The Irish rental market needs more regulation

Jjohnrockk

Cupatae wrote: »

Are you tryna say landlords don't make a profit? I'm not seeing the break even part.

I am.blessed to learn that LL are doing charity. Renting houses at loss is a charity in any country. Thanks LL for being so kind hearted.

Do me a favour- offer me your spare money. I shall give you some returns in positive. What I fear is you may else invest extra money into another house and rent it for charity I.e at loss.

May be hidden secret is at the end of morthage LL gift houses to homeless for free.

Who invests at loss? All the big companies who renting houses in Dublin are making losses? Last I read was some big corporate name had jump of 150% profits since a previous year riding on rental income. Charity happens at 50% jump in profits???

Cupatae

Jjohnrockk wrote: »

I am.blessed to learn that LL are doing charity. Renting houses at loss is a charity in any country. Thanks LL for being so kind hearted.

Do me a favour- offer me your spare money. I shall give you some returns in positive. What I fear is you may else invest extra money into another house and rent it for charity I.e at loss.

May be hidden secret is at the end of morthage LL gift houses to homeless for free.

Who invests at loss? All the big companies who renting houses in Dublin are making losses? Last I read was some big corporate name had jump of 150% profits since a previous year riding on rental income. Charity happens at 50% jump in profits???

They sure do make profits , you d be silly to think any ll is renting for the craic

I find it strange to see so much sympathy for LL s on here.. I don't hate em but I certainly dont have sympathy most are doing well for themselves at worst they ll have a house

runawaybishop

Cupatae wrote: »

They sure do make profits , you d be silly to think any ll is renting for the craic

I find it strange to see so much sympathy for LL s on here.. I don't hate em but I certainly dont have sympathy most are doing well for themselves at worst they ll have a house

At worst they will have sunk more into a house than it is worth. That's the risk they take, waiting 10/20 years to hopefully realise a profit

markodaly

steddyeddy wrote: »

If the corona pandemic has highlighted on thing it's that the Irish rental market has some serious problems. In an article from the Independent, Amy Molloy reveals that the some Irish landlords have repeatedly flouted the tenancy laws, with one landlord owing 44k due to repeatedly unlawful ending of tenancies.




On the Commercial side of things we're seeing the closure of Bewley's, a business entity which sees over 600,000 customers pass through their doors. The closure of a business affects all of the other businesses around it through loss of custom.

More recently Nick's coffee company in Ranelagh, Dublin has been closed by a local landlord responsible for closing several businesses in the area.


I know people will say that being late with rent is a problem for landlords too but where's the priority here? A landlord that misses out on some payment, in part due to an epidemic or a business like Bewley's which sees up to 600,000 a year pass through its doors.

It seems the case that a commercial landlord might avoid a loss but the economy takes a much bigger hit in the process. Is this sustainable? What's more important, that businesses stay open or that landlords are protected from loss?

I am not sure what the problem is here.
The landlords in question here are rightly being asked to compensate their tenants for illegal behavior.

The issue of commercial landlords is a different thing entirely. An owner of a building will have a big mortgage to pay. Covid-19 will shake up the entire sector though, especially office buildings.

beauf

steddyeddy wrote: »

If the corona pandemic has highlighted on thing it's that the Irish rental market has some serious problems. In an article from the Independent, Amy Molloy reveals that the some Irish landlords have repeatedly flouted the tenancy laws, with one landlord owing 44k due to repeatedly unlawful ending of tenancies.


On the Commercial side of things we're seeing the closure of Bewley's, a business entity which sees over 600,000 customers pass through their doors. The closure of a business affects all of the other businesses around it through loss of custom.

More recently Nick's coffee company in Ranelagh, Dublin has been closed by a local landlord responsible for closing several businesses in the area.


I know people will say that being late with rent is a problem for landlords too but where's the priority here? A landlord that misses out on some payment, in part due to an epidemic or a business like Bewley's which sees up to 600,000 a year pass through its doors.

It seems the case that a commercial landlord might avoid a loss but the economy takes a much bigger hit in the process. Is this sustainable? What's more important, that businesses stay open or that landlords are protected from loss?

Did you miss the news for the last 20 yrs and the housing crisis or something?

Can't read your link its behind a pay wall.

How are the LLs protected for loss. Rather the opposite. They are the one paying for most of this. Who did you think was paying for it?

if they break the law they get punished. How did you think this worked?

JustAThought

I’d like the tax the government takes from the rent to be removed entirely - it is a double taxation from the tenant on their earnings - once via PAYE and again via a higher rent demanded because 50% off the rent is due in tax from the LL to the government which is ultimately paid for by higher rents to civer this tax required from the tenant.

Following ten days grace, Immediate police facilitated forced evictions for non payments of rent. This country is awash with hotel ‘emergency’ accommodation and overnight hostels. If an tenant does not pay their rent and can not borrow it from work, friends or family or justify it for an emergency payment from the social welfare office then out they go to a hostel or hotel.

The Belgians (used) have a system where three times the rent was the deposit. Each side went the same day to the rental and itemised every nick, stain and wear in it - all contents counted and accounted for. This is kept in an third party facilitated account that neither can access. When the lease is up an independent inspector goes through the peoperty with both LL and tenant and they review what damage is done and this is deducted from the depisit and the balance returned to the tenant.

A national database of lists of offenses and images for tenants who have unpaid bills/ default on the lease or leave before the end of the lease without good documented reason or agreement - searchable and accessible to all like in the US - so defaulters will pay the price if their actions and other landlords not fall victim to recidivist cheats or thiefs.

Mortgage holding landlords being able to sell the debt of the tenant to debt collectors within the banking industry so the tenant will have their unpaid rent added to their existing debts or visa bills or be refused loians/car HP/credit/mortgages in the future until their debt is repaid.

The end of HAP and rent allowance being paid out for life for people who can work but choose not to .An end to unsustainable rents being paid in city centre locations for tenants who think they are entitled to taxpayer funded lifestyle choices in the city of their choice while not working for life - bulk send them to Leitrim or Carlow or low rent Roscommon & make them pay their lifestyle debt via community improvement work schemes -
litter piicking, road sweeping, painting etc.


Automatic first priority governmental rental housing and subsidised rent for life to be given to the disabled Irish adult children with facility for a prent or carer to live rent free with them if wanted and automatic entitlement to 24/7’carers to support them.

Homes and communities for the mentally ill to be build and staffed - modern caring enclosed and safe ‘institutions’ with catering, mental health professionals and 24/7 workers - not this discarded into the community in a HAP bedsit or incapable of running a house rental and paying rent and managing alone with Down Syndrome/Serious Behavioural and mental health illness crap.

etc.

Better Than Christ

JustAThought wrote: »

I’d like the tax the government takes from the rent to be removed entirely - it is a double taxation from the tenant on their earnings - once via PAYE and again via a higher rent demanded because 50% off the rent is due in tax from the LL to the government which is ultimately paid for by higher rents to civer this tax required from the tenant.

Why should landlords - the most privileged people in the country - not have to pay tax? We all pay income tax - why should someone who doesn't even have to work for it be exempt?

The state should build enough houses to kill the private rental sector off completely.

Better Than Christ

Better Than Christ wrote: »

Why should landlords - the most privileged people in the country - not have to pay tax?

How exactly are LL "most privileged people in the country"?

We all pay income tax - why should someone who doesn't even have to work for it be exempt?

Very few LL would be able to live entirely off their rental incomes... where are you getting the idea that LL don't work, in addition to being LL?

The state should build enough houses to kill the private rental sector off completely.

So... people would be renting off the State instead? Unless you're expecting houses to be built with no costs involved.. and no purchase needed by people? Where would the State get the money to do this massive undertaking?

boring accountant

runawaybishop wrote: »

It's enforcement that is needed, not more regulation. No point having regulations if you can just ignore them and get away with it.

This is the beginning and the end of the conversation. Until a tenant can call up the PRTB or the commercial equivalent and get someone to come out to the property to deal with the dispute unfortunately landlords will continue to run roughshod over tenants rights. Has to be said most landlords are fine and play by the rules, but stricter enforcement (and that means not 6 months after the fact) is needed.

boring accountant

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How exactly are LL "most privileged people in the country"?



Very few LL would be able to live entirely off their rental incomes... where are you getting the idea that LL don't work, in addition to being LL?



So... people would be renting off the State instead? Unless you're expecting houses to be built with no costs involved.. and no purchase needed by people? Where would the State get the money to do this massive undertaking?

Landowners by nature are always the among the most privileged in any society, I wouldn’t have thought that would require explanation.

Rodney Bathgate

Another thread where the opener fails to mention rogue tenants, instead focusing on landlords. Pointless thread if there is no balance.

boring accountant

boring accountant wrote: »

Landowners by nature are always the among the most privileged in any society, I wouldn’t have thought that would require explanation.

I'd still like a proper explanation... how are they more "privileged" than other citizens?

Landlords in the distant past (80-100 years ago) were more privileged. Don't see how they're more privileged now than the majority of Irish citizens. The only difference is that they (LL) were able to get a mortgage/buy a property. That's not privilege.

Donald Trump

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd still like a proper explanation... how are they more "privileged" than other citizens?

Landlords in the distant past (80-100 years ago) were more privileged. Don't see how they're more privileged now than the majority of Irish citizens. The only difference is that they (LL) were able to get a mortgage/buy a property. That's not privilege.

Of course it's a privilege. It might be one that lots of people have but that doesn't make it not a privilege.

beauf

boring accountant wrote: »

This is the beginning and the end of the conversation. Until a tenant can call up the PRTB or the commercial equivalent and get someone to come out to the property to deal with the dispute unfortunately landlords will continue to run roughshod over tenants rights. Has to be said most landlords are fine and play by the rules, but stricter enforcement (and that means not 6 months after the fact) is needed.

This works both ways. For a LL it can take years to disputes resolved with tenants, because tenants rights are stronger and enforced (if slow) where as LL rights are weaker and not enforced at all. The LL will eventually have to take a legal action themselves.

beauf

Better Than Christ wrote: »

Why should landlords - the most privileged people in the country - not have to pay tax? We all pay income tax - why should someone who doesn't even have to work for it be exempt?

The state should build enough houses to kill the private rental sector off completely.

You don't have to rent a house of a private LL.

That you can't rent of the Govt is an issue between tenants and the Govt.

Nothing to the with LLs.

Donald Trump

Donald Trump wrote: »

Of course it's a privilege. It might be one that lots of people have but that doesn't make it not a privilege.

A privilege being a special right, or benefit/advantage, only available to a particular group of people?

The only thing preventing others from becoming a property owner is financing/money.

steddyeddy

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Another thread where the opener fails to mention rogue tenants, instead focusing on landlords. Pointless thread if there is no balance.

Actually Rodney it's more pointless if you fail to read it. Scroll up a bit and you'll see I had my own experience with terrible tenants.

Pkiernan

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A privilege being a special right, or benefit/advantage, only available to a particular group of people?

The only thing preventing others from becoming a property owner is financing/money.

Sounds like dole spongers are privileged so...

Mad_maxx

Better Than Christ wrote: »

Why should landlords - the most privileged people in the country - not have to pay tax? We all pay income tax - why should someone who doesn't even have to work for it be exempt?

The state should build enough houses to kill the private rental sector off completely.

who then foots the bill for the 30% minimum state residential tenants who refuse to pay a red cent in rent ?

Mad_maxx

boring accountant wrote: »

Landowners by nature are always the among the most privileged in any society, I wouldn’t have thought that would require explanation.

" privileged " is a deeply political term

Pkiernan

Pkiernan wrote: »

Sounds like dole spongers are privileged so...

That's pretty irrelevant to this discussion. There have been more than enough dole bashing threads, as it is.

beauf

But we haven't enough ill informed LL bashing threads....

steddyeddy

beauf wrote: »

But we haven't enough ill informed LL bashing threads....

Out of interest could you point out what part of my op was wrong?

Rodney Bathgate

steddyeddy wrote: »

Actually Rodney it's more pointless if you fail to read it. Scroll up a bit and you'll see I had my own experience with terrible tenants.

I read the opening post, not much balance there.

Truthvader

Another thread for People Before Profit/Left Wing fantasists who can't understand why "someone else" can't pay for everything they want

steddyeddy

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

I read the opening post, not much balance there.

Fair play Rodney. Ignore the rest of the thread so.

beauf

steddyeddy wrote: »

Out of interest could you point out what part of my op was wrong?

Pretty much all of it.

This old news not new.
Its broken on both sides.
There been constant legislation over decades added for tenants non for LLs.
Landlords have no protection.
We don't need more regulation we need prompt enforcement.
There's so much regulation now its confusing.
We've added more for Covid.

I could go on but whats the point, you did zero research, and made a sweeping generalization based on a tiny % of cases. Which of course leads others to respond in kind.

Rodney Bathgate

steddyeddy wrote: »

Fair play Rodney. Ignore the rest of the thread so.

The opening post sets the tone for the thread. You are clearly not looking for anything other than another pointless landlord bashing thread.

You take the most extreme example of a single rogue landlord owing tens of thousands as if it is the norm, when it is clearly not, but don’t let that stop the rant.

steddyeddy

beauf wrote: »

Pretty much all of it.

This old news not new.
Its broken on both sides.
There been constant legislation over decades added for tenants non for LLs.
Landlords have no protection.
We don't need more regulation we need prompt enforcement.
There's so much regulation now its confusing.
We've added more for Covid.

I could go on but whats the point, you did zero research, and made a sweeping generalization based on a tiny % of cases. Which of course leads others to respond in kind.

And in part you're unable to respond to any of the points made. You based your own opinion on one post which you completely misread.

You're also complaining about a failure to mention tenants despite the fact I mentioned the effects of bad tenants on a previous residence.

steddyeddy

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

The opening post sets the tone for the thread. You are clearly not looking for anything other than another pointless landlord bashing thread.

You take the most extreme example of a single rogue landlord owing tens of thousands as if it is the norm, when it is clearly not, but don’t let that stop the rant.

That's what happens if you read one post Rodney.

steddyeddy

Just to say that I do indeed think that there should be regulation aimed at reducing both bad tenants and bad landlords. There's too many stories of each.

CtevenSrowder

Donald Trump wrote: »

Of course it's a privilege. It might be one that lots of people have but that doesn't make it not a privilege.

How is it a privilege? Someone working hard to be able to put themselves in a situation were they are indebted to a bank for 30 40 years is a privilege?

uptherebels

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

How is it a privilege? Someone working hard to be able to put themselves in a situation were they are indebted to a bank for 30 40 years is a privilege?

Id say it's more wanting to acquire a private asset but trying to get someone else to pay for it.

beauf

steddyeddy wrote: »

And in part you're unable to respond to any of the points made. You based your own opinion on one post which you completely misread.

You're also complaining about a failure to mention tenants despite the fact I mentioned the effects of bad tenants on a previous residence.

I if I didn't respond to "any" of your points what did you quote and what are you replying to???

Where did I say there was failure to mention tenants?

steddyeddy

beauf wrote: »

I if I didn't respond to "any" of your points what did you quote and what are you replying to???

Where did I say there was failure to mention tenants?

Some responses are more responsive than others b. Yours weren't responding to the facts presented but the feelings you got when you read them.

You're quite free to voice whatever opinion you have about tenants. Many others have while engaging in constructive dialogue.

beauf

steddyeddy wrote: »

Just to say that I do indeed think that there should be regulation aimed at reducing both bad tenants and bad landlords. There's too many stories of each.

There is regulation. You even quoted the cases. They couldn't bring a case unless there was regulation.

How can you read that article quote it, and come to the conclusion, there is no regulation????

The Residential Tenancies Acts 2004 to 2019 deal with the regulation of the mainstream private rented housing sector and the approved housing body sector. The Residential Tenancies (Amendment) Act 2019 also brings student-specific accommodation under the remit of the RTB. This came into effect on 15 July 2019 and means that tenants in student-specific accommodation have most of the same rights as private tenants.

The Acts set out the rights and obligations of both landlords and tenants in these sectors

The Residential Tenancies (Amendment) Act 2019 provides the RTB with additional powers to regulate the rental sector. The RTB has a new investigations and sanctions unit with the power to:

Investigate tenancy agreements with or without a formal complaint
Caution or sanction landlords with a fine of up to €15,000 if they do not meet their obligations as a landlord
The RTB will use these powers to monitor and enforce the legislation, particularly in relation to Rent Pressure Zones and termination of tenancy notices.

beauf

steddyeddy wrote: »

Some responses are more responsive than others b. Yours weren't responding to the facts presented but the feelings you got when you read them.

You're quite free to voice whatever opinion you have about tenants. Many others have while engaging in constructive dialogue.

What did I say that wasn't fact and was a "feeling"

steddyeddy

beauf wrote: »

There is regulation. You even quoted the cases. They couldn't bring a case unless there was regulation.

How can you read that article quote it, and come to the conclusion, there is no regulation????

You're confusing legislation with regulation. The legislation appears not to be enforced.

steddyeddy

beauf wrote: »

What did I say that wasn't fact and was a "feeling"

Probably something to do with all the smiley faces and question marks your tagging onto sentiments.

beauf

steddyeddy wrote: »

You're confusing legislation with regulation. The legislation appears not to be enforced.

regulation - a rule or directive made and maintained by an authority.

You're talking about enforcement.

It is enforced. Thats why there Just not timely.

You've quoted it being enforced, thats the case in the article.

beauf

steddyeddy wrote: »

Probably something to do with all the smiley faces and question marks your tagging onto sentiments.

I see you now you're avoiding answering the question.

steddyeddy

beauf wrote: »

You're talking about enforcement.

It is enforced. Thats why there Just not timely.

You've quoted it being enforced, thats the case in the article.

We'll agree to disagree B.

beauf

Lol, you'll call it a draw then....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmInkxbvlCs

So what regulation that isn't there are you looking for.

Rodney Bathgate

steddyeddy wrote: »

That's what happens if you read one post Rodney.

What is the point of your responses to me posts? I read YOUR opening post. It is biased nonsense. Can you not stop attempting to deflect from that?

steddyeddy

I don't think they're privileged if they earned their house(s).

I do however think that there's a big sense of entitled in the business models presented by some landlords.

For example there's several different business models to being a landlord. A lot of landlords seem to lump this in to one single business model, i.e renting a house to someone.

Thus you get someone saying that there's no profit in renting and you barely make even.

I have yet to here a landlord here including the type of investment initially made as a factor in whether they make a profit.

For example inheriting a house, getting a house with a mortgage, buying a house outright with cash or buying to let are the biggest determinants as to whether you make a profit.

You can't simply get a buy to let mortgage, take on tenants who essentially pay of that asset and complain that you don't make a profit on top of paying off an asset. That is entitlement and a sign of someone who has no idea about the realities of business. Fair play for people for doing it but be realistic as to what you're getting out of it.

CtevenSrowder

uptherebels wrote: »

Id say it's more wanting to acquire a private asset but trying to get someone else to pay for it.

DT, who I responded to, highlighted a certain part of klaaz's post. He seemed to be talking about homeowners in general, not just Landlords.

steddyeddy

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

What is the point of your responses to me posts? I read YOUR opening post. It is biased nonsense. Can you not stop attempting to deflect from that?

Sorry it upset you Rodney.

steddyeddy

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

DT, who I responded to, highlighted a certain part of klaaz's post. He seemed to be talking about homeowners in general, not just Landlords.

In fairness DT was also replying to a poster who was of the mind that tenancy fees should be enough to completely pay for an asset. interest on that asset and provide a profit on top of that. In the minds of people like that a mortgage isn't an asset loan, it's a business expense.

steddyeddy

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Exactly, so it has to cover the cost of itself including the mortgage payments to break even, thus when you lump the obscene tax on top, rent usually has to be around 2x the mortgage payment to break even in the short term, hence my original point, landlords aren't all scrooge mcduck sitting on piles of cash screwing over tenants like the original post suggested.

So let's say you get a buy to let mortgage. You're expectation is that the investment to be successful you have to have the asset completely paid for by the tenant as well as any other expenses?

What happens after you pay the mortgage off? Does your profit margin change? You're presenting an extremely simplistic view of investment.

Donald Trump

Deleted User wrote: »

The only difference is that they (LL) were able to get a mortgage/buy a property. That's not privilege.

You answered the point to yourself:

Deleted User wrote: »

A privilege being a special right, or benefit/advantage, only available to a particular group of people?

The only thing preventing others from becoming a property owner is financing/money.

Not everyone can get access to credit. Even when you get access to it, you can understand that others have access to more.




Imagine there is an investment opportunity in your area. If you put 50m in you will own part of a fabulous new shopping centre. Why don't you put it in? If Johnny Ronan can get a loan of 50m but you can't, is he not in a privileged position? Similarly, if you can get a 300k loan but the fella down the road can't, are you not similarly privileged in comparison?



Having no access to credit is one of the main drivers of continuing global poverty. Hence the importance of microfinance etc. Organisations such as Grameen Bank help to lift swathes of people out of poverty by providing access to credit. Access to credit is a privilege