Are we going to talk about our kids? [ADMIN WARNING IN POST #1]

Mousewar

Forgive my ignorance but what other legal changes and declarations can minors make? Are there many? If not, is this a unique power they are being granted? And if so, why are they deemed fit to make this decision and not countless others?

suicide_circus

Tell me how wrote: »

What evidence is there that someone can identify as a 14 year old and play on that age group soccer team?

but is a 45 year old who is absolutely convinced they are a 14 year old actually a 14 year old?

El_Duderino 09

suicide_circus wrote: »

but is a 45 year old who is absolutely convinced they are a 14 year old actually a 14 year old?

This is about the right level of question for some people. You do your side no credit by pretending this is what the issue is about.

suicide_circus

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

This is about the right level of question for some people. You do your side no credit by pretending this is what the issue is about.

the issue is about reality.

Ten of Swords

Article in the op provides minimal detail, this gives a little more substance
https://irishlegal.com/article/gender-recognition-laws-could-be-extended-to-children-and-non-binary-people

A 15-page policy paper produced by Fine Gael recommends a number of reforms to the Gender Recognition Act 2015, including a reduction in the minimum age to apply for a gender recognition certificate from 18 to 16, the Irish Independent reports...

...It also recommends that under-16s should be allowed to seek a gender recognition certificate through another mechanism where they have parental consent.

Madeleine Birchfield

I can identify as a Roman (as in Roman Republic Roman) but legally I am not a Roman and the rest of society does not identify me as a Roman.

Mellor

Mousewar wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance but what other legal changes and declarations can minors make? Are there many? If not, is this a unique power they are being granted? And if so, why are they deemed fit to make this decision and not countless others?

Change their name.
Change their legal address.
Change their beneficiaries.
Change their citizenship

In addition to gender, they are about all the legal statuses I can think of.
Excluding date of birth for obvious reasons.

suicide_circus

Mellor wrote: »

Change their name.
Change their legal address.
Change their beneficiaries.
Change their citizenship

In addition to gender, they are about all the legal statuses I can think of.
Excluding date of birth for obvious reasons.

what are those obvious reasons?

Madeleine Birchfield

The whole concept of legal gender is rubbish as gender is just sex stereotypes, they should be tracking biological sex in the first place.

El_Duderino 09

suicide_circus wrote: »

the issue is about reality.

So why are you asking questions which aren't based in reality?

If it really was a serious issue then you wouldn't have resorted to this type of argument. If you had good arguments, you'd probably stick to good arguments.

El_Duderino 09

Madeleine Birchfield wrote: »

I can identify as a Roman (as in Roman Republic Roman) but legally I am not a Roman and the rest of society does not identify me as a Roman.

Yeah. And if gay marriage is allowed then we'll all have to marry a dog or a chair.

Just to confirm, we're posting spurious arguments that aren't remotely related to the reality, right?

osarusan

If the OP or anybody else could post up the proposed law that will allow somebody who is not 14 to legally identify as 14, that would be helpful.

suicide_circus

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So why are you asking questions which aren't based in reality?

If it really was a serious issue then you wouldn't have resorted to this type of argument. If you had good arguments, you'd probably stick to good arguments.

can we not discuss an issue with the aid of hypotheticals? seems like a fairly normal part of debating to me.

i'm not concerned with the moral aspect. child protection concerns or female only spaces, while relevant, are not the crux of the matter.

is it true that someone born with xy chromosomes and everything that goes with it, who feels like a woman is in fact a woman and in fact, always was?

Reality is a thing and we need to think very carefully before replacing it.

Mellor

suicide_circus wrote: »

what are those obvious reasons?

Because it's a record of something that happened, and time travel isn't possible.
You really needed that explained.


I suppose if we're being pedantic, a legal DoB could be changed if it's was recorded incorrecty.

El_Duderino 09

suicide_circus wrote: »

can we not discuss an issue with the aid of hypotheticals? seems like a fairly normal part of debating to me.

i'm not concerned with the moral aspect. child protection concerns or female only spaces, while relevant, are not the crux of the matter.

is it true that someone born with xy chromosomes and everything that goes with it, who feels like a woman is in fact a woman and in fact, always was?

Reality is a thing and we need to think very carefully before replacing it.

Ah yeah but hypotheticals about a 45 year old man identify as a 14 year old, really don't help the issue.

We already have analogies for that scenario and we have solved them neatly enough. There are adults with the mental age of children and we don't let them go in children's sports teams as children.

Transgenderism is a fascinating condition. I get that the people opposed to it want to frame the discussion in terms of deviants and paedophile, but it's not about any of that.

I don't get what it's like to be transgender. I just presume it's a genuine issue and should be dealt with with the normal amount of dignity (like for example not starting the discussion by painting them as likely paedos).

Let's just do the treatment and do normal child safeguarding. And use the spare time you'll save by not trying to tie transgenderism to a 45 year old man identifying as a teenage girl, to untwist your knickers and be serious about the issue.

optogirl

Hunky Monster wrote: »

I identify as a 14 year old girl. Legally I can play on your daughters soccer team, use her changing room, shower with her.

Do you care now?

:rolleyes:

suicide_circus

Mellor wrote: »

Because it's a record of something that happened

and the recording of male/female is what?

El_Duderino 09

suicide_circus wrote: »

and the recording of male/female is what?

A mix of biology and is in rare cases, subject to conditions, like transgenderism. That's what we're talking about.

Are you pretending not to get the discussion or do you genuinely not get it? Serious question.

Madeleine Birchfield

suicide_circus wrote: »

and the recording of male/female is what?

Biological sex. Which is why I find the concept of "legal gender" to be utter rubbish because gender is just social sex stereotypes, and should be replaced with "legal biological sex" which is immutable.

Mellor

suicide_circus wrote: »

and the recording of male/female is what?

The recording of somebody's current gender. There no revision to history. It's only changed from that point onwards.

The same way that's a birth cert records somebody name at birth. But a deed poll can change that name from that point onwards. You don't need a time machine to change your name.

suicide_circus

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ah yeah but hypotheticals about a 45 year old man identify as a 14 year old, really don't help the issue.

We already have analogies for that scenario and we have solved them neatly enough. There are adults with the mental age of children and we don't let them go in children's sports teams as children.

Transgenderism is a fascinating condition. I get that the people opposed to it want to frame the discussion in terms of deviants and paedophile, but it's not about any of that.

I don't get what it's like to be transgender. I just presume it's a genuine issue and should be dealt with with the normal amount of dignity (like for example not starting the discussion by painting them as likely paedos).

Let's just do the treatment and do normal child safeguarding. And use the spare time you'll save by not trying to tie transgenderism to a 45 year old man identifying as a teenage girl, to untwist your knickers and be serious about the issue.

ok forget the hypotheticals. when i referred to 45/14 year old i wasnt hinting at paedo activity btw. i dont get what its like to be transgender either and i feel for those who go have to cope with it or any such distressing condition.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

A mix of biology and is in rare cases, subject to conditions, like transgenderism. That's what we're talking about.

Are you pretending not to get the discussion or do you genuinely not get it? Serious question.

I dont think that believing you are X makes you X. It's like a misreading of the maxim "I think therefore I am". A person having certain genetic markers producing certain feelings doesn't over ride the biological reality of what happened when they were conceived. We can all sign up to going along with a legal fiction if thats the will of society but i'm not there yet.

blanch152

https://www.medicalprotection.org/ireland/booklets/consent-to-medical-treatment-in-ireland


"Young people of 16 or over can consent to treatment on their own behalf but it is not yet clear if they can refuse treatment if they are under 18.
Consent for treatment of a child under the age of 16 should usually be sought from the child’s parent/guardian, but there may be circumstances in which the consent of a mature minor on his/her own is sufficient."

This is the crux of the issue for me. If a person aged 15 is unable to consent to having a wisdom tooth removed, then how can they consent to changing gender?

Either they are mature enough for such decisions or they aren't?

The same applies in other areas such as marriage, sexual consent etc. Maturity equals ability to make decisions and if you are mature enough for one decision, why not another?

In saying all that, I am not arguing for or against the idea in the OP, just pointing out the need for consistency in applying judgement to a child/adult's ability to maturely make a far-reaching decision.

El_Duderino 09

suicide_circus wrote: »

I dont think that believing you are X makes you X. It's like a misreading of the maxim "I think therefore I am". A person having certain genetic markers producing certain feelings doesn't over ride the biological reality of what happened when they were conceived. We can all sign up to going along with a legal fiction if thats the will of society but i'm not there yet.

Depends on whether you have condition like transgenderism. It might be handy to only want to see the word in black and white, but it's not terribly useful.

suicide_circus

we'll have to agree to disagree

Mellor

blanch152 wrote: »

This is the crux of the issue for me. If a person aged 15 is unable to consent to having a wisdom tooth removed, then how can they consent to changing gender?

Either they are mature enough for such decisions or they aren't?

They are not mature enough to make those decisions on their own.
But they aren’t changing gender on their own.
They need parental consent, a court order, and two medical opinions also. As a 16 year old currently does.

Did you actually think this was about kids changing it on their own?

Gruffalux

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Transgenderism is a fascinating condition.

Let's just do the treatment and do normal child safeguarding.

By the way this "treatment" of the "condition" as you call it is experimental. It has devastating effects on the human body up to and including sterility, impotency, increased cardiovascular and cancer risks. By definition that contravenes child safe guarding. The genitalia of male and female children are shriveled by the treatments and remain pre pubescent. Any further treatment is prone to extreme side effects and complications. Read about people who have suffered as a result of the "treatments" for this "condition". It is barbaric. Better by far to live with bodily health and organ integrity expressing gender how one wishes.

El_Duderino 09

Gruffalox wrote: »

By the way this "treatment" of the "condition" as you call it is experimental. It has devastating effects on the human body up to and including sterility, impotency, increased cardiovascular and cancer risks. By definition that contravenes child safe guarding. The genitalia of male and female children are shriveled by the treatments and remain pre pubescent. Any further treatment is prone to extreme side effects and complications. Read about people who have suffered as a result of the "treatments" for this "condition". It is barbaric. Better by far to live with bodily health and organ integrity expressing gender how one wishes

That's not a decision for you to make on behalf of other people. I would hate those side effects for myself. I just presume that if someone else wants to undergo the procedure then the condition they're experiencing must be unimaginably bad.

Hopefully the treatments coupled with the counselling will improve as time goes on and those dreadful side effects are diminished

Gruffalux

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That's not a decision for you to make on behalf of other people. I would hate those side effects for myself. I just presume that if someone else wants to undergo the procedure then the condition they're experiencing must be unimaginably bad.

Hopefully the treatments coupled with the counselling will improve as time goes on and those dreadful side effects are diminished

And in the meantime ...collateral damage. People have opinions on the bodily health and integrity of other people all the time eg FGM, circumcision, abortion, surrogate baby farming, electro shock therapy, routine caesarians. I could go on. People have opinions on such things in civilised societies. The laissez faire attitudes you and others seem to espouse re transgender treatments especially of children are a peculiar political intersection of extreme left wing progressivism and right wing libertarianism.

El_Duderino 09

Gruffalox wrote: »

And in the meantime ...collateral damage. People have opinions on the bodily health and integrity of other people all the time eg FGM, circumcision, abortion, surrogate baby farming, electro shock therapy, routine caesarians. I could go on. People have opinions on such things in civilised societies. The laissez faire attitudes you and others seem to espouse re transgender treatments especially of children are a peculiar political intersection of extreme left wing progressivism and right wing libertarianism.

Yeah you could go on but it wouldn't turn it into a good argument.

osarusan

osarusan wrote: »

If the OP or anybody else could post up the proposed law that will allow somebody who is not 14 to legally identify as 14, that would be helpful.

Anybody at all?