Pupils addressing teachers and principals by first name

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!

Why is it that teachers in 2020 still insist on being addresses and Mr. This or Ms. That? When growing up in the 90's, it was only the elderly in my estate and surroundings that would have been afforded such an honorific, other local middle aged adults were content being addressed by first name and would introduce themselves as such, even the adult "minders" who would do yard duty in national school or supervise free classes in secondary were like this.

I've never met or come across a teacher who let pupils address them by first name. I left school in 2008 btw. I don't know if this has changed yet. if you say that it is because of "respect for an adult", then by that logic, 18 and 19 year old Leaving Certificate pupils should be addressed as Mr or Ms.

I know in Germany when a pupil reaches 16, the teacher stops addressing them as "du" and begins addressing them as "Sie", similarly, in France, "tu" becomes "vous" at age 16.

What also strikes me as odd is that if a teacher is addressing a pupil and speaking about the janitor and another teacher, they'll often refer to the janitor as Tom and the teacher and Mr. Smith in the same breath.

Are the teachers and principals deserving of more respect that the janitor or the secretary?

Is there a department of education rule laid down which prohibits teachers from allowing pupils to address them by first name?

Poor Uncle Tom

I have very very little respect for teachers anymore.

Beechwoodspark

I have taught my kids to always refer to the teacher by sir or miss

Basic manners really

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

I have taught my kids to always refer to the teacher by sir or miss

Basic manners

Why ? Are other adults not deserving of this?

What changes between an 18 y/o doing the LC and a 19 y/o in his or her first year of college addressing the lecturer by first name?

Beechwoodspark

for me it’s to instill respect for authority

Beechwoodspark

2 of my boys have said that their gaa coach wants to be known by his first name, that’s fine with me once made know.

Gatling

The school I work in were all on first name terms ,

I think it works better than Mr Ms or miss or sir

StackSteevens

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

Why is it that teachers in 2020 still insist on being addresses and Mr. This or Ms. That?

They don't.

Next question?

Abel Ruiz

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

I have very very little respect for teachers anymore.

Well don't leave us in the lurch uncle Tom.
Please let us know why they are such a shower of basstards and they lost your respect!!!!!!

What did they do to upset you?

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

2 of my boys have said that their gaa coach wants to be known by his first name, that’s fine with me once made know.

So should a Garda be address as Garda Jones or John?

What about a college lecturer?

What about an 18 y/o insisting to me addressed as Ms Murphy instead of Jane ?

Beechwoodspark

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

So should a Garda be address as Garda Jones or John?

What about a college lecturer?

What about an 18 y/o insisting to me addressed as Ms Murphy instead of Jane ?

For children ie under 18s it’s no harm for them to have a healthy respect for their teachers. Nothing excessive.

If a teacher said “call me Mary” id be fine with that but most teachers like that layer of authority/formality and I’m happy to support that.

Better Than Christ

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

for me it’s to instill respect for authority

If I ever have kids, I'll be teaching them to respect people regardless of, and sometimes in spite of, their 'authority'.

Beechwoodspark

Better Than Christ wrote: »

If I ever have kids, I'll be teaching them to respect people regardless of, and sometimes in spite of, their 'authority'.

I agree with you, don’t take me up wrong

Ficheall

I had a lecturer that responded to a "Hi Firstname" email from a student asking to be addressed as "Dr Surname". Obviously an ass.



And at least "Dr" means you don't have to worry about assuming anyone's gender in these spectacularly woke times.

Church on Tuesday

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

I have taught my kids to always refer to the teacher by sir or miss

Basic manners really

This.

It's about setting standards. Things have to be formal in the classroom and a certain distance has to be maintained.

For me, once you get to LC year then things can become a little less formal, because now you are dealing with young adults about to embark on the real world, I also feel there should be no uniform for final year students.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

For children ie under 18s it’s no harm for them to have a healthy respect for their teachers. Nothing excessive.

If a teacher said “call me Mary” id be fine with that but most teachers like that layer of authority/formality and I’m happy to support that.

What if an 18 year old pupil wanted the secondary teacher to address them as Mr or Ms? Would you support that? They're an adult after all.

I addressed a teacher by his surname once without the saintly title and was pegged out of the classroom. After that I brought the kneeling mat, one must be deferential at all times.

Beechwoodspark

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

What if an 18 year old pupil wanted the secondary teacher to address them as Mr or Ms? Would you support that? They're an adult after all.

Just so I understand

You are asking if the student told the teacher they wanted to be referred to as Mr or Ms?

Central Services

To the modern wimp nobody can be above you. That would be too
tough to deal with. You can't ever defer to anyone. Or defer to a greater good.
The community, society. No, the individual is above all. Their feelings. How they
want to identify. What offends them. Everybody and everything must be nice
to you.

Gibbons The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire noted the christianising of the Romans when they adapted similar values(pacifying, individualism, indulgent, self-centered) to the contemporary woke culture and destroying their civilisation.

kowloon

When I was in school teachers were sir and you stood up when they entered the room.

Ficheall wrote: »

I had a lecturer that responded to a "Hi Firstname" email from a student asking to be addressed as "Dr Surname". Obviously an ass.

I always referred to lecturers by title as a matter of manners, but if they ever insisted on it I would internally lose respect for them. Having worked or studied at a few places I can only think of one person who was that into their title and he was a tool in other ways too.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Just so I understand

You are asking if the student told the teacher they wanted to be referred to as Mr or Ms?

Yes. An 18 year old is an adult.

Why is a teacher afforded more respect than any other adult?

The janitor is likely older than the teacher and even teachers refer to them as first name when talking about them to another pupil.

Poor Uncle Tom

Abel Ruiz wrote: »

Well don't leave us in the lurch uncle Tom.
Please let us know why they are such a shower of basstards and they lost your respect!!!!!!

What did they do to upset you?

They're not a shower of anything, and they haven't upset me.

Please have another read,

AndrewJRenko

All Educate Together schools work on a first-name basis - seems to work fine as far as I can see.

Beechwoodspark

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

Yes. An 18 year old is an adult.

Why is a teacher afforded more respect than any other adult?

The janitor is likely older than the teacher and even teachers refer to them as first name when talking about them to another pupil.

IF the 18 year old insists on it then fine

The reason I support it is the teacher is the figure of authority in a class room

cj maxx

It's a thing taught to children in primary school to differentiate how they talk and behave with teachers and around other adults. It's carried on for secondary school for the same reasons.
By college time where everyone are adults it's generally first names

SusieBlue

Loveinapril wrote: »

I went to a Gaelscoil and we addressed the teachers by their first names, I couldn't tell you any of their surnames.

Me too. First name or ‘múinteoir’ was standard. We weren’t told their surnames either so couldn’t use them even if they wanted to.
Full names in Irish would be way too much of a mouthful for very small kids anyway.

Vestiapx

In secondary school we were all referred to by our surnames; "Murphy tell me what you are talking to O'Donnell about!"

And when in trouble it was " Mr Murphy I think you should take a detention slip."

freshpopcorn

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

All Educate Together schools work on a first-name basis - seems to work fine as far as I can see.

I was going to post this also.
A lot of the teachers/principals I know hate being called Sir, Mrs, etc and they'd love to change it but it's just the way schools are set up.
Those who like it love having authority of the kids in my experience. They'd bring back the cane if they could.

KungPao

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

Yes. An 18 year old is an adult.

Why is a teacher afforded more respect than any other adult?

The janitor is likely older than the teacher and even teachers refer to them as first name when talking about them to another pupil.

The janitor? Did you go to Bayside High?

It’s a caretaker.

freshpopcorn

I actually know some teachers and they love being called Mrs however if a kid called the SNA Mrs. They'd be quickly reminded to call them bu their first name.

Vestiapx

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I actually know some teachers and they love being called Mrs however if a kid called the SNA Mrs. They'd be quickly reminded to call them bu their first name.

That makes no sense. Primary or secondary ?

freshpopcorn

Vestiapx wrote: »

That makes no sense. Primary or secondary ?

Primary. I know a few teachers who really don't like the SNA's to be honest and see them as beneath them.
I've a few family members teachers and they've all encountered teachers like them.

khalessi

I have worked in a mumber of jobs where I have been referred to by my surname by colleagues, such as Nurse O Donoghue in front of patients despite them knowing my first name and me introducing myself to patients by first name.

I teach now and always introduce myself to the children as Jane O Donoghue. At one time the sign on my door gave my first name and surname. The children in class mostly call me teacher, a couple would call me Jane to see my reaction and when that happened the rest of the class would hold their breath. My reaction was to tell them I didnt mind as long as they are polite, so some of them would call me Jane in class and Ms. O' Donoghue outside class.

I also get called Miss, occasionally muinteoir, and sometimes Mammy or Mum by accident which alway provides a laugh. Their parents mostly call me Ms. O' Donoghue despite me only ever introducing myself as Jane. I do tell the kids in their final year if they meet me outside school I am Jane not Ms. O' Donoghue. This is not an attempt to be cool but practical as I have often ended up with 15 children from my school holidaying in the same area and I am not spending my holidays or theirs being called Ms. O Donoghue when they meet me, which is a lot as they tend to gravitate towards where I stay to see what teachers do in the natural habitat lol.

I generally find that the kids who are polite or respectful will be so no matter what name they address me by, the ones that aren't will be rude and disrespectful no matter what name they address me by.

I still address my primary teacher as Ms. Blue when I meet her despite being an adult a long time. As a child I referred to every adult I met by their surname including my parents friends as it was polite.

alta stare

KungPao wrote: »

The janitor? Did you go to Bayside High?

It’s a caretaker.

Americanisms are taking over how we speak. My 6 year old now says the word stupid.....as stoopid. She gets corrected on it but it is just another sign of the YouTube generation. I imagine our grandkids will speak in an American twang.....God help us.

the beer revolu

alta stare wrote: »

Americanisms are taking over how we speak. My 6 year old now says the word stupid.....as stoopid. She gets corrected on it but it is just another sign of the YouTube generation. I imagine our grandkids will speak in an American twang.....God help us.

Perhaps you should start a thread on this issue. We haven't had one this week, yet.

Central Services

Central Services wrote: »

To the modern wimp nobody can be above you. That would be too
tough to deal with. You can't ever defer to anyone. Or defer to a greater good.
The community, society. No, the individual is above all. Their feelings. How they
want to identify. What offends them. Everybody and everything must be nice
to you.

Gibbons The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire noted the christianising of the Romans when they adapted similar values(pacifying, individualism, indulgent, self-centered) to the contemporary woke culture and destroying their civilisation.

Good. It's time the whole thing was burned down and freshened up.

alta stare

the beer revolu wrote: »

Perhaps you should start a thread on this issue. We haven't had one this week, yet.

No i am ok thanks. It was just a flying visit.

One eyed Jack

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

Why is it that teachers in 2020 still insist on being addresses and Mr. This or Ms. That? When growing up in the 90's, it was only the elderly in my estate and surroundings that would have been afforded such an honorific, other local middle aged adults were content being addressed by first name and would introduce themselves as such, even the adult "minders" who would do yard duty in national school or supervise free classes in secondary were like this.

I've never met or come across a teacher who let pupils address them by first name. I left school in 2008 btw. I don't know if this has changed yet. if you say that it is because of "respect for an adult", then by that logic, 18 and 19 year old Leaving Certificate pupils should be addressed as Mr or Ms.

I know in Germany when a pupil reaches 16, the teacher stops addressing them as "du" and begins addressing them as "Sie", similarly, in France, "tu" becomes "vous" at age 16.

What also strikes me as odd is that if a teacher is addressing a pupil and speaking about the janitor and another teacher, they'll often refer to the janitor as Tom and the teacher and Mr. Smith in the same breath.

Are the teachers and principals deserving of more respect that the janitor or the secretary?

Is there a department of education rule laid down which prohibits teachers from allowing pupils to address them by first name?

It’s formal recognition of a person in authority.

You left school in 2008 and you don’t know if it’s changed, but you’re asking the question based upon an assumption that it’s a practice which is insisted upon in 2020?

Also the use of tu and vous in the France isn’t based upon age, but rather is similar recognition of authority as used in English speaking countries and is the difference between formal and informal address.

freshpopcorn

At college I had a lecturer called James Black for examples.
On Monday he’s say my name is James and on Tuesday he’d say My name is Mr Black if somebody addressed him by his first name.

1 sheep2

Deleted User wrote: »

I addressed a teacher by his surname once without the saintly title and was pegged out of the classroom. After that I brought the kneeling mat, one must be deferential at all times.

Are you serious? You can't see that addressing someone by their surname alone is decidedly rude?

byhookorbycrook

I’m in a Gaelscoil , we are all addressed by our first names , teachers , SNAs, Secretary etc. Respect is earned , it’s not given by a title .

Mrsmum

1 sheep2 wrote: »

Are you serious? You can't see that addressing someone by their surname alone is decidedly rude?

Can't be that rude (or perhaps purposefully rude) because it is not unusual for teachers to call their pupils, especially boys, by their surnames. Also for a girl being addressed as Miss Surname, was not, in my day, a sign of respect. It was usually said in a derisory tone and meant you were in trouble.

AndrewJRenko

Deleted User wrote: »

I addressed a teacher by his surname once without the saintly title and was pegged out of the classroom. After that I brought the kneeling mat, one must be deferential at all times.

There's a few different definitions of pegging.

TheValeyard

I went to a CBS in the 80s and it was all Sir and Miss. Many of the teachers called the pupils "Mr. X" too, or by their surnames. The idea was we were supposed to be gentlemen, who mutually respected each other. For the most part it worked well.

My kids went to a Gaelscoil and it was all first name basis, but prefixed my Muniteoir.

Tordelback

My kids go to Educate Togethers, a primary and a secondary, and I wouldn't even recognise their teachers' last names if I heard them. Talking to a few of the teachers at a pre-start meeting for the then-new secondary, they were quite nervous about the prospect, but talking to them again at mid-term, those concerns were gone. Authority or respect is independent of conventions of formality.

(BTW, I went to UCD in the late '80s and called all my lecturers by their first names from Day 1, with the exception of a few close-to-retirement professors (two of whom still wore gowns when teaching, so you get the picture). When I was lecturing in the '90s myself, I went by my first name too).

Airyfairy12

It's not up to the teachers, its normally the direction of the school policy. If the school policy requires pupils to call teachers by their second name and a teacher comes in and tells the kids to call them by their first name, they would be in breach of the school policy, they'd single themselves out and teachers and pupils would treat them differently. Some schools have a first name basis policy, similarily imagine if a teacher came in and insisted they be called by their second name, it would go against the school and cause problems for the teacher.
I dont think teachers really care that much one way or the other what their students call them.

Airyfairy12

A few posts here talking about whether or not it is showing respect for the person or the title. I always had the feeling it was neither. That it was a deference/respect shown to the teacher-pupil relationship.

It is similar when I study martial arts. Completely on a first name basis with all my "teachers" down the pub or out on the street. The moment we are teacher and pupil however proper titles are observed closely. Even if my teacher is half my age - hell even if it was a child - I would still do so.

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

I dont think teachers really care that much one way or the other what their students call them.

My Primary School Teacher in Clontarf - who was also a footballer though I doubt that's relevant other than as a dog whistle to the other people who might also have had him as a teacher - used to go mental if one of us forgot not to call him "sir". It seemed to seriously and extremely piss him off to be called that. We forgot often because we had to call every other male teacher - including the head master - as sir.

I was too young at the time to question why this might be. But looking back at how emotional his reaction was to it - there was clearly something going on deeper there.

If I recall correctly - he was named with the same name as his father. Him Junior and the father Senior. So I wonder now if it was connected to that in some way. But that is just me grasping at guesses.

dotsman

KungPao wrote: »

The janitor? Did you go to Bayside High?

It’s a caretaker.

The caretaker? Did you go to Ballygobackwards?

It was janitor in my primary school back in the 80's.

Yeah - I would also add to that - that some people find it important to maintain the professional relationship. For all kinds of reasons. Including not being seen to be trying to groom a relationship with ones students or patients or anything else. Especially in the #MeToo era.

The Lecturer being called "obviously an ass" for insisting on his proper title being used for example. Maybe he is an ass. We don't know that guy. But I do not think that is "obvious" just because he insisted on a title.

It may be that he feels that a certain relationship must be maintained between teacher and student - and one way to achieve that is to keep it formal and maintain certain boundaries.

Or the guy might just be an ass We just don't know.

Ferris_Bueller

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I’m in a Gaelscoil , we are all addressed by our first names , teachers , SNAs, Secretary etc. Respect is earned , it’s not given by a title .

I went to a Gaelscoil primary and secondary and we called our teachers by their first names the whole way through. I don't think I have ever in my life referred to someone as 'miss' or 'sir' and I could never understand why it was done in other schools.