Should prisoners have to work?

Cobalt17

So I’m not talking about a chain-gang style system. But surely prisoners can pay some sort of debt to society, like litter picking or something like that, which benefits the society they’ve sinned against?

Obviously enough there’s the logistics side of things, but is it not still an issue worth exploring?

TheBoyConor

Unions for the people who normally do that type of work would be up in arms over it claiming that some of their work is being taken away to be done by unpaid labour and that it harms their future propects and will reduced opportunities for people who might be inclined to start at that job.

CE schemes were done before, I know people who had to supervise and organise them. Some were fine and could work away grand but others were less than useless and cause all sorts of issues. In general the feeling was that it was more hassle than it was worth in terms of work done. And that is a CE scheme - imagine what it would be like with prisoners with a whole range of addiction, personality and mental problems on top of whatever criminal or violent tendencies they might have.

corner of hells

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Unions for the people who normally do that type of work would be up in arms over it claiming that some of their work is being taken away to be done by unpaid labour and that it harms their future propects and will reduced opportunities for people who might be inclined to start at that job.

CE schemes were done before, I know people who had to supervise and organise them. Some were fine and could work away grand but others were less than useless and cause all sorts of issues. In general the feeling was that it was more hassle than it was worth in terms of work done. And that is a CE scheme - imagine what it would be like with prisoners with a whole range of addiction, personality and mental problems on top of whatever criminal or violent tendencies they might have.

I think you might be mixing up Community Service and CE schemes, Community Service is applied to avoid the individual going to prison.

Edgware

Cobalt17 wrote: »

So I’m not talking about a chain-gang style system. But surely prisoners can pay some sort of debt to society, like litter picking or something like that, which benefits the society they’ve sinned against?

Obviously enough there’s the logistics side of things, but is it not still an issue worth exploring?

It worked out well for Andy Dufresne and Red. Those beers sure looked nice

TheBoyConor

No, I'm definitely talking about community employment in the second paragraph. They are a headache.

I'm saying that if CE schemes are bad, imagine how bad prisoners are going to be what with all the extra problems they have.

Community service is a different thing. Sure I know cases where someone was ordered to do hours of CS and because of the nature of their regular job, that qualified as CS so they just worked away as usual and had the parole officer sign off on it.

cian68

If they're paid a fair wage sure

corner of hells

TheBoyConor wrote: »

No, I'm definitely talking about community employment.

Are you sure ? I've been on a CE scheme and cant remember being in prison.
CE schemes heavily vet applicants and while convictions dont exclude you from them , there is no connection between prison and CE schemes.

Rodin

Cobalt17 wrote: »

So I’m not talking about a chain-gang style system. But surely prisoners can pay some sort of debt to society, like litter picking or something like that, which benefits the society they’ve sinned against?

Obviously enough there’s the logistics side of things, but is it not still an issue worth exploring?

I'd have them labouring on new prison construction.
Apparently the current prisons are bursting

square ball

They should definitely have to do something. Prison sentences in this country are not a deterrent to stop people from committing crime. You would imagine if prison was a tougher place to go a certain amount of people after their first visit would straighten themselves out or sort themselves out so they don't have to go back.

It seems to be a bit of a holiday camp especially for frequent visitors who don't mind going back to meet family/friends etc.

kowloon

Need to be careful it doesn't devolve into slave labour.

RandomViewer

square ball wrote: »

They should definitely have to do something. Prison sentences in this country are not a deterrent to stop people from committing crime. You would imagine if prison was a tougher place to go a certain amount of people after their first visit would straighten themselves out or sort themselves out so they don't have to go back.

It seems to be a bit of a holiday camp especially for frequent visitors who don't mind going back to meet family/friends etc.

A gilded cage is still a cage,

corner of hells

TheBoyConor wrote: »

No, I'm definitely talking about community employment in the second paragraph. They are a headache.

I'm saying that if CE schemes are bad, imagine how bad prisoners are going to be what with all the extra problems they have.

Community service is a different thing. Sure I know cases where someone was ordered to do hours of CS and because of the nature of their regular job, that qualified as CS so they just worked away as usual and had the parole officer sign off on it.

Probation officers are not directly involved with Community Serice, they do not sign off .... theres no such title as a Parole Officer in Ireland.

TheBoyConor

corner of hells wrote: »

Are you sure ? I've been on a CE scheme and cant remember being in prison.
CE schemes heavily vet applicants and while convictions dont exclude you from them , there is no connection between prison and CE schemes.

I am sure. I never said CE was anything to do with prison. they are schemes for long term unemployed, or for diversion.
CS is court ordered work.

My point is that from what I have been told, CE schemes are a headache to supervise as you can sometimes end up with people who have problems that might be the source of their long term unemployed status - issues with authority, poor work ethic, no skills or previous work experience to speak of, no common sense, or just being stone fúcking useless in general. For a supervisor who has to babysit them and then do all their other regular work along with it, it is a headache. I'm told they are just more hassle than they are worth.

Again, my point being, if that is what you get with people who are just in on the dole long term, what kind of shítshow are you going to end up being forced to babysit if it is prisoners that you given to do work.

TheBoyConor

corner of hells wrote: »

Probation officers are not directly involved with Community Serice, they do not sign off .... theres no such title as a Parole Officer in Ireland.

yeah OK, the probation i meant. you know what I mean like.

I have a friend who works in this field with offenders, ex offenders and CS. A CS might get assigned to work with them at their workplace, my friend then has to sign off that they did x no of hours, and this then goes to the probation officer.

sasal

square ball wrote: »

They should definitely have to do something. Prison sentences in this country are not a deterrent to stop people from committing crime. You would imagine if prison was a tougher place to go a certain amount of people after their first visit would straighten themselves out or sort themselves out so they don't have to go back.

It seems to be a bit of a holiday camp especially for frequent visitors who don't mind going back to meet family/friends etc.

Tougher sentences do not mean lower rates of reoffending.
Norway has on of the lowest rate of recidivism in the world but if their policies were adopted in Ireland I'm sure people would be screaming about political correctness gone mad.

https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-48885846

Dravokivich

Rodin wrote: »

I'd have them labouring on new prison construction.
Apparently the current prisons are bursting

Prisoners building prisons?

corner of hells

TheBoyConor wrote: »

yeah OK, the probation i meant. you know what I mean like.

I have a friend who works in this field with offenders, ex offenders and CS. A CS might get assigned to work with them at their workplace, my friend then has to sign off that they did x no of hours, and this then goes to the probation officer.

Through my own employment, I regularly interact with Probation Officers, individuals on probation and others on community service. Interesting how people have different perspectives.

TheBoyConor

For anyone that thinks prison here is "easy" then I can tell you it isn't.
My friend has told me all about it as they work with offenders.

There is a constant suspicion about snitches. People who want to get bits of jobs in the prison have to have good behaviour and stay on the right side of the guards. That leads to suspicion of being a snitch, for which you can get cut.
Others can cut you for looking at them wrong. Drugs are a major problem. So is overcrowding. Slopping out was only recently done away with.
The whole notion of irish prisons being like hotels is a complete myth.

the main reason that sentences are so lenient and why most sentences are suspended or poor boxed is because there is no space in the prisons to hold additional people. As such, prison space, in general, is reserved for the most dangerous and the most violent and those most likely to cause harm to the public. Occasionally someone is sent there for more pedestrian crimes like TV licence, tax on garlic etc, just to send a public message on those issues.

corner of hells

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I am sure. I never said CE was anything to do with prison. they are schemes for long term unemployed, or for diversion.
CS is court ordered work.

My point is that from what I have been told, CE schemes are a headache to supervise as you can sometimes end up with people who have problems that might be the source of their long term unemployed status - issues with authority, poor work ethic, no skills or previous work experience to speak of, no common sense, or just being stone fúcking useless in general. For a supervisor who has to babysit them and then do all their other regular work along with it, it is a headache. I'm told they are just more hassle than they are worth.

Again, my point being, if that is what you get with people who are just in on the dole long term, what kind of shítshow are you going to end up being forced to babysit if it is prisoners that you given to do work.

I've been on a CE scheme , have lots of colleagues who are supervisors , I think I've pretty good work ethic , have a trade and third level education and in the past had periods of unemployment.
I took a scheme to keep myself busy

RandomViewer

I get the idea that certain posters are after, mailbag, licence plates like the US , The problem here is th at it is more likely that it would be used to displace real jobs, some people in our society are quite happy to profit off slave Labour, either from prisoners or employment schemes, while that small but connected group exist and have the ear of profit before people politicians it isn't a runner.

kowloon

Dravokivich wrote: »

Prisoners building prisons?

A loose block here, a secret hatch there, I don't see how it could go wrong.

TheBoyConor

corner of hells wrote: »

I've been on a CE scheme , have lots of colleagues who are supervisors , I think I've pretty good work ethic , have a trade and third level education and in the past had periods of unemployment.
I took a scheme to keep myself busy

That's grand and I'm sure you do, and I'm sure plenty of the lads do. But as with anything, along with the good and motivated, there are some of them who are problematic and need to be hand held at every step and a generally a paint to deal with that make the whole process a headache.

RandomViewer

kowloon wrote: »

A loose block here, a secret hatch there, I don't see how it could go wrong.

Dont forget tattooing the plans

TheBoyConor

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I am sure. I never said CE was anything to do with prison. they are schemes for long term unemployed, or for diversion.
CS is court ordered work..........

My Dad did one after taking voluntary redundancy ........ he worked as a care taker in local school. Himself and the other folk on the scheme weren't at all as you describe.

Strumms

They would be pretty limited in what they could do in prison.

If they are taken out of prison for a day a week or whatever they’d need to be supervised, transported etc.. you’d imagine that could or would be prohibitive in terms of cost of operating transportation, security etc...

corner of hells

Augeo wrote: »

My Dad did one after taking voluntary redundancy ........ he worked as a care taker in local school. Himself and the other folk on the scheme weren't at all as you describe.

Poster you are replying to has a "friend " can counteract your point.

Jurgen Klopp

I do remember a nice village that was using people on the CE to tend the flower beds in the village and cut the grass etc being an absolute disaster that the council had to take over it again and use actual workers

The village was known for its famous rose beds, was stunning now, roses in baskets over hanging the river, loads of flower beds at all entrances to the places etc

However once the CE lads took over flowers planted and dying after a few weeks, loads of leaves and briars thrown on footpaths, grass areas only being hit and missed cut along with leaving lumps grass on the road and paths ways etc

I don't know if the workers were just useless or a cute way of getting out of having to do it

Frankly I wasn't too sorry as it was during teh recession and some fulltime council workers who worked those jobs for years were let go and never replaced as the council were licking their lips at the free labour from the unemployed on the scheme and it backfired spectacularly

Dravokivich

Dravokivich wrote: »

Prisoners building prisons?

What could go wrong?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Catedral

freshpopcorn

Outside of the costs involved.
Would anybody really want these lads around there village or town even if they were supervised.

TuringBot47

Cobalt17 wrote: »

But surely prisoners can pay some sort of debt to society,

Definitely the CAB should be going through all their posessions etc after being convicted of any serious offence.
Reduce their dole after release.

Say what you like, but I wish society had the balls to bring back the death penalty for very serious crimes.

TheBoyConor

TheBoyConor wrote: »

For anyone that thinks prison here is "easy" then I can tell you it isn't.
My friend has told me all about it as they work with offenders.

There is a constant suspicion about snitches. People who want to get bits of jobs in the prison have to have good behaviour and stay on the right side of the guards. That leads to suspicion of being a snitch, for which you can get cut.
Others can cut you for looking at them wrong. Drugs are a major problem. So is overcrowding. Slopping out was only recently done away with.
The whole notion of irish prisons being like hotels is a complete myth.

the main reason that sentences are so lenient and why most sentences are suspended or poor boxed is because there is no space in the prisons to hold additional people. As such, prison space, in general, is reserved for the most dangerous and the most violent and those most likely to cause harm to the public. Occasionally someone is sent there for more pedestrian crimes like TV licence, tax on garlic etc, just to send a public message on those issues.

They have PlayStation and TV in the cells.

There's jobs and courses available.

They have a gym and a rec room compete with pool or snooker.

They have movies and books available.

Being 'cut' is exceptionally rare.

TV license prisoners are people who thought they were smarter than the system and refused the dozen chances to avoid prison.

I don't know a criminal that would describe it as 'nice' or like a hotel but I have had honest conversations with many who aren't worried about it and some, usually at their lowest due to drugs and mental health, who welcome it for the treatment and warm bed it will provide.

TuringBot47

TuringBot47 wrote: »

Definitely the CAB should be going through all their posessions etc after being convicted of any serious offence.
Reduce their dole after release.

Say what you like, but I wish society had the balls to bring back the death penalty for very serious crimes.

A and b are great ideas but not new and not popular. I'm baffled why not.

Idea C is a bad one. No matter how bad the sentence is, with a prison cell you can be released and compensated in the event of a wrongful conviction. With a death sentence you can't.

TheBoyConor

Maybe it varies by prison, but I am told that in Cork, there was big suspicion about being a snitch, especially if you were seen doing jobs as you'd have to be on the guard;s good side to be able to get them. Apparently, a lot of people get or used to get cut there. My friend has shown me fellas with visibly scarred faces. There are a lot of fellas who are traumatised from the violence the have experienced in prison. I know one fella who got badly cut in prison in Cork and you'd know by him that it has affected him. Very skittish and distrustful of people.

Another thing that happens is that troublesome prisoners from Dublin are transferred down to to Cork and they get a very hard time of it from the Cork inmates. I suppose the reverse also happens with Cork troublemakers being sent to Dublin or Limerick.

Cobalt17

cian68 wrote: »

If they're paid a fair wage sure

I’d see them more as interns tbh.

steddyeddy

Edgware wrote: »

It worked out well for Andy Dufresne and Red. Those beers sure looked nice

Well seeing as they were American beers they probably tasted like p1ss.

RandomViewer

Augeo wrote: »

My Dad did one after taking voluntary redundancy ........ he worked as a care taker in local school. Himself and the other folk on the scheme weren't at all as you describe.

Brother in law is a seasonal worker, did a scheme through winter,

cruizer101

I think they should, there is plenty of work they could be doing be it pickling litter out of ditches or if they have a skill set they can use, let them use it. Yes there is a cost associated with having to supervise them but stick and ankle bracelet with tracking on and I think it should be workable.

They should be paid for this work, as you don't want it turning into a slave labor type situation like they have in US.
From this pay they should pay tax and there should then be deductions to pay for the accommodation and food they are receiving, the excess they can then choose to spend on luxuries such as cigarettes, console games, whatever. Possibly a certain amount should be set aside to give them when they leave prison to help them get going.

The reasoning here is to try and instill a work ethic in them and also to show them that the reality of life that you work and most of your money goes on essentials like food and accommodation. They refuse to work they don't get to buy luxuries.
Actually getting valuable productivity out of them would be ideal but nearly more of a secondary objective, main purpose of prison is reform.

Edgware

First get rid of anyone in prison for non payment off fines by having a weekly deduction from their welfare or wages. Also if a prisoner is willing to work and does so satisfactorily then give him extra remission. Of course exceptions made for violent criminals.

Lux23

No, I don't think they should be forced to work, but I would be in favour of work programmes where they might learn useful skills that will set them up for a better life on the outside.

Lux23

Lux23 wrote: »

No, I don't think they should be forced to work, but I would be in favour of work programmes where they might learn useful skills that will set them up for a better life on the outside.

Already exists

Montage of Feck

Put them on thread mills to generate green energy.

El_Duderino 09

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Unions for the people who normally do that type of work would be up in arms over it claiming that some of their work is being taken away to be done by unpaid labour and that it harms their future propects and will reduced opportunities for people who might be inclined to start at that job.

And the unions would be absolutely right - the unions would be the only ones in a position to actually stand up and say anything. The people who would lose out are the low skilled or unskilled workers who would otherwise do the jobs.

And calling it unpaid labour is a nice way of saying slave labour. I'm not in favour of slave labour or unpaid labour or any other way you want to phrase it. If a society wants a job done, like litter picking, then they should allocate the funds and pay for it. If the proposal was to pay the prisoners the going rate to do the work, then it might have merit. But absolutely no to slave labour.

El_Duderino 09

kowloon wrote: »

Need to be careful it doesn't devolve into slave labour.

It would start at slave labour. I would worry it would devolve into a scheme which some people profit from the slave labour of others. If you turn the prisons into a source of slave labour then there's less incentive to reduce the prison population through crime reduction.

kowloon

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It would start at slave labour. I would worry it would devolve into a scheme which some people profit from the slave labour of others. If you turn the prisons into a source of slave labour then there's less incentive to reduce the prison population through crime reduction.

Yes, it already was slavery, private prisons profiting off captive labour is what I had in the back of my head. Particularly when the system flips on its head and the justice system becomes concerned with providing a labour force.

square ball

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It would start at slave labour. I would worry it would devolve into a scheme which some people profit from the slave labour of others. If you turn the prisons into a source of slave labour then there's less incentive to reduce the prison population through crime reduction.

Except on the part of the people committing the crimes maybe.

ShatterAlan

square ball wrote: »

They should definitely have to do something. Prison sentences in this country are not a deterrent to stop people from committing crime. You would imagine if prison was a tougher place to go a certain amount of people after their first visit would straighten themselves out or sort themselves out so they don't have to go back.

It seems to be a bit of a holiday camp especially for frequent visitors who don't mind going back to meet family/friends etc.

This argument has been done to fcuking death. It's a proven fact that Irish prisons are not pleasant places. Prisoners do NOT get sky TV and playstations. They do NOT get michelin star food, in fact they get a fryup once a year and that's on Christmas Day...and that's it. So talk about them being like holiday camps is pure drivel.



It is also a proven fact that harsher prison conditions do NOT deter criminality. Rehabilitation is the only proven method of ensuring a reduction in recidivism. People who trot cliches like "an eye for and eye" or "can't do the time don't do the crime" or any other such stupid slogans really should stop to think before tey open their mouths.



Look at the methods that work and have proved to work. Then look at the methods that don't work and have proved not to work and then make a logical choice.

corner of hells

ShatterAlan wrote: »

This argument has been done to fcuking death. It's a proven fact that Irish prisons are not pleasant places. Prisoners do NOT get sky TV and playstations. They do NOT get michelin star food, in fact they get a fryup once a year and that's on Christmas Day...and that's it. So talk about them being like holiday camps is pure drivel.



It is also a proven fact that harsher prison conditions do NOT deter criminality. Rehabilitation is the only proven method of ensuring a reduction in recidivism. People who trot cliches like "an eye for and eye" or "can't do the time don't do the crime" or any other such stupid slogans really should stop to think before tey open their mouths.



Look at the methods that work and have proved to work. Then look at the methods that don't work and have proved not to work and then make a logical choice.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://amp.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/prison-service-spends-325000-so-inmates-can-watch-sky-sports-38472562.html&ved=2ahUKEwj67NL-9L3pAhX0pHEKHfKhBwQQFjAAegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw0kb62xESyp8D77fzsGHSjq&ampcf=1

Feckin ' prison service telling porkies.

Omackeral

corner of hells wrote: »

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://amp.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/prison-service-spends-325000-so-inmates-can-watch-sky-sports-38472562.html&ved=2ahUKEwj67NL-9L3pAhX0pHEKHfKhBwQQFjAAegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw0kb62xESyp8D77fzsGHSjq&ampcf=1

Feckin ' prison service telling porkies.

Work in the prison service 12 years, first I’ve ever heard of them charging prisoners for Sky in their cells! In my place, they had it shown in communal rec halls but never in cells.

Funnily enough, they have given them Netflix as of late as there are no visits anymore and the prisoners are locked back the majority of the day. It’s a universal master profile in that they don’t get to control it. It’s all done remotely. Some of the stuff they’re letting them watch though... you wouldn’t believe me!

corner of hells

Omackeral wrote: »

Work in the prison service 12 years, first I’ve ever heard of them charging prisoners for Sky in their cells! In my place, they had it shown in communal rec halls but never in cells.

Funnily enough, they have given them Netflix as of late as there are no visits anymore and the prisoners are locked back the majority of the day. It’s a universal master profile in that they don’t get to control it. It’s all done remotely. Some of the stuff they’re letting them watch though... you wouldn’t believe me!

Feckin indo telling lies.

Omackeral

Not saying they’re lying, saying I’ve never heard of that set up myself. Could well be the case in some places!

CrankyHaus

Lux23 wrote: »

No, I don't think they should be forced to work, but I would be in favour of work programmes where they might learn useful skills that will set them up for a better life on the outside.

Agreed. It might be possible for their work to subsidise the work/learning programme, either by performing a function that would have to be paid for otherwise, or by creating some transferable value. My understanding is that those programmes are oversubscribed so anything that subsidises them increases availability.

Beyond that I'm sceptical of forcing prisoners to work. Most wouldn't be fit for much more than basic manual labour and would have to be watched carefully to prevent F Ups.

Omackeral wrote: »

. Some of the stuff they’re letting them watch though... you wouldn’t believe me!

Do tell.