a cross as an aiming point, set the cross up in the correct plain horizontal and vertical. Shoot from a good rest preferably from the prone postion and use frount and rear rests to eliminate any movement etc. Address the target correctly with a natural point of aim, your body should not be strained nor the rifle forced in the direction of the target. Take a bead on the target, close your eyes relax but keep the aim, open your eyes and see if your still on target. There are different trains of thought on which way the body should lie in the direction of the target, find one that works consistently for you. While in the aiming postion do the breathing test, if you've got a good position and rest the only difference in sight picture should be the rise and fall of your aim point vertically through the point of aim. Any weaving or circleing means you haven't a good hold or postion.

    Eliminate all shooter error before going to mechanical. If you can put in a 1/4 inch group each and every time 6 inches off to the right at say 3 o'clock then its the equipment not the shooter. If your chasing your shots around the board then its either you or the rifle. Solution give it to someone else to shoot and see what happens.

    Again I say theres not too much wrong with the grouping. Don't chase the rainbow, and being too finicky, eliminate the flyers and thats great shooting. You will get deminishing returns flogging a field gun with bedding, triggers, springs etc etc. You'll bury a chunk if money into the rifle for very little difference in group size. Now if your chasing competitions thats another matter and someone else here will help you spend your money. But if you want to bash bunnies or plink I think you have what you want.

    Thanks cookimonster!
    Yes, the set-up is for bunny-bashing and hunting only.
    No, I zeroed first and then took 2x 5 consecutive shots at the black dot targets.
    The scope is a Delta Titanium 4.5-30x50 with MCZII reticle and Warne QD steel mounts.
    Shots were taken at 20x (ranging mag).
    Breathing and stable platform, etc. was as practiced and should be on point.
    As a matter of interest, is there such a thing as formal tuition re. marksmanship?
    I’d be interested in spending my money on lessons, as opposed to burying it in additional rifle upgrades and accessories...


  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭ Ghost Recon


    tudderone wrote: »
    Try CCI standard too, always found them good. In fact you should shoot a variety of rounds and see what the rifle likes. Never seen a CZ .22 that didn't shoot, apart from the semi-auto's. I had an old CZ with a Parker Hale steel mod and the eley rounds you are using and it was capable of tiny groups at 100 yards. But i would think its something slight with the rifle, as it is shooting a group, its the flyers thats spoiling it.

    Thanks tudderone!
    Yes, I’ve tried CCI, Winchester, S&B and Eley.
    I tend to get the best results with the Eleys.
    Maybe it’s just me/my technique - I need to get out and practice more!


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    I think you may need to revisit your measurements. A .22 LR bullet has an diameter of approximately 5.7mm, some of your measurements don't add up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭ Ghost Recon


    I think you may need to revisit your measurements. A .22 LR bullet has an diameter of approximately 5.7mm, some of your measurements don't add up.

    Ah, that’s just the app and it’s limitations...


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    To be honest with you 20x at that range is high. When I was younger I used a 4x and could clover leaf at 50 yards. Now with various scopes over the years I zero at 7/8 power and rarely move it off that for bunnies. My zero is 50 yards and that will get me out to 70 ish yards aiming between eye and ear I'll either be on or at further distance it will drop into the shoulders and do the biz.

    If plinking out to 100 yards I'll crank it up to 12 power or a bit more other wise it stays on the zero power of 7/8 and that does it for close in shots and is suitable for lamping.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,389 ✭✭✭ extremetaz


    To be honest with you 20x at that range is high.

    Yup.
    Too much mag for a start - you can't rule out getting stuck in your own head when you're that close in. See shake -> shake -> snatchy trigger finger

    At 50m 3-4x is the max I'd be recommending.


    Also - and I know this is going to upset the apple cart - but I have NEVER had what I'd call good results from CCI ammo. It's cheap and great for plinking, but it's not made for sub-MOA applications.

    SK, yes. Their offerings from the mid tier onwards are decent. Lapua similar.
    For my money though, it's Eley all day - and within their range, Edge is the best bang-per-buck.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Vegeta


    There was a thread on UK Varminting site a few years ago where people were asked could they put up pictures of their .22lr groups for exactly this reason. Quite a few members put up their groups with their field setups.

    From memory, your groups are in and around what people were commonly achieving. Few people doing better, majority were in and around the same as you.

    Found the thread, it's old so some pictures are gone but you'll see what I mean:
    https://ukvarminting.com/topic/35243-22lr-accuracy-expectation-challenge-3-consecutive-5-shot-groups-post-photos/


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,118 ✭✭✭ pm.


    Hey I think you will do better at a lower mag no more than 8x at 50 yards, at 20x you will not notict the movement in the scope at much as you will at 8x or less.

    When I'm at the range I have my scope on the 22 set to 10x for 100 yards and find this works for me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,182 ✭✭✭ Feisar


    Is your parallax adjustment spot on?

    Have you modded the trigger?

    Is the flyer the last shot do you know?

    Hunting ammo isn’t going to win target competitions, sure you’ll see lads posting sweet groups with it however for accuracy it’s the top tier stuff needed.

    CZ rifles are known to produce good accuracy however that the end of the day they are hunting rifles. Sometimes we expect to much.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭ zeissman


    I dont think its anything to do with the magnification that the scope is set at.
    If anything more mag would show up any problems with your set up.
    Is it a different batch of ammo by any chance ?
    I always use eley 40 grain subs and they will shoot well under a half inch at 50 yards but I opened a new brick a few weeks ago and they shot badly.
    Groups opened up to 1.5 inches.
    I cleaned the rifle and checked all screws etc and shot it again but it didn't improve.
    I had some eley target ammo which always shot well so I tried them and they shot great.
    It was just a bad batch of ammo.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,182 ✭✭✭ Feisar


    Cass put out some great info here:

    https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2058016713/1

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    zeissman wrote: »
    I dont think its anything to do with the magnification that the scope is set at.
    If anything more mag would show up any problems with your set up.

    There's plenty of online articles and discussions to disagree with your comment. The consensus is that high magnification especially at closer ranges can cause issues with accuracy and at these closer ranges it is important that the parallax is set accordingly to the range.

    I am in no way dismissing high powered scopes but they are high powered for a reason and that tends to be for distance shooting, a five or even 10 inch bull gets pretty small fairly quickly as the range increases. While on the other hand it is common for an airgunner to have a parallax adjustable scope to allow for the comparatively short range and trajectory of the pellet.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 800 ✭✭✭ Wadi14


    I'll try and keep this short,
    From all the excellent information you received here and that you will find online, and from your own knowledge, as looking at your groups you have an idea what your doing.
    Going forward.
    Bring consistency into your shooting, your rifle setup, your own position, aim and trigger control, and shot release and follow through., keep everything the same for every shot. If your shooting for groups simple things like keeping your cheek on the stock for every shot don't be lifting it off and trying to see where that round went, all the small details like that, where are your elbows where are your hands legs etc..

    Trigger control, trigger control, trigger control.

    Those things take practice, but your don't need to be sending rounds down range, all of the above can to done at home Dry Practice with a safe rifle and all ammo safely locked away.

    And as we all know its fun trying to get them groups smaller.


  • Registered Users Posts: 800 ✭✭✭ Wadi14


    On the scope debate, hunters might prefer the lower mag scopes, the target shooting on the other hand wants magnification the more he can get the better.
    I'm in the target shooter tent so shooting prone or from a bench at 50m or 100m I want more mag as I'm stationary as is my target I use 18x at 50m and 24x at 100m, and I'm looking for more lol.
    Dedicated 50m benchrest shooters are looking at nothing under 30x magnification.


  • Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭ zeissman


    There's plenty of online articles and discussions to disagree with your comment. The consensus is that high magnification especially at closer ranges can cause issues with accuracy and at these closer ranges it is important that the parallax is set accordingly to the range.

    I am in no way dismissing high powered scopes but they are high powered for a reason and that tends to be for distance shooting, a five or even 10 inch bull gets pretty small fairly quickly as the range increases. While on the other hand it is common for an airgunner to have a parallax adjustable scope to allow for the comparatively short range and trajectory of the pellet.
    22 rimfire benchrest shooters usually use 36 power scopes


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,759 Mod ✭✭✭✭ cookimonster


    zeissman wrote: »
    22 rimfire benchrest shooters usually use 36 power scopes

    Not argueing with you for the sake of it, but bench rest shooting is a different category altogether. For the true bench rest shooter the whole set up ie rifle configuration, rests, bench etc etc lends itself to a particular disapline. Am I right in saying your measuring group size by bullet diameters?

    515978.jpg


    So high mag scopes will suit such a situation and not nessecerly a sporting rifle laying prone on the grass with a harris bipod and a old pair of socks as a rear rest.


  • Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭ zeissman


    Not argueing with you for the sake of it, but bench rest shooting is a different category altogether. For the true bench rest shooter the whole set up ie rifle configuration, rests, bench etc etc lends itself to a particular disapline. Am I right in saying your measuring group size by bullet diameters?

    515978.jpg


    So high mag scopes will suit such a situation and not nessecerly a sporting rifle laying prone on the grass with a harris bipod and a old pair of socks as a rear rest.

    I'm not looking to start an argument either , I have a 4.5-22.5X50 scope on my 22.
    it has parallax adjustment down to 25 yards and I often use it at max power at 50 yard targets with good results . If you are not set up properly and unsteady you will notice straight away. If you are using a low mag scope you will be the same but you might not notice it.
    A higher mag scope will help with accurate shooting on targets no matter what the distance. I use it at lower power for hunting as you need a wider field of view.
    A lot of the fixed mag scopes like the European 6X42 models have parallax set at 100 metres and are not really suitable for shorter distances.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,174 ✭✭✭ J.R.


    Yes, the set-up is for bunny-bashing and hunting only.

    For rabbit hunting and small vermin control I'd be very satified with those groups.

    You have a very good chance of lethally hittting anthing you fire at with those groups.

    For hunting, a clean shot that wiill kill outright, with no pain or suffering, is what is needed... your groups will do that, no botrher.


  • Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭ zeissman


    Which eley subs were you using ?
    Was it the ones with the green label or the newer ones with the white label.
    The older ones always shot well for me but the new ones are all over the place.
    I need to change to something else.


  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭ Ghost Recon


    Thank you for all the comments and advice - hugely informative and much appreciated.
    The Eley subs are the old green box, 40 grain rounds.
    I've tried other ammo through the barrel; however, the Eley 40's always gave me the tightest groups.
    I'm going to see if I can get my hands on a few boxes of SK Rifle Match just to see if they make any difference (thank you for the recommendation 'the pigeon man'.
    As a self-taught and solitary shooter, I've read (and continue to read) about discipline, set-up, stability, trigger control, etc. and put all these components together for whenever I squeeze the trigger, be it shooting for groups, or out in the field hunting rabbits.
    As for some of the questions/comments above...
    1) Yes, the parallax was spot on - checked by moving head side to side and there was no discernible migration between reticle and target.
    2) Yes, the trigger was modded last year to lighten it - no obvious creep - set at 1.7lb pull.
    3) I couldn't tell if the flyer was the last shot - light was fading.
    4) Ammo is from the same batch, so I would expect it to be consistent.
    Will get out again as soon as the wind drops and continue to practice - will post up further groups using the same Eley ammo and perhaps I will also try the CCI 40g subs and Winchester 42g subs, just for the sake of comparison.
    When I receive the SK Rifle Match rounds, I will provide an update also.
    Watch this space!


  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭ Ghost Recon


    Oh, and for all the PMs re. the app I was using to measure my groups - it's a free app called SubMOA.
    https://apps.apple.com/us/app/submoa/id972446951


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  • Registered Users Posts: 456 ✭✭ Asus1


    Thank you for all the comments and advice - hugely informative and much appreciated.
    The Eley subs are the old green box, 40 grain rounds.
    I've tried other ammo through the barrel; however, the Eley 40's always gave me the tightest groups.
    I'm going to see if I can get my hands on a few boxes of SK Rifle Match just to see if they make any difference (thank you for the recommendation 'the pigeon man'.
    As a self-taught and solitary shooter, I've read (and continue to read) about discipline, set-up, stability, trigger control, etc. and put all these components together for whenever I squeeze the trigger, be it shooting for groups, or out in the field hunting rabbits.
    As for some of the questions/comments above...
    1) Yes, the parallax was spot on - checked by moving head side to side and there was no discernible migration between reticle and target.
    2) Yes, the trigger was modded last year to lighten it - no obvious creep - set at 1.7lb pull.
    3) I couldn't tell if the flyer was the last shot - light was fading.
    4) Ammo is from the same batch, so I would expect it to be consistent.
    Will get out again as soon as the wind drops and continue to practice - will post up further groups using the same Eley ammo and perhaps I will also try the CCI 40g subs and Winchester 42g subs, just for the sake of comparison.
    When I receive the SK Rifle Match rounds, I will provide an update also.
    Watch this space!

    Get your sk here if your stuck
    https://www.gunshop.ie/SK-Rimfire-Ammo-c36709384


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