Ahmaud Arbery

Kidchameleon

This is a very interesting case in the US. Ahmaud Arbery, 25 died from gunshot wounds obtained during a citizens arrest attempt by Gregory and Travis McMichaels on the 23rd of February 2020.

The media version of events:

Ahmaud Arbery was jogging peacefully down a Georgia neighborhood when he was pounced upon by two white supremacists. They stalked him and murdered him for being black.

What the media are not talking about:

Arbery was on probation for burglary and weapons charges. He was seen and filmed at a property in the neighborhood on multiple occasions since October 2019, sometimes during the night. Things had gone missing from the property including 2,500 Dollars worth of fishing gear, this led the owner to install security cameras and contact the police. The police then asked the owner to report any more issues to local man and former law enforcement officer Gregory McMichaels (who had previously investigated Arbery on the burglary charges). Arbery's criminal past involved trying to smuggle a loaded pistol into a college basketball game & burglary of a store where he was caught with a stolen television.

This website has the raw footage of the fatal indecent (warning, graphic content in the video)

https://hoodsite.com/ahmaud-arbery-shooting-raw-video-black-jogger-chased-and-shot-to-death-by-father-and-son-in-georgia/

In this video (shot minutes before the fatal indecent) we see Arbery WALKING (not jogging) towards the house, standing outside it for a time and then entering the property for circa four minutes. We then see a neighbor emerge and make a phone call to the police. When Arbery see's this neighbor, he takes off sprinting down the road towards the location of his death.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylOEBqHXOVQ

Here we see another incident involving Arbery where he refuses to allow a search of his car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEWhyrfgagA

Sorry if some of the links disappear, I am finding sources of information on this indecent disappear and reappear at different URL'S (probably due to this being a very raw case). This is a complex issue and I am sure I have left out some things in this post but I will endeavor to provide all information possible during the discussion.

My opinion:

I believe, based on the video evidence, that Arbery was up to no good at the property. He was on probation and another strike would have sent him to jail. I think he decided he wasn't going to go down and tried to get out of the situation by attempting to arm himself with Travis McMichaels shotgun. If you look at the footage of the fatal incident, he had innumerable avenues to avoid the McMichaels. He could have went ANYWHERE but chose to charge at them. I think their most prevalent falsehood in the mainstream narrative is that he was "cornered" by the McMichael. We can see from the footage that THIS IS NOT THE CASE.

Kidchameleon

Arbery's police mugshot, this image was very hard to find as the mainstream media seem to only show pictures of him in a tuxedo...

kirving

I have to be honest in that I haven't really looked into the case much more than your post and the video, but the simple fact is that if you shoot someone, you've got to be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that you had no other option available to you protect yourself (and property in some places I believe).

If I see someone up to no good, choose to approach them with a weapon, and then claim that I thought my own life was in danger because they didn't back down, I'd be in a very tricky situation both in a court of law and the court of public opinion.

joe40

Why would you take a gun to a confrontation if you did not intend to use it. Ahmaud saw armed men in his path, so he could either run away a risk getting shot at try disarm the men. He made a split second decision and was killed.

It does not matter what he was doing beforehand, it is immaterial.
If you choose to confront someone with a gun, and then shoot that person, murder in my books plain and simple.

blinding

joe40 wrote: »

Why would you take a gun to a confrontation if you did not intend to use it. Ahmaud saw armed men in his path, so he could either run away a risk getting shot at try disarm the men. He made a split second decision and was killed.

It does not matter what he was doing beforehand, it is immaterial.
If you choose to confront someone with a gun, and then shoot that person, murder in my books plain and simple.

America is not Ireland.

The well regulated militia in action.

Kidchameleon

Rise Of The Simps wrote: »

It's a murder in a foreign country. Why exactly am I supposed to care?

You dont have to care. Why did you bother posting? (rhetorical question)

Gatling

He was murdered in cold blood ,it's really simple ,
Sacked fat cop on a power trip with a loaded gun

Kidchameleon

joe40 wrote: »

Why would you take a gun to a confrontation if you did not intend to use it. .

Arbery was known to the McMichaels along with his weapons charge (Gregory had investigated him whilst on police duty) A gun had gone missing from a car in the neighborhood recently. In a call a few days before the indecent, Travis McMichaels had seen a man matching Arbery's description with what appeared to be a gun.

splinter65

Poor kid. One way or the other it looks as though he wasn’t going to live to be very old. Reckless behaviour in a country where you can be shot to death just at the drop of a hat.
Pretending that he was just out jogging is ridiculous.
Activists would get more respect if they conceded that he was probably up to no good but certainly didn’t deserve to be shot to death.

Kidchameleon

Gatling wrote: »

He was murdered in cold blood ,it's really simple ,
Sacked fat cop on a power trip with a loaded gun

The "fat cop" was retired and was not involved in the weapon discharge, it was his son and Arbery.

GY_1980

joe40 wrote: »

Why would you take a gun to a confrontation if you did not intend to use it. Ahmaud saw armed men in his path, so he could either run away a risk getting shot at try disarm the men. He made a split second decision and was killed.

It does not matter what he was doing beforehand, it is immaterial.
If you choose to confront someone with a gun, and then shoot that person, murder in my books plain and simple.

Georgia is an open and concealed carry State once licence is obtained. Even non-residents of the State can conceal carry once they have the licence. Basically, you can bring a gun anywhere you want, with restrictions for places like secure areas in airports, schools, etc.

Kidchameleon

The neighborhood where the indecent happened. IMHO, this man could not have been cornered, take a look, he could have ran ANYWHERE but chose to charge at the people making a citizens arrest. Also note that this estate is 12 miles from where Arbury lived. If he was jogging there, he had just run a mini marathon and still had to get home! He wasnt jogging by the way as we can see from the video's in the OP.



https://earth.google.com/web/search/Satilla+Drive,+Brunswick,+GA,+USA/@31.1255528,-81.556945,3.78945886a,888.8294071d,35y,0h,45t,0r/data=CosBGmESWwokMHg4OGU1MjdhYmIyYTRiMTVmOjB4ZjhmOTJjYzllMDYxNTZlGdXrcTokID9AIe0qpPykY1TAKiFTYXRpbGxhIERyaXZlLCBCcnVuc3dpY2ssIEdBLCBVU0EYAiABIiYKJAkmSFdrUWk0QBEoSFdrUWk0wBn2FXSoM9MvQCE8W5QTyoZVwCgC

Timberrrrrrrr

In the other thread you claimed he was wrestling the gun from the son and was therefore "arming" himself. If someone tries to mug you tomorrow with a knife and you take the knife from that person have you disarmed that person or have you armed yourself?

blinding

Kidchameleon wrote: »

The "fat cop" was retired and was not involved in the weapon discharge, it was his son and Arbery.

Getting stuff right is not important to these people !

Gatling

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Arbery was known to the McMichaels along with his weapons charge (Gregory had investigated him whilst on police duty)

From 5/6 years previously do you honestly believe a sacked former cop

Kidchameleon

Some 911 calls on the day of the indecent including the one from the neighbor we see in the video...

Kidchameleon

Gatling wrote: »

From 5/6 years previously do you honestly believe a sacked former cop

AFAIK he was retired. Do you have a link showing that he was sacked

Kidchameleon

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

In the other thread you claimed he was wrestling the gun from the son and was therefore "arming" himself. If someone tries to mug you tomorrow with a knife and you take the knife from that person have you disarmed that person or have you armed yourself?

They were not trying to mug him, they were trying to make a citizens arrest. Did you watch the video? I mean, it couldn't be more clear. Please also look at the Google Earth link I provided. The house was number 220. He could have gone anywhere. He was making a last stand IMHO.

jam_mac_jam

Even if he was a burglar they still had no right to shot him. You can still commit a murder against somebody who has a criminal record. Why is any of that relevant?

It may have some relevance if it was their property but it wasn't. Civilised countries like the US have courts, you don't have the right to kill someone because you suspect they are burglars.

Kidchameleon

911 call from Gregory McMichael from days before the indecent where he describes a black man who looks like he is armed entering the property in question... This phone call I believe shows why the were carrying their guns for the citizens arrest.

jam_mac_jam

Kidchameleon wrote: »

911 call from Gregory McMichael from days before the indecent where he describes a black man who looks like he is armed entering the property in question... This phone call I believe shows why the were carrying their guns for the citizens arrest.

Maybe they should have rang the police and let professionals deal with it.

joe40

I don't know enough about the legal system to make a definite opinion but from a purely morality viewpoint for me this was murder.
Surely there are laws against vigilante justice. I would imagine any self respecting police force would not encourage civilians taking guns to make a citizen's arrest.
Shooting and killings are bound to happen in that situation.
There is no way these men's actions should be condoned, regardless of their motivation.
They police force are available for this work not armed vigilantes

banie01

Gatling wrote: »

He was murdered in cold blood ,it's really simple ,
Sacked fat cop on a power trip with a loaded gun

Sacked fat cop who'd previously arrested Aubray too.
The person who videoed the confrontation has also been charged with murder.

The right to a citizen's arrest is exercisable when the citizen believes a felony has been commited, in this instance CCTV from a house under construction shows a trespass, but no actual theft.

There was no felony offence, so Arbery had every right not to engage, to resist, to run, to take umbrage and try to defend himself even.

There is far more detail and context to this case than KC's OP.

The accused claimed they were stopping a suspect in a spate of recent burglaries in the area.
No burglaries reported in the previous 7 weeks, and the most recent one reported was a theft of a gun from the accused's car.

That Arbery could have stopped, could have cooperated is frankly irrelevant, the folks accused had no valid power of arrest and without that, their actions are at the very least reckless and should result in a manslaughter conviction.

The fact that Daddy had prior knowledge of Arbery only strengthens a case for some degree of murder charge to be laid.

There needs to be a thorough review of citizen's arrest in all jurisdictions, particularly in ones where folk can roam armed, the days of a victim raising hue and cry are gone and the expectation of the citizen to act as arrestor or enforcer need to go the same way.

banie01

Kidchameleon wrote: »

911 call from Gregory McMichael from days before the indecent where he describes a black man who looks like he is armed entering the property in question... This phone call I believe shows why the were carrying their guns for the citizens arrest.

Yet the CCTV releases by the property owner covering November to date, shows no such incident.

blinding

This case has potential huge repercussions for Neighbours looking after one another's property, Neighbourhood watch Schemes, Gun Rights, etc etc etc

Danzy

He was a shi7 bag and it caught up with him.

His neighbours are safer for it.

GY_1980

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Even if he was a burglar they still had no right to shot him. You can still commit a murder against somebody who has a criminal record. Why is any of that relevant?

It may have some relevance if it was their property but it wasn't. Civilised countries like the US have courts, you don't have the right to kill someone because you suspect they are burglars.

This is incorrect.

The law in Georgia is clear. You can open/conceal carry guns with a licence. You have a right to pursue and privately arrest a burglary suspect. If you’re attacked in the process, you can legally defend yourself under the State’s stand your ground law. There’s no duty to retreat or stand down.

I’m assuming the State are looking at the pursuit and will argue the pursuit wasn’t justified. The defence will argue it was.

double jobbing

Kidchameleon wrote: »

In this video (shot minutes before the fatal indecent) we see Arbery WALKING (not jogging) towards the house, standing outside it for a time and then entering the property for circa four minutes. .

Something that amazed me in the case reading comments by yanks- a lot of them were saying about how regularly they wander in to building sites to have a look around. While in this country they are locked up at night, more to prevent eejits getting injured and suing than anything.

25 years ago we laughed at litigious yanks suing over hot McDonalds drinks, yet this showed me how bad our litigation culture had got, that even in the land of the lawyer you seemingly can't sue if you injure yourself trespassing on a building site.

Tasfasdf

I mean whatever about being a scumbag or not , attacking a lad with a shotgun is probably not the a wise choice:rolleyes:

blinding

Tasfasdf wrote: »

I mean whatever about being a scumbag or not , attacking a lad with a shotgun is probably not the a wise choice:rolleyes:

Maybe he was High or something ! It was a crazy decision !

jam_mac_jam

GY_1980 wrote: »

This is incorrect.

The law in Georgia is clear. You can open/conceal carry guns with a licence. You have a right to pursue and privately arrest a burglary suspect. If you’re attacked in the process, you can legally defend yourself under the State’s stand your ground law. There’s no duty to retreat or stand down.

I’m assuming the State are looking at the pursuit and will argue the pursuit wasn’t justified. The defence will argue it was.

In that case can you not just chase anyone with a gun and you can say you suspected them. I would imagine the law says if you see them committing a crime not if you suspect.

Does the person you are chasing with a gun not also have a right to defend themselves?

jam_mac_jam

blinding wrote: »

Maybe he was High or something ! It was a crazy decision !

Or maybe he felt it was only chance to not be killed?

blinding

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Or maybe he felt it was only chance to not be killed?

His odds of getting shot were small if he kept running or sat down and waited for the Police.

BorneTobyWilde

It's similar to Travellers here, they can rob and beat pensioners to a pulp in their own home, but how dare anyone say anything about them.
Looks the same here. Yes he was black, and clearly out robbing properties, and how dare a white man try to stop him.
The world is too PC/

He died in a struggle, grabbing at a gun, what would have happened had he got it from him and killed him instead. He'd be going life.
If he was an honest law abiding citizen he'd be a live.

GY_1980

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

In that case can you not just chase anyone with a gun and you can say you suspected them. I would imagine the law says if you see them committing a crime not if you suspect.

Does the person you are chasing with a gun not also have a right to defend themselves?

From a legal perspective, you must have been present during the burglary or have reasonable/immediate knowledge that the person was involved in a burglary.

That’s why I’m assuming the DA is pressing charges. They will argue this wasn’t present and therefore the pursuers were not legally entitled to pursue and attempt arrest. The defence will argue that the pursuers had the knowledge required to form the belief they did.

Of course, the prosecution will bring in a race angle to the trial while the defence will attempt to put the dead man on trial. The media will lap up the division this brings.

Overheal

Kidchameleon wrote: »

They were not trying to mug him, they were trying to make a citizens arrest. Did you watch the video? I mean, it couldn't be more clear. Please also look at the Google Earth link I provided. The house was number 220. He could have gone anywhere. He was making a last stand IMHO.

I didn’t hear any mention of a citizens arrest in the video did you

Gatling

Kidchameleon wrote: »

AFAIK he was retired. Do you have a link showing that he was sacked

He was removed from carrying out law enforcement activity/duties and was moved to a purely civilian role in a DA office away from his former police department .
Back in earlier before the shooting

So yeah sacked as a cop

Overheal

He was sacked and failed to complete basic escalation of force training. Extremely relevant here. He also had long since lost his powers of arrest.

Kidchameleon

Overheal wrote: »

I didn’t hear any mention of a citizens arrest in the video did you

Other than the video showing them attempting one then no

Kidchameleon

Gatling wrote: »

He was removed from carrying out law enforcement activity/duties and was moved to a purely civilian role in a DA office away from his former police department .
Back in earlier before the shooting

So yeah sacked as a cop

Thats not being sacked. Also, link please

Kidchameleon

GY_1980 wrote: »

From a legal perspective, you must have been present during the burglary or have reasonable/immediate knowledge that the person was involved in a burglary.

.

The neighbour told them they saw arbery. So they had immeadiate knowledge

Kidchameleon

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Maybe they should have rang the police and let professionals deal with it.

They did ring the police. The police were on their way to the scene as it happened. Which would suggest they were not out to murder anyone

Overheal

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Other than the video showing them attempting one then no

They didn’t say so in the video.

They didn’t say so in the 911 calls.

Hmm.

Overheal

Kidchameleon wrote: »

The neighbour told them they saw arbery. So they had immeadiate knowledge

Not of any felony.

Citizens Arrest does not then apply.

joe40

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

It's similar to Travellers here, they can rob and beat pensioners to a pulp in their own home, but how dare anyone say anything about them.
Looks the same here. Yes he was black, and clearly out robbing properties, and how dare a white man try to stop him.
The world is too PC/

He died in a struggle, grabbing at a gun, what would have happened had he got it from him and killed him instead. He'd be going life.
If he was an honest law abiding citizen he'd be a live.

Virtually everyone I know complain about travellers. Maybe not explicitly in the media, but general population would be very critical of traveller behavior. So it's not true that you can't complain about travellers.
Even on board's very few posters support traveller behavior or lifestyle.

But seriously, you are suggesting that criticism of an unarmed man been shot dead is evidence that the world is too PC. Pure nonsense.

Gatling

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Thats not being sacked.

What would you call it ,

A clap on the back ?

MadYaker

Didn’t those two worthless dirtbags get arrested and charged anyway? Hope they each get put in cells with some friendly African American chaps. I’m sure they’ll get a warm “welcome” in the showers.

Overheal

MadYaker wrote: »

Didn’t those two worthless dirtbags get arrested and charged anyway? Hope they each get put in cells with some friendly African American chaps. I’m sure they’ll get a warm “welcome” in the showers.

All three of them are in jail now. They booked the videographer a few days ago

2u2me

Kidchameleon wrote: »

They did ring the police. The police were on their way to the scene as it happened. Which would suggest they were not out to murder anyone

I heard they also made a call several days earlier and no police showed up; is that correct?

MadYaker

Rise Of The Simps wrote: »

You want potentially innocent men to be raped by blacks?? Are you a psycho?

Where did I say I wanted them to be raped?