Garden Fence and Privacy

karlitob

Hi all

Jointly owned fence (party structure) is dilapidated and falling down. Neighbour can look right into our kitchen - when they are in the garden; and we can both look into each other’s when we both sit in each other’s garden.

I note the planning regs that state that 2m max in the back can be erected but would anyone know if I (or any of us) have the right to privacy. In other words, do I have a right to erect a fence that would give us privacy (particularly if the other person doesn’t want to).

Appreciate if someone could direct me to some reading or legislation. I’ve read the coco planning regs and the Land and Conveyancing Act 2009.

Thanks all.

Marcusm

You can erect it on your own land without the neighbour having any say in the matter provided it is compliant.

karlitob

Marcusm wrote: »

You can erect it on your own land without the neighbour having any say in the matter provided it is compliant.

Thank you. And noted.

But if a person does not want to cede land - adverse possession and all that......Does one have a right (or at least an ability to legally argue the point) that a party fence can be erected on the basis of a right to privacy.

In other words one can erect anything on their property (within planning regs) but that erection need not be on the basis of a right to privacy.

nuac

MOD
Do not rush to lawyers over an issue such as this between neighbours. Such litigation can poison relationships for generations.
Have a friendly chat with your neighbour.

So eager to go down the legal route and argue.

A fence, completely on your land will be giving up about 6 inches of land if even. Yes it would be nice if both sides agreed and even better if both paid but that doesnt always happen. Besides, if you erect the fence you can make all the decisions about it

Discodog

Are these fences common? In the UK the deeds indicate who owns the boundary.

karlitob

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

So eager to go down the legal route and argue.

A fence, completely on your land will be giving up about 6 inches of land if even. Yes it would be nice if both sides agreed and even better if both paid but that doesnt always happen. Besides, if you erect the fence you can make all the decisions about it

Thanks for that.

To be fair, you don’t know the situation nor the length of time that is involved. There’s no ‘eager’ness to go down the legal route. I didn’t indicate that I wished to; rather I wish to get a sense of my rights to contextualise the conversation. And as you would accept, both parties need to sit at the table.

I take the point about the 6inches - as I’ve noted above, I understand that I can do that ....although in this instance I cannot because of the same reasons the other party but forward. If I affect the roots - which I would need to to put in a foundation - i would affect the party tree.

My question was on what rights I have in terms of privacy in this context.

Thanks for your time in replying.

karlitob

Discodog wrote: »

Are these fences common? In the UK the deeds indicate who owns the boundary.

Yes, common.

GreeBo

You could reinstate the fence as is and then plant something that is or will grow higher.
That way there is no legal issue over boundaries and you resolve the privacy issue.

karlitob

nuac wrote: »

MOD
Do not rush to lawyers over an issue such as this between neighbours. Such litigation can poison relationships for generations.
Have a friendly chat with your neighbour.

Understood, agreed and tried. Need two to have a conversation with. I’m asking this advice to understand the context. Which I appreciate.

listermint

GreeBo wrote: »

You could reinstate the fence as is and then plant something that is or will grow higher.
That way there is no legal issue over boundaries and you resolve the privacy issue.

I really am struggling to understand this thread.


Fence is in bad state of repair.


Why not repair it on build a new on in its place.


Why ?


And why haven't you popped round to say this to them.

listermint

karlitob wrote: »

Understood, agreed and tried. Need two to have a conversation with. I’m asking this advice to understand the context. Which I appreciate.

Context.


Hi John.

I notice our fence is in a bad way. Was thinking about putting up a new one. Any thoughts ? I could get quotes and we could share the cost..





There's context.

GreeBo

listermint wrote: »

I really am struggling to understand this thread.


Fence is in bad state of repair.


Why not repair it on build a new on in its place.


Why ?


And why haven't you popped round to say this to them.

You are assuming that a 2m fence will provide privacy.

Harry Palmr

Put up a two metre fence then plant some strategic fast growing bamboo which top out at three metres

(edit ignore me I assumed this was the garden or DIY forum)

Victor

karlitob wrote: »

But if a person does not want to cede land - adverse possession and all that......Does one have a right (or at least an ability to legally argue the point) that a party fence can be erected on the basis of a right to privacy.

1. The parties can agree to replace the fence on the existing fence line.
2. If the parties can't agree, the Act has procedures.
3. In erecting a second, parallel fence, it can the erected in such a fashion to overhang the existing fence by half.
4. There is case law that one can't occupy a drainage ditch for adverse possession purposes. It could be argues that the same applies to an extent fence.

GreeBo wrote: »

You are assuming that a 2m fence will provide privacy.

It should provide substantial privacy. Curtains / blinds also help.

GreeBo

Victor wrote: »

It should provide substantial privacy. Curtains / blinds also help.

Possibly, but would look weird in the garden...

2M is fine if both neighbours ground is 2m below the top of the wall, with decks etc it might not be.
I had an issue when a neighbour built a deck and was then looking over the top of the fence into my kitchen.

listermint

GreeBo wrote: »

You are assuming that a 2m fence will provide privacy.

I'm assuming nothing. The OP said fence was dilapidated so inferring from that it's broken in places resulting in visibility of they can look at each other sitting in the gardens

OP has given no other indication nor said anything else.

karlitob

listermint wrote: »

I really am struggling to understand this thread.


Fence is in bad state of repair.


Why not repair it on build a new on in its place.


Why ?


And why haven't you popped round to say this to them.

Exactly my point - but They don’t want it repaired. Said it’s fine.

And I don’t need to pop around lol - it’s open, see right in. Hence I was wondering about right to privacy.

karlitob

listermint wrote: »

Context.


Hi John.

I notice our fence is in a bad way. Was thinking about putting up a new one. Any thoughts ? I could get quotes and we could share the cost..





There's context.[/quote

Let me add to what you missed out on around the conversation

‘No, f**k off’.

More context for you.


I didn’t give everyone the life story of this Issue. I just wanted to know if anyone could direct me to legal reading to aid my understanding to see how I can progress with this issue. If you can’t offer that I understand.

karlitob

Victor wrote: »

1. The parties can agree to replace the fence on the existing fence line.
2. If the parties can't agree, the Act has procedures.
3. In erecting a second, parallel fence, it can the erected in such a fashion to overhang the existing fence by half.
4. There is case law that one can't occupy a drainage ditch for adverse possession purposes. It could be argues that the same applies to an extent fence.


It should provide substantial privacy. Curtains / blinds also help.

Thanks. Good point about putting it up in such a way as to it being right tight up.

Two points
- the roots of trees cross both properties so damaging the roots could damage the tree When I sink foundations and I understand that that is illegal is it substantially alters the structure as half is his. The roots extend a good bit into both properties.
- I need to dig post hold foundations which need a 100mm circumference - this would come onto his land but the above point holds on the roots.

I would note that it’s not just fence - it’s a mess of a number of fences, trees and roots.

karlitob

listermint wrote: »

I'm assuming nothing. The OP said fence was dilapidated so inferring from that it's broken in places resulting in visibility of they can look at each other sitting in the gardens

OP has given no other indication nor said anything else.

Correct

KaneToad

karlitob wrote: »

Exactly my point - but They don’t want it repaired. Said it’s fine.

And I don’t need to pop around lol - it’s open, see right in. Hence I was wondering about right to privacy.

You don't have to have a fence between you for a boundary to exist. Neighbour doesn't want to share the bill to reinstate old fence because

A) neighbour loves being close to you and being able to see you [and you them] all of the time

Or

neighbour suspects you're going to reinstate fence irrespective of their contribution so are mean enough to sit on their hands and then benefit from the new fence

If I was a betting man....

karlitob

KaneToad wrote: »

You don't have to have a fence between you for a boundary to exist. Neighbour doesn't want to share the bill to reinstate old fence because

A) neighbour loves being close to you and being able to see you [and you them] all of the time

Or

neighbour suspects you're going to reinstate fence irrespective of their contribution so are mean enough to sit on their hands and then benefit from the new fence

If I was a betting man....

I wish it were but it’s a total refusal to engage.

Peregrinus

Provided it's an exempt development (or you get planning permission, of course) you can repair the existing boundary fence at your own expense, or replace it with a new boundary fence. The repaired or new fence will still be jointly owned, even though you have paid for it. You have no right to enter on your neighbour's land to do the work, so choose a design/type of fence that can be erected entirely from your side (or get his agreement to enter on his land to do the work).

You don't have to appeal to a "right of privacy" to justify this; you are simply practicing good land management by keeping boundary markers and fences in good order. An appeal to a "right of privacy" won't give you any greater rights than this; for example, you have no right to erect a fence higher than 2m (without planning permission) by arguing that it has to be this high to prevent him from seeing in from his elevated deck, or his upstairs window, or whatever

karlitob

karlitob wrote: »

Thanks for that.

To be fair, you don’t know the situation nor the length of time that is involved. There’s no ‘eager’ness to go down the legal route. I didn’t indicate that I wished to; rather I wish to get a sense of my rights to contextualise the conversation. And as you would accept, both parties need to sit at the table.

I take the point about the 6inches - as I’ve noted above, I understand that I can do that ....although in this instance I cannot because of the same reasons the other party but forward. If I affect the roots - which I would need to to put in a foundation - i would affect the party tree.

My question was on what rights I have in terms of privacy in this context.

Thanks for your time in replying.

You lost me, what tree? All I saw in your post was a common fence.

You don't need deep foundations for a fence nor even a full foundation. And all of that will be in your land.

Victor

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

You don't need deep foundations for a fence nor even a full foundation.

That really depends on the fence. If it is a wire fence, sure, no problem. A low fence, work away. A solidly braced fence, knock yourself out.

However, a solid fence, 2 metres high with shallow foundations can easily blow over in a gale. Even a concrete block wall without piers can blow over in a gale.

Victor

Victor wrote: »

That really depends on the fence. If it is a wire fence, sure, no problem. A low fence, work away. A solidly braced fence, knock yourself out.

However, a solid fence, 2 metres high with shallow foundations can easily blow over in a gale. Even a concrete block wall without piers can blow over in a gale.

Your average fence doesn't need a big foundation. It's a fence not a house after all. Depending on how you build it, couple of spikes will do fine.

Not really sure it's that important though, my point was that you can work away on your own land without causing your neighbors any issues

comfort

I read this thread with great interest.

I had a similar issue with neighbour at the end of my garden as his back garden runs across the end of mine.

I had asked each neighbour would the contribute 50% to the replacement of a boundary fence made of wood with block (Cavity Block). No body came back with an answer so decided they were not interested and knowing that the wooden fence would in time rot and become unstable.
So I took it upon myself to build a cavity wall 2m high just inside the boundary fence running down the length of my garden and across the bottom. Now I also made sure that as the foundation for the wall would mean I would be losing 2 feet approx of land and for this reason made sure that the end of the wall at the bottom of the garden was not running completely to an existing wall which would allow me to walk in between the cavity wall and the wooden boundary fence as it is still my property and I have cabling running along the wall (non-electrical).

The neighbour at the bottom of my garden has since removed the wooden fencing without asking. I have ask for him to put it back and he replied saying that he removed it as it was a danger to his kids (who have never been out in his back garden due to there being 2 rothweillers ) and now I cannot walk between the cavity wall and the boundary fence due to the dogs. Luckily they cannot acmes my garden now as I have had to put a stack of standard blocks at the end of the wall.

So I am now restricted to walk behind the cavity wall.

karlitob

comfort wrote: »

I read this thread with great interest.

I had a similar issue with neighbour at the end of my garden as his back garden runs across the end of mine.

I had asked each neighbour would the contribute 50% to the replacement of a boundary fence made of wood with block (Cavity Block). No body came back with an answer so decided they were not interested and knowing that the wooden fence would in time rot and become unstable.
So I took it upon myself to build a cavity wall 2m high just inside the boundary fence running down the length of my garden and across the bottom. Now I also made sure that as the foundation for the wall would mean I would be losing 2 feet approx of land and for this reason made sure that the end of the wall at the bottom of the garden was not running completely to an existing wall which would allow me to walk in between the cavity wall and the wooden boundary fence as it is still my property and I have cabling running along the wall (non-electrical).

The neighbour at the bottom of my garden has since removed the wooden fencing without asking. I have ask for him to put it back and he replied saying that he removed it as it was a danger to his kids (who have never been out in his back garden due to there being 2 rothweillers ) and now I cannot walk between the cavity wall and the boundary fence due to the dogs. Luckily they cannot acmes my garden now as I have had to put a stack of standard blocks at the end of the wall.

So I am now restricted to walk behind the cavity wall.

No - he as removed a jointly owned, legally owned, party structure on a boundary line. He removed it without your permission or with any agreement on what would replace it. It’s clear that he waited until you did what you did, and will eventually claim your land citing adverse possession.
If it were me - I would ask him to reinstate the party structure on the boundary line.

Your only options here are convince him to put it back up, take money from him to cover the cost of your new wall (though perhaps accepting the loss of land), accept it, knock your wall so that it’s open and force the issue (including using legislation to ensure that he ensures the safety of the public by adhering to the requirements of Rottweiler legislation; and you can always contact all the house insurers with his name and address and the situation; obviously this has a risk to you - just staying it as an option) or go to court.

What a b******x though. Sorry you’re having to go through this. It’s a very stressful situation, and a costly one.

ted1

KaneToad wrote: »

You don't have to have a fence between you for a boundary to exist. Neighbour doesn't want to share the bill to reinstate old fence because

A) neighbour loves being close to you and being able to see you [and you them] all of the time

Or

neighbour suspects you're going to reinstate fence irrespective of their contribution so are mean enough to sit on their hands and then benefit from the new fence

If I was a betting man....

Or c. Neighbour can’t afford to pay

karlitob

ted1 wrote: »

Or c. Neighbour can’t afford to pay

If they said that, I would accept it. But they can afford to drink and do other things to their house but not contribute to the legally and jointly owned responsibility to the safe upkeep of their party structure as well as mine.
We could have come to an agreement on costs and length of time taken to repay. Sure I don’t have the money either for a boundary that should’ve been there when I bought the house - but it’s the responsible thing to do.

But you are right, it’s an option. However the poster was correct, it’s cos they knew I was going it and now they’ve gotten a fence for nothing.

punisher5112

Plant a hedge right up to it, let it grow, let fence collapse, you still then have a boundary.