Madeleine McCann

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120662391#Comment_120662391

Ffs did you even watch the video? It confirms (11 minutes in) that she heard a child crying two nights before the disappearance.

This is from her actual statement....

"She also refers to the day of the 1st of May 2007, when she was home alone at approximately 22-30, she heard a child cry, and that due to the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted Daddy? Daddy? The witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below."

Immortal Starlight

Didn’t the McCanns themselves admit Madeleine had been crying?

Musicrules

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120662542#Comment_120662542

The dogs begun their work at the start of August, the McCann's weren't their to witness their searches. By the time the McCann's found out and were going to be questioned on it, they went into panic mode as has been pointed out. Why did their minds go to this evidence could get us in trouble rather than this evidence could unlock the case? The McCann's themselves even put in research to try to discredit the findings. Very strange, I don't think the tabloids forced them to do any of this.

The investigation was incompetent from different police forces, that's why the dog evidence is all we have. There appears to be a wild goose chase going on involving a German peado for the last few years, there have been other suspects previously but nothing on any suspects except the dogs. I think it's clear that a confession will be needed to find out the truth of what happened to Madeleine. Like with the case the expensive lawyers wanted to use to defend the McCann's. The dogs alerted but there was no body, it was thrown out of court. The killer eventually confessed that he did actually kill his wife. Maybe it's true, the dogs don't lie.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120661910#Comment_120661910

You equally must remember what drug detection dogs do, which is get it wrong 60-80% of the time.

Are you aware of 'Clever Hans', the horse that could do arithmetic? Anyone who is ought to be highly suspicious and aware to the possibility that all dogs might be reacting to either overt or subliminal cuing from their handlers, which is why some experts have suggested that the person who trains these dogs should not be the one to handle them in the field.

"Handlers’ beliefs that scent was present potentiated handler identification of detection dog alerts. Human more than dog influences affected alert locations. This confirms that handler beliefs affect outcomes of scent detection dog deployments."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3078300/

And it's not just dogs. Cueing is such a massive problem that it was found that If researchers testing drugs knew which patients were getting the drug being tested vs the placebo, they would inadvertantly cue the patients and the patients would respond more favourably, not because the drug worked, but because they picked up on the researchers behaviours and expectations and the placebo effect was triggered.

This is why drug testing is now done using double-blind trials, so the clinicians involved in the trial don't actually know which patients are getting the drug and which the placebo.

Stating that cadaver dogs 'do' something with the suggestion it's with 100% precision, infalibility and lack of handler bias or cueing is unhelpful and misleading.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120661678#Comment_120661678

13 false alerts. They are not 'findings' actual forensic 'evidence' recovered from the site of an alert would be a 'finding.'

Nothing was found so the alerts were false positives. There is so much overt cueing going on in the videos of those dog searches, they are actually painful to watch.

Musicrules

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120662637#Comment_120662637

Cross contamination is possible so an abductor could have killed her in the apartment where both dogs alerted behind the couch and it spread from there to where other alerts were triggered. How do you know that an abductor didn't kill Madeleine in the apartment?

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120662607#Comment_120662607

They didn't go into 'panic mode' as you keep saying. They were given legal advice not to answer questions in the police interview and were similarly advised to return to the UK immediately when arguido status had been declared. It's strange to talk about panic mode when you consider the duress they had been under since May 3rd. I can imagine that whole four month stretch had been a panic. Again, if Kate's claim is true, the Portuguese police were so sure that the McCanns had committed the act that they were already trying to bargain with her to confess. If it is my position that I'm innocent, I know I'm going to look into the evidence against me and/or have professionals who know their business doing it on my behalf. Apparently, they successfully argued that the sniffer dog alerts were not adequate evidence in and of themselves, so we don't even really have that. We can only construct the most likely set of events.

From the point of view of the McCanns not being in any way responsible aside from lax child watch, I would like to know circumstances by which the cadaver dogs found evidence of a corpse having been present. I’ve just re-educated myself that spaniel Keela was trained in blood detection whilst spaniel Eddie specialised in cadaver detection.

The blood scent that Keela detected from the sofa area could have been from a previous accident, miscarriage, or menstrual leakage, could have been from a long time prior to the McCanns occupying the apartment.

Eddie detected cadaver behind the blue sofa, so we have to conclude that the blood was shed around the time of a death there. He also detected cadaver in the McCann’s wardrobe, which is very sinister, but could have occurred years before the McCanns were around.

Now it gets very concerning that Keela smelled blood from the car that the local police placed in the underground car park, as opposed to other cars they placed there. It was the same car the McCanns had hired. She also detected blood on sone of Kate’s clothes. Eddie detected cadaverine from Madeleine’s comforter Cuddle Cat.

Now that’s a lot of “evidence”. Apparently the dogs were unable to detect scents in other apartments or cars, which acted as controls to enhance the “evidence”.

Taking the McCanns as innocent what does all that tell us?

That cadaver dogs are unreliable for detection, maybe owner’s prejudice convincing them to signal.

OR

That somebody else, unknown to the McCanns, placed the scents at all these locations after Madeleine’s disappearance. Eg a corrupt police officer who wanted a conclusion for his own credentials or/and was acting on his own prejudice, OR an assistant of the criminal who abducted her, to incriminate parents and take the ficus off the real culprit. OR indeed that a corrupt policeman was acting in favour of the criminal.

OR

It was pure coincidence that a previous death, maybe accidental or illness related, had taken place in the apartment at sone stage in the past and that a bloodstained body happened also to be in the McCanns’ hired car.

Take your choice of the above conclusions or maybe identify another possibility I haven’t considered. 🧐

https://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/how-sniffer-dogs-signalled-scent-14141404

Musicrules

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120662693#Comment_120662693

They did go into panic mode. They took themselves to the airport to try to get out of Portugal as fast as possible. They rescheduled a flight, they hired very expensive lawyers immediately to look into finding a way to refute the dog findings. The lawyers came back with the American case a few days later. This was all in the space of 5 days and the evidence found mightn't even had anything to do with the McCann's. In their panic they never once thought of that. How did they know Madeleine wasn't killed by an intruder in the apartment?

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120662664#Comment_120662664

Not even remotely possible. The time it takes for a dead body to produce cadaverine or putrescine is longer than the time available. Death that involved the spilling of blood would be the only thing that that could have been reliably detected, but there was no blood found.

Also if this nonsense were the case, you then have to explain how said murderer/abductor managed to bring the body back many weeks later when the McCann's hired the car, unlock and enter the car, and then use the decayed and rotted corpse to leave scent traces but without leaving behind any leaking bodily fluids or tissues and decomposition products falling off it.

Madeline almost certainly did not die in the apartment and her body was never in the car.

If you think dogs are so wonderful and infallible, would you like to explain why you think the multiple Portuguese SAR dogs brought in within about 24 hours - not months later - failed to find anything?

Lots of dogs were used on day two and subsequent days. PDL was absolutely inundated with a myriad of highly trained SAR and other spcialityof dogs in the days after Maddie dissappeared. Eddie and Keela get all the attention because like aliens, people want to believe. They even took dogs into apartments, and not just the McCanns. I seem to recall one dog seemed to find a trail that lead to a door, but nothing came of it.

Musicrules

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120662789#Comment_120662789

It is possible, Martin Grimes was asked questions that was linked to a few pages back:

How long does a cadaver have to be in contact with a surface or an object for the odour to be detected?

Cross-contamination is immediate.

With respect to the cadaver odour on Kate's clothes, could it be undoubtedly affirmed that those clothes had been in contact with a cadaver?

OR

Could the alert have been given because the clothes had been in contact with other items of clothing, surfaces or objects that could previously have touched a cadaver, thereby allowing the odour to be transferred?

There is always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral. EVRD does not make a distinction; he responds with a certain behaviour for which he was trained when he recognizes an odour. He does not identify the reasons for the presence of the odour nor does he identify suspects. Forensic confirmation and specialized investigation methods will determine the reasons and the suspicions. In order to undoubtedly affirm there must be a confirmation of the alert signals made by the dog.

This would explain how there were alerts in the rental car etc. What are your qualifications in this area? I think it's more likely that you are talking nonsense. Especially when you start talking about search dogs instead of specially trained cadaver dogs.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120662860#Comment_120662860

Perhaps you'd like to quote Grimes' academic qualifications?

I personally wouldn't trust him to give me the time of day.

"How long does a body have to be dead for a cadaver dog to smell it?

Research would suggest that a cadaver dog can detect a body that has been dead for as little as 24 hours. This is due to the fact that cadaver dogs are trained to detect for the scent of a decomposing body.

The human decomposition process begins to start between 1 and 3 days.

https://doggysaurus.com/how-soon-after-death-cadaver-dog-detect/

There's cadaverine and putresceine in human saliva.

Musicrules

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120662970#Comment_120662970

You wouldn't trust a man with decades experience as a police officer and dog trainer, a man hired by the FBI but you want us to trust you with no qualifications or history in this field who does a bit of googling?

You were already shown up earlier on this page for not reading a link you provided fully. You're probably better off dropping out at this stage.

https://digitalcommons.humboldt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1255&context=etd

This paper examined the reliability of Human Remains Detection dogs in quite some detail.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120663017#Comment_120663017

"Being a GP doesn't mean your responsible."

Ha, ha.

I don't trust someone who earns his living from having his two dogs give positve indications. He's almost literally paid by the bark. In three different cases those dogs have given false positive responses. In one the supposedly dead person was found alive and in the other two, there was nothing to link the responses to a proven death; so no, I am not going to stop shredding your nosense.

happyoutscan

So the McCann's are guilty - or look bad - because they hired expensive attorney's?

Sometimes I wish the internet wasn't invented.

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120663674#Comment_120663674

Police in a rush to convict and close a case have been known to coerce suspects, ask leading questions and offer bargains in return for confessions. It's surprising the lead investigator on the Portuguese end of things, Gonçalo Amaral, isn't more talked about here because he appears to be what you'd call 'a piece of work', and eventually resigned from his post in some disgrace. I don't know if the McCanns knew how bad he was at the time of the investigation, but their bringing in legal counsel was an even more correct decision in hindsight, although I believe it's always the correct decision when you're a suspect or arguido, which appears to be somewhere between the common law definition of suspect and person of interest.

Amaral was so convinced that the McCanns did it that he would later go on to write a book alleging this, called 'The Truth of the Lie'. It was the subject of a libel battle between himself and the McCanns for a good number of years, trading victories and launching appeals , where I think Amaral eventually won out because the Portuguese Supreme Court upheld his right to say what he likes and later that the McCanns had not been ruled innocent in Portugal due to the archiving of the case but that there had not been enough evidence found against them to carry any prosecution forward.

Incidentally, later in the year we saw a very good example of someone being fitted up for a crime that police were rushing to convict on: Amanda Knox. Yes, always lawyer the fúck up.

happyoutscan

The McCanns - outside of an awful parenting decision - were not involved in her death, disappearance or cover-up.

To think so at this stage I find absolutely mind-boggling.

chooseusername

Well it looks like the search of the reservoir has thrown up " a relevant clue";

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/what-police-found-in-madeleine-mccann-reservoir-search-in-portugal/a420799451.html

Also;

" photographs belonging to 43 year-old Brueckner were also said to have revealed clues."

nc6000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120662585#Comment_120662585

Yes, I've definitely seen an interview where they speak about this and go over what Madeleine said to them about the previous night, she asked why they didn't come when she was crying and calling them.

Immortal Starlight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120665632#Comment_120665632

I think that was supposed to be the night before she went missing. I wonder if the twins were awake and crying too but were too young to say. It’s completely crazy.

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664748#Comment_120664748

That's what's criticism of the McCann parents was always leading to. People got bored with simply calling them bad parents and had to get even juicier with it. Scary mob mentality.

Six hours to kill and hide their daughter and then play it off as if nothing happened. I'm surprised there isn't a theory that they're actually Fred and Rose West, with that kind of thing floating about.

Robert Nairac

What happened to Gerry McCann's tennis bag? Why would he dispose of a fridge from the rented flat? The Portuguese police seem to believe the tennis bag is relevant.

reclose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120667884#Comment_120667884

It’s different posters.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120668076#Comment_120668076

The Portuguese police were a disgrace throughout, why anyone takes their word on anything is a greater mystery than the actual disappearance.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664026#Comment_120664026

They knew how bad he was because he was daily leaking bits from Kate's diary to the press! What absolutely boggles my mind with incomprehension is how the Portuguese national police authorities just sat quietly by whiie he did it.

Can you imagine the Guards seizing a foreign tourists diary in a prominent case and then bits of the diary appearing in the Daily Mail, almost every day - and people thinking that was normal, let alone nothing being done about it and letting it go on for weeks?

I guess in a country where they don't view rape as a crime, one shouldn't be surprised.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664764#Comment_120664764

Several items were removed from the site, which may or may not be of relevance to the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance. They include a bra strap, pieces of clothing and plastic items.

Nothing of any releveance was found, guaranteed.

'So Hans, You believe you have a new lead and want to take a team to the Algarve to conduct searches?'

'Yes Sir'

'And I suppose these searches can only be done at the height of summer?

'Well, yes sir, that would be the optimum time.'

'Would there happen to be any beaches near this place you wish to search, Hans?'

'I beleive that is possible Sir.'

'I'd imagine you would be prepared to widen the search area to establish if this is the case?'

'Yes Sir!... I mean only if it seems necessary Sir.

And if you think I'm joking...

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/brit-cops-rush-portugal-madeleine-30048303

The last time the UK polce went to Portugal to investigate in 2014, it was in May.

Pure coincidence of course.

LambshankRedemption

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120663674#Comment_120663674

Re Internet, yes I agree. In the old days you had to have the wherewithall to write a letter, buy a stamp and go post it. Now you just need a broadband subscription to spout any old nonsense..

reclose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120668380#Comment_120668380

For context, can you give the dates of all the other times they visited too?

LambshankRedemption

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120668380#Comment_120668380

It happens here too. Just this past week a delegation of gardai and civil servants came back from Portugal seeing how injection centres work there.

To be honest, I dont know how they work, but it surely doesnt need a delegation at summertime to find out?