GSOC says Gardai can exercise discretion in parking enforcement

robinbird

Very important decision by GSOC today. Following a complaint in relation to refusal by Gardai to take any action against taxi drivers in Cork that were using cycle lanes as taxi ranks the Garda Ombudsman has ruled that Gardai are entitled to use their discretion to ignore parking in cycle lanes as doing so in "not misbehaviour" Surely this ruling has nationwide significance.

Decision issued on behalf of GSOC by

James Morton
Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission
150 Upper Abbey Street, Dublin 1, D01 FT73

https://twitter.com/SamMcCormack97/status/1263481180361568260?s=20

hullaballoo

Yep, what GSOC said there is that members of AGS have discretion as to what they do and don't investigate. They are under no obligation to investigate any given complaint. It's a historic policing power that has been covered incredibly well in Legal Discussion by a member called GM228.

GSOC are tasked with investigating police conduct so when they say, "we do not view this as misbehaviour", it's the Garda's behaviour they're referring to.

It's not a comment on the practice of parking in cycle lanes.

magicbastarder

GSOC don't get to decide what's legal or illegal; but i suspect what GSOC are worried about is that if there is a precedent set that ignoring such parking *is* misbehaviour, a garda wouldn't be able to walk past a car parked badly without ticketing it, or else get in trouble.
and in that sense, i don't have a problem with the decision, because the brunt would be borne by the rank and file, and there needs to be leadership from the higher ups on this.

robinbird

hullaballoo wrote: »

Yep, what GSOC said there is that members of AGS have discretion as to what they do and don't investigate. They are under no obligation to investigate any given complaint. It's a historic policing power that has been covered incredibly well in Legal Discussion by a member called GM228.

GSOC are tasked with investigating police conduct so when they say, "we do not view this as misbehaviour", it's the Garda's behaviour they're referring to.

It's not a comment on the practice of parking in cycle lanes.

So parking in cycle lanes is an illegal activity but AGS have the discretion as to whether or not they can ignore it. But does this discretion apply to other illegal actions e.g. if a garda observes someone killing someone does he have the discretion to decide whether or not to ignore it. Is there a list of illegal activities for which gardai have this discretion?

Charles Babbage

robinbird wrote: »

So parking in cycle lanes is an illegal activity but AGS have the discretion as to whether or not they can ignore it. But does this discretion apply to other illegal actions e.g. if a garda observes someone killing someone does he have the discretion to decide whether or not to ignore it. Is there a list of illegal activities for which gardai have this discretion?

There is a difference between illegal activity that causes inconvenience and that which causes death.



When Gardai are present they should generally enforce the law but this is hardly the only one they do not enforce.

GinSoaked

If Cork coco were in anyway bothered by this surely they could just pay a traffic warden some overtime to hand out parking tickets, would probably pay his wages and make some profit.

ted1

I was under tyre impression that Gardai lost all power of discretion.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/gardai-should-have-power-to-use-discretion-ombudsman-29292516.html

magicbastarder

yeah, the problem is that they have too much discretion, but removing it entirely is not an immediate solution.

robinbird

Charles Babbage wrote: »

There is a difference between illegal activity that causes inconvenience and that which causes death.

When Gardai are present they should generally enforce the law but this is hardly the only one they do not enforce.

But if one of the cyclists that has to pull out in to traffic and is hit and killed the use of the cycle lane as a taxi rank would be an illegal activity that causes death.

The gardai are clearly stating here that they have the discretion to decide which laws to enforce and which to ignore. And that a guard ignoring certain types of illegal activity is not misbehaviour

And this is not a random car parking in a cycle lane. This is the cycle lane between the city centre and UCC and west of city that is full of parked taxis every evening.

GinSoaked wrote: »

If Cork coco were in anyway bothered by this surely they could just pay a traffic warden some overtime to hand out parking tickets, would probably pay his wages and make some profit.

The Council has given tacit approval to the Taxi Federation to use cycle lanes for parking and instructed its wardens not to issue fines
At the moment anyway there are no wardens on duty at any time in Cork City as they have all been decommissioned and redeployed.

GinSoaked

robinbird wrote: »

...

The Council has given tacit approval to the Taxi Federation to use cycle lanes for parking and instructed its wardens not to issue fines
At the moment anyway there are no wardens on duty at any time in Cork City as they have all been decommissioned and redeployed.

Then no wonder the Gardai are using their discretion.

Spanish Eyes

The Rebel County.

robinbird

robinbird wrote: »

At the moment anyway there are no wardens on duty at any time in Cork City as they have all been decommissioned and redeployed.

GinSoaked wrote: »

Then no wonder the Gardai are using their discretion.

So the situation is that as there are no more council traffic wardens cars are free to park where ever they like e.g. on pedestrian plazas, on footpaths, on cycle lanes etc.
Theoretically the Gardai could fine these cars but have decided to use their "discretion" to not do so. So the city centre is a mess of illegally parked cars.

Wishbone Ash

robinbird wrote: »

.... if a garda observes someone killing someone does he have the discretion to decide whether or not to ignore it...

You're not going to get much support with silly analogies like that. Have you a bell on your bike?

robinbird wrote: »

But if one of the cyclists that has to pull out in to traffic and is hit and killed the use of the cycle lane as a taxi rank would be an illegal activity that causes death....

This nonsense is spouted here regularly. 99.99% of our public thoroughfares do not have cycle lanes/tracks. If a cycle lane/track is obstructed, it becomes the same as 99.99% of other thoroughfares. It's an inconvienence - not a death sentence. And there are several reasons why a cycle lane/track may be legally occupied by a motor vehicle.

How did you manage in the pre cycle lane/track era?

JustAThought

Maybe they can start handing out fines and tickets for cyclists NOT using tei lane cycle laths but instead bloicking main road traffic, cycling with headphones in, and cyclists undertaking cars without leaving 1.5 meters safe space for themsleves.

c.p.w.g.w

Just get lots of cyclists to cycle the route but in the centre of the lane might help get the cycle lane issues sorted

Wishbone Ash

JustAThought wrote: »

Maybe they can start handing out fines and tickets for cyclists NOT using tei lane cycle laths but instead bloicking main road traffic, cycling with headphones in, and cyclists undertaking cars without leaving 1.5 meters safe space for themsleves.

Maybe you should study the road traffic regulations before displaying your ignorance in public.

There is no legal obligation on cyclists to use cycle lanes/tracks - they are perfectly entitled to use the road. A bicycle is a vehicle under legislation and part of 'traffic'. There is nothing illegal about using headphones or overtaking on the left nor is there an obligation on a cyclist to give 1.5 metres for themselves.

Now, your move.

hullaballoo

robinbird wrote: »

So parking in cycle lanes is an illegal activity but AGS have the discretion as to whether or not they can ignore it. But does this discretion apply to other illegal actions e.g. if a garda observes someone killing someone does he have the discretion to decide whether or not to ignore it. Is there a list of illegal activities for which gardai have this discretion?

My understanding is that the discretion is without limitations.

I will ask GM228 to comment because he is far better versed on this particular area than I am.

But it goes almost without saying that your analogy between using that discretion to decline to investigate parking awkwardly and witnessing a (presumably unlawful) killing is incomplete at best.

Personally I think it's very dangerous to park in a cycle lane and I am studious about staying out of them at all times unless they're clear and it's necessary for me to enter one, never mind that I wouldn't dream of parking in one.

But that's not really the point here. The point is that what GSOC have said and what AGS are obliged to do are both grossly misrepresented in the OP.

Carawaystick

I suppose one way to sort it might be for a group of 4 people with bicycles to park their bikes in the driving lanes beside where the taxis are parked, and block the road.
And complain about their treatment if the Gards treat them differently to the taxidrivers.

Bonus marks for getting two or more different groups to do it, and
bonus bonus marks for switching bikes and truthfully telling the gards that its not my bike when they ask you to move it.

ED E

Shower of useless prats. Harris is trying hard but he won't fix the org without a good 2000 dismissals.

https://twitter.com/JohnMacMahon/status/1261641769764167681

https://twitter.com/IBIKEDublin/status/1260502504409837569

https://twitter.com/przemart/status/1233481907297554433

https://twitter.com/GodsOwnBollox/status/1231331596717916160

https://twitter.com/bicycletting/status/1220800293832724482

https://twitter.com/mostlydrinking/status/1217516325515468807

jimmycrackcorm

robinbird wrote: »

So parking in cycle lanes is an illegal activity but AGS have the discretion as to whether or not they can ignore it. But does this discretion apply to other illegal actions e.g. if a garda observes someone killing someone does he have the discretion to decide whether or not to ignore it. Is there a list of illegal activities for which gardai have this discretion?

How about you look up the definition of discretion first?

ED E wrote: »

Shower of useless prats. Harris is trying hard but he won't fix the org without a good 2000 dismissals.

https://twitter.com/JohnMacMahon/status/1261641769764167681

https://twitter.com/IBIKEDublin/status/1260502504409837569

https://twitter.com/przemart/status/1233481907297554433

https://twitter.com/GodsOwnBollox/status/1231331596717916160

https://twitter.com/bicycletting/status/1220800293832724482

https://twitter.com/mostlydrinking/status/1217516325515468807

All but one of your included photos show empty road lanes where the parked vehicles aren't really causing a problem.
Either we accept a zero tolerance society where any simple infraction means you're hung, drawn and quartered, or we accept that we're human and flawed and make allowances both for how we perpetrate those flaws but also cast judgment on them.

I have to presume though that you've never driven a car 1 km/h over the speed limit.

buffalo

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

All but one of your included photos show empty road lanes where the parked vehicles aren't really causing a problem.

For a start, empty roads lead to faster drivers, so I don't see how that's not an issue?

They might not be causing an immediate problem for regulars on this forum, who are likely experienced cyclists, but they certainly cause problems for less confident cyclists. I am frequently surprised by friends and colleagues - who I consider quite smart and capable - telling me they only cycling to X place because "there are cycle lanes the whole way".

If those cycle lanes frequently become blocked, meaning that a novice cyclist has to manoeuvre out in front of a car driver going too fast to react properly or a bus driver who may already not take kindly to their presence - those cyclists will give up after a scare or two.

The other aspect for all of us is how often we hear the refrain "cyclists don't bother to use perfectly good cycle lanes that we paid for with all our motor tax", or similar. This leads to abuse on the road and airwaves, and on occasion threatening behaviour from others. And yet when we point out that the cycle lanes are being blocked on a regular basis, we're told that "sure just go around it".

Why would I bother using the lane if I'm going to have to leave it at some indeterminate point anyway? Why am I told that I shouldn't be on the road, but as soon as it suits someone to park in the cycle lane, the road is good enough for me?

magicbastarder

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

All but one of your included photos show empty road lanes where the parked vehicles aren't really causing a problem.

good thing it only happens when the roads are empty.

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Either we accept a zero tolerance society where any simple infraction means you're hung, drawn and quartered, or we accept that we're human and flawed and make allowances both for how we perpetrate those flaws but also cast judgment on them.

'sorry garda, i only did it because i'm human and i'm not perfect'
'sure aren't we all? who am i to judge, i'm only a garda and as flawed as you. can i have a hug?'

Rodney Bathgate

JustAThought wrote: »

Maybe they can start handing out fines and tickets for cyclists NOT using tei lane cycle laths but instead bloicking main road traffic, cycling with headphones in, and cyclists undertaking cars without leaving 1.5 meters safe space for themsleves.

Not to mention cyclists on footpaths. Something that seems much more prevalent these days.

buffalo

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Not to mention cyclists on footpaths. Something that seems much more prevalent these days.

Did you read the thread? The cycle lanes are full of cars that Gardaí aren't bothered about.

There's also an entire forum here...

Mc Love

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Not to mention cyclists on footpaths. Something that seems much more prevalent these days.

Because for many they dont feel safe enough cycling on the road.

magicbastarder

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Not to mention cyclists on footpaths. Something that seems much more prevalent these days.

an interesting example of gardai using their discretion.
postmen have no legal derogation for cycling on the path, but the notion of them being convicted for any offence is obviously a non-runner.
this is why the gardai have discretion; some laws are unenforceable, or the consequences of enforcing them far outweigh the offence.

the issue is not that gardai have the power to use their discretion in regards to drivers parking on footpaths or in cycle lanes, it's that they use their discretion on this issue 100% of the time.

GreeBo

One wonders why the council pays for cycle lanes that they are happy to surrender to taximen.
I'd be asking my council why they are wasting my money on them.

Macy0161

magicbastarder wrote: »

GSOC don't get to decide what's legal or illegal; but i suspect what GSOC are worried about is that if there is a precedent set that ignoring such parking *is* misbehaviour, a garda wouldn't be able to walk past a car parked badly without ticketing it, or else get in trouble.
and in that sense, i don't have a problem with the decision, because the brunt would be borne by the rank and file, and there needs to be leadership from the higher ups on this.

Won't someone think of the mass/ religious service goers, when those resume. Can't be expected to park legally when worshipping your god...

Mc Love

Macy0161 wrote: »

Won't someone think of the mass/ religious service goers, when those resume. Can't be expected to park legally when worshipping your god...

Very true - most park on the footpath if they cant find a spot. Limerick Council actually did block off the front of the church with wands to stop mass goers from parking in the cycle lane, although you get some idiots that park right at the start of the lane which is also on a corner. The same person would park beside the altar if they could

Charles Babbage

robinbird wrote: »

But if one of the cyclists that has to pull out in to traffic and is hit and killed the use of the cycle lane as a taxi rank would be an illegal activity that causes death.

The cyclist should not pull out if it is dangerous to do so.

One road user is not entitled to behave recklessly because another has broken the law.



Someone mentioned traffic wardens. I think there is a role for such who would concentrate on this type of offence.

Rodney Bathgate

buffalo wrote: »

Did you read the thread? The cycle lanes are full of cars that Gardaí aren't bothered about.

There's also an entire forum here...

Not sure what your point is?

Are you saying that it is okay for cyclists to break the law because some cycling lanes may have cars in them?

buffalo

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Not sure what your point is?

Are you saying that it is okay for cyclists to break the law because some cycling lanes may have cars in them?

No, I'm saying this thread is a very weird place to raise that topic.

Seth Brundle

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Someone mentioned traffic wardens. I think there is a role for such who would concentrate on this type of offence.

So hire a public servant to police the manner in which some selfish drivers park because the police couldn't be arsed doing it?

CramCycle

JustAThought wrote: »

Maybe they can start handing out fines and tickets for cyclists NOT using tei lane cycle laths but instead bloicking main road traffic, cycling with headphones in, and cyclists undertaking cars without leaving 1.5 meters safe space for themsleves.

MOD VOICE: Do not post in this thread again, any questions via PM

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Not to mention cyclists on footpaths. Something that seems much more prevalent these days.

MOD VOICE: It is off topic, leave this part of the discussion alone. Any questions via PM only

Chips Lovell

I don't think it's a case of "can't be arsed". More the fact that there's only a certain amount Gardai, which tranlsates in to X amount of policing time. They need to be able to exercise their discretion into how to best use that policing time.

CramCycle

Chips Lovell wrote: »

I don't think it's a case of "can't be arsed". More the fact that there's only a certain amount Gardai, which tranlsates in to X amount of policing time. They need to be able to exercise their discretion into how to best use that policing time.

And its very much something that has been flagged by rank and file Gardai as an issue. The paperwork with even minor offences is time consuming. so much so that in a short while it clearly becomes a drain on resources with Supers informing them not to follow up to much on such offences as it takes them off the front line. They need a system like the cops in many US states have. See a car, pull out the device, insert the reg plate, tick the box for the offence, ticket printed, job done. A print out for the windscreen and the FPN sent to the registered address. I have heard it from friends who are gardai and I think the Garda AMA thread on the site covered it a bit as well.

Blueshoe

I see from the photos that apart from Garda vehicles parking in cycling lanes there are also some delivery vehicles shown.
On occasion I would be carrying out deliveries in Dublin city centre and have no option but to park wherever I can as the stick I'm dropping off can be heavy and akward.
I see many other delivery drivers doing similar. This isn't going to change. There is rarely a suitable loading zone available or even present.

What are the thoughts of cyclists on here about delivery vehicles in cycling lanes

Hurrache

Blueshoe wrote: »

What are the thoughts of cyclists on here about delivery vehicles in cycling lanes

They simply shouldn't be there.

There's usually always an alternative (see the recent Supervalu driver driving over the orcas), I understand (but don't excuse) why they do it.

They'd rather inconvenience many people than inconvenience themselves to make things easier for themselves.

magicbastarder

i remember reading that in miami in the 80s, police were so overwhelmed, that they weren't prosecuting cannabis possession cases of under 2 tons.
must see if i can find a source for that.

Blueshoe

Hurrache wrote: »

They simply shouldn't be there.

There's usually always an alternative (see the recent Supervalu driver driving over the orcas), I understand (but don't excuse) why they do it.

They'd rather inconvenience many people than inconvenience themselves to make things easier for themselves.

But there isn't an alternative. Until many many more loading bays are placed nothing will change. It can't

CramCycle

Blueshoe wrote: »

What are the thoughts of cyclists on here about delivery vehicles in cycling lanes

Why not just park in the traffic lane then? Its a genuine question but normally when a delivery van parks on a cycle lane it either parks on the footpath and cycle lane and still covers a bit of the driving lane therefore stopping one mode, restricting the most vulnerable mode and still inconveniencing the other that they are trying to avoid. The other times they block the bike path and the traffic lane (about half of it), so they essentially have blocked one mode that contains VRUs, then also block motorised traffic who have to perform an overtake anyway. Why not just block one mode only and leave it at that? Or the council make it illegal and force their hand, you have to find a car park or loading bay space, and if you have to wheel goods 100m then that price can be born by the consumer in the end.

I would also accept timed deliveries, make it between 4am and 7am. Road traffic and cycle lane use is light, very few pedestrians. Businesses have to pay someone to come in early but deliveries will be quicker and safer all round

Hurrache

Blueshoe wrote: »

But there isn't an alternative. Until many many more loading bays are placed nothing will change. It can't

Like Cramcycle said, why not just park on the traffic lane and leave the footpath and cycle lanes free?

There usually is alternatives though, there's always loading bays somewhere, the option to go find them is usually just not taken, mainly for the effort in carting the stuff to where it's intended for.

In the plan that Peregrine linked to, it has

The option of identifying specific delivery times off-peak for goods deliveries is also to be considered.

magicbastarder

the problem is that many road designers don't build loading bays into their designs, there's been a laissez fare attitude of 'sure people will work around it' which has helped lead us here.

Blueshoe

CramCycle wrote: »

Why not just park in the traffic lane then? Its a genuine question but normally when a delivery van parks on a cycle lane it either parks on the footpath and cycle lane and still covers a bit of the driving lane therefore stopping one mode, restricting the most vulnerable mode and still inconveniencing the other that they are trying to avoid. The other times they block the bike path and the traffic lane (about half of it), so they essentially have blocked one mode that contains VRUs, then also block motorised traffic who have to perform an overtake anyway. Why not just block one mode only and leave it at that? Or the council make it illegal and force their hand, you have to find a car park or loading bay space, and if you have to wheel goods 100m then that price can be born by the consumer in the end.

I would also accept timed deliveries, make it between 4am and 7am. Road traffic and cycle lane use is light, very few pedestrians. Businesses have to pay someone to come in early but deliveries will be quicker and safer all round

Drivers can park in the road and block a lane of they wish. One of my co workers actually did this recently. A car was parked in the loading bay so he just stopped alongside it, blocked traffic in that lane and refused to move and just waited despite the beeping from those behind him. A Garda eventually came and ended up taking his side because of the car in the loading bay.

Personally I won't be blocking a car lane. Most of my stops are 5 or 10 minutes so until more loading bays are made available to deliver drivers I will continue to park where I can.

I haven't heard anyone or body make the suggestion for 4am to 7am deliveries. Vehicles have to be loaded so drivers would be starting their shift at 1am or so. That's pie in the sky stuff in my opinion.

I can't see anything happening any time soon to be honest

Blueshoe

Hurrache wrote: »

Like Cramcycle said, why not just park on the traffic lane and leave the footpath and cycle lanes free?

There usually is alternatives though, there's always loading bays somewhere, the option to go find them is usually just not taken, mainly for the effort in carting the stuff to where it's intended for.

In the plan that Peregrine linked to, it has

Sorry I didn't see the plan. Can you link it again. I'd be interested in reading that part. Thanks

Eamonnator

Blueshoe wrote: »

I see from the photos that apart from Garda vehicles parking in cycling lanes there are also some delivery vehicles shown.
On occasion I would be carrying out deliveries in Dublin city centre and have no option but to park wherever I can as the stick I'm dropping off can be heavy and akward.
I see many other delivery drivers doing similar. This isn't going to change. There is rarely a suitable loading zone available or even present.

What are the thoughts of cyclists on here about delivery vehicles in cycling lanes

Why should other road and footpath users be inconvenienced/endangered simply for your convenience?

Blueshoe

Eamonnator wrote: »

Why should other road and footpath users be inconvenienced/endangered simply for your convenience?

Necessity rather than convenience.
Options are very limited out there. It's a headache for all involved

CrankyHaus

GreeBo wrote: »

One wonders why the council pays for cycle lanes that they are happy to surrender to taximen.
I'd be asking my council why they are wasting my money on them.

I don't know the details but my understanding is that there are various funds and grants available to Local Authorities to "build" cycle lanes.


I suspect that this is the incentive to paint a few lines on the road, call it a job done, and get some of that sweet $$$, then never think of it again, much less maintain it, and give motor vehicles carte blanche to park all over it.



Certainly it may explain many of the ridiculous cycle lanes in this country that IMO either do nothing to improve cyclist safety or even put them at greater risk.


https://ecf.com/what-we-do/european-funding/eu-funds-cycling-campaign

Rodney Bathgate

buffalo wrote: »

No, I'm saying this thread is a very weird place to raise that topic.

Not really. Dealing with cyclists on footpaths isn’t enforced, so very much related to this topic.

markpb

Blueshoe wrote: »

Personally I won't be blocking a car lane. Most of my stops are 5 or 10 minutes so until more loading bays are made available to deliver drivers I will continue to park where I can

Blueshoe wrote: »

Necessity rather than convenience.
Options are very limited out there. It's a headache for all involved

You've been given an option and said you won't be using it. You even said yourself that the Guards were okay with it. So it's convenience rather than necessity. You have decided that people driving are more important and cannot be inconvenienced but people walking or cycling are fair game.

A headache is someone having to stop for a few seconds and overtake you if you're parked on the road. A blind person not being able to get past you or a cyclist putting their lives in danger is far more than a headache but you don't realise that because you're too busy worrying about slowing down someone in a car. I don't blame you, it's just the culture in Ireland at the minute.

How would you react if a cyclist parked their bike on the road because there were no spaces beside the shop they're delivering to?

Eamonnator

Blueshoe wrote: »

Necessity rather than convenience.
Options are very limited out there. It's a headache for all involved

Yes, but it shouldn't be a headache for cyclists/pedestrians, it's shouldn't be their problem. Use the limited options.