ADVICE: How to get back into teaching for returning ex-pat teacher

RealJohn

Mango Joe wrote: »

I really am not trying to change your mind or point of view as at the end of the day is matters not one bit to me how you ultimately perceive this sorry situation - I've said my piece and even repackaged it for clarity and accessibility, but alas to no avail.

I would however appreciate it if you could please stop twisting and misrepresenting what I did actually say either out of your own genuine failure to understand it or some odd predisposition towards disingenuous mischief-making.

To anyone else reading the thread, honestly please ignore the enhanced backpedaling re-written narrative and read the original script.

The only one misrepresenting you is you. The only one misunderstanding you is you. What you’re saying is easy to understand for anyone who actually understands the situation. I appreciate that this probably doesn’t include you. You haven’t said, but I get the sense that you’re not actually involved in primary or secondary education (or education at all, I suspect), so it’s quite understandable that you wouldn’t have a good grasp on the issues.

Could you clarify please, which do you consider more important: a good system or good teachers? (Let’s pretend you can only have one, for the sake of clarity.)

Which do you think would be preferable: good teachers in a bad system or bad teachers in a good system? (Again, let’s pretend you can only have one.)

amacca

I think a big reason that students are leaving unable to do anything is because they've not been made do anything. When I went to school you actually had to do what you were told and there was an expectation you had to be able to answer a question in class, prepare for class, work at gaining understanding etc etc and although there was and probably always will be an undercurrent of dismissiveness in students towards other students hat worked hard at the academic side of things there was still a culture being intelligent and hard working on the academic side of things having some value/being respected to some degree even among students. Now they can do very very little and the teacher can spend a month of sundays chasing them to no avail - in fact probably to the detriment of the teacher if they dont give up and fairly quick.

To me thats been on the decline for years and to blame the system/the teachers is ignoring the fact that society/the culture surrounding both of them probably has the biggest influence. Schools are and probably will always be reactive in nature. They reflect to a large degree what society values around them (albeit with a bit of a time delay).......If you want educational standards/outcomes to improve then society has to value that (and not just pay lip service to it ) and it needs to be something thats part of the culture outside the school. Thats the fact of the matter for me. Society itself just doesnt value it as highly as it used to (at least at a surface level) and until it does (for whatever reason) standards will continue to decline......

It just doesnt have as high a value as it used to because its not perceived as being as important as it was (or even important at all) by a growing percentage of society and parents out there. The parents that value education nearly above all else are very much in the minority in my experience and dont forget they are the audience. Also dont forget the ones that do place this high value on it have the funds/ways and means to supplement their childs education or avoid problems by going private or both or they know its their kids only way out and they wont rock the both but now more than ever will instead go to the ends of the earth to work within the system and make it work. There used to be more of that latter category that realised its a two way street and they have to put in the effort to reap the rewards imo.

Start looking at the cohorts .....there are people being forced to go to school..and I mean forced by the state...their parents couldnt give a toss either way for whatever reason if they went or not.......

There are people going to school because its a better situation than staying home

There are people being sent in to get them out of the house because mammy and/or daddy just want them out from under them for a while so they can get a breather but mammy and/or daddy dont really care all that much how they get on academically or place any value on it for many reasons..its just childcare to them

There are students going to schools and their parents are terrified (rightly or wrongly) about their mental health and while they would like to see them do well they dont/want to put any pressure on them ...just in case.....There is a lot more of this now imo

People now are more informed and there are more options when it comes to getting a qualification so the LC and preparatory JC just are not the be all end all the media likes to make them into with their annual pantomime ....you can apply as a mature student, do a diploma, level6, level 7 etc........thats a release valve there that means some dont give a toss as they think they can get what they want anyway and why put too much pressure on themselves. there are people attending school and their plan is to get pregnant and get the free house etc and live off the state....

then there is the positive mental health/mindfulness stuff floating around.....30/40 years ago a parent wanted to know how they were getting on academically and if they werent getting on why not ...whereas nowadays its more common to hear statements such as "I dont mind what they get as long as they are happy"

What a lot of parents value in teachers now is the one that doesnt bother them regardless of what little Johhny might have been doing that would be wholly unacceptable in any other environment.

You just have to look at the latest guff thats being peddled as educational reform particularly at JC level to see what society values now and get an insight into why some students are barely able to tie their own shoelaces leaving school now....there is imo very little can be done to them in an environment thats pretty much without consequence if they are not towing the line academically and they dont just sense that they know it...society out there doesn't value it and they know that too. If most of them had to do the kind of academic work even an average student had to do 30 years ago I think they would die of shock....the system has moved towards a skill based approach and appears to be abandoning the acquisition of knowledge...which is a massive mistake imo as being skilled involves applying knowledge you gain and sometimes (a lot of the time imo) that knowledge has to be gained by hard graft - the kind of thing that just isnt glamorous to anyone who thinks they are engaged in "reform"

Then theres the conditioning they get from their tech/devices/media etc.....its all reinforcing instant gratification and eroding self control or developing an ability to delay gratification ... so more students find things "hard" that would have been easy for the same age group years ago ...thats why I see many people that are still teenagers at heart even in their mid/late twenties...college is the new secondary school......when they start having to do roll call and run around after people at third level thats when you know the system is crumbling and will take a while to go full circle...but the pressure now is turning more towards entertaining them during a class which can be truly exhausting and leaves little energy for running around afterwards dealing with disciplinary issues and getting fought/abused every step of the way in many cases....OH had a student come up to them the other day with what amounted to less than a paper cut wanting to get out of class (She told me a graze would be overstating what the child complained about) ...there was a couple of minutes to go until bell rang so she told her to wait until class over ...anyway after class she sees the student outside the office with a no doubt unnecessary plaster after a parent being called and overheard the parent saying something along the lines of ah sure come home theres no point in being here........the kid had rang the parent....and the parent was fool enough to be at their beck and call....that situation would never have occurred years ago and I doubt such a parent existed either.....what the hell is that teaching a child...no wonder some of them have little or no resilience/capacity to deal with adversity/make an effort to overcome an obstacle etc

Then look at why thats happening at third level, its a numbers/money game...thats how you get the grants/fees etc....thats not what the teaching/lecturing side of 3rd level used to be about at least primarily which brings me to undermining pay/conditions of people that work in the area of education, churn out 10 times more graduates than you need for teaching positions and reduce the barriers to entry to flood the jobs market and get a nice little lever to lower pay/conditions and enrich a very small number of people in the process...that too shows what sort of value society places on education.

I could keep going...to me its no wonder they know less and less.

Treppen

After one year I still want to know if OP was primary or secondary

RealJohn

Agree with pretty much everything amacca said.
More and more, the attitude in society (or at least among a vocal cohort) is that knowledge and expertise are “snooty and elitist” (not specifically a dig at Joe, but he’s provided an example for us), that “there are other types of learning and knowledge” and that basically everything we’ve done to put us in such a good position in modern life is oppressing someone. Any child who doesn’t achieve isn’t failing, they’re just being failed by a system that’s not evaluating and valuing their strengths appropriately.

Some day, we’ll look back and laugh, but first, this will all get worse.

James Bond Junior

I'm following this thread as I am teaching abroad and want to know about any developments or advice for when I return. Please stop clogging it up with criticisms of Irish teachers and/or the Irish education system.

FYI I am a school principal who is hiring ATM and my school in the ME has a strict policy of hiring UK, Irish and possibly OZ/NZ trained teachers only, no exceptions. If we see any other background in training, it's cast to the bin.

Why? Because British and Irish teachers are the best trained, most up to date with pedagogy, curricular knowledge, literacy and numeracy strategy, most organised in planning and above all else, know what the fúck they are at.

I've various other western nationalities on my staff and they are 20 years behind UK/Irish bordering on useless. The past few posters haven't a clue what they are talking about if they think teachers in Ireland are behind the times. The days of the múinteoir sitting at the top of the room reading the Independent whilst smoking a Carroll's No. 10 are firmly in the dark ages.

amacca

James Bond Junior wrote: »

I'm following this thread as I am teaching abroad and want to know about any developments or advice for when I return. Please stop clogging it up with criticisms of Irish teachers and/or the Irish education system.

FYI I am a school principal who is hiring ATM and my school in the ME has a strict policy of hiring UK, Irish and possibly OZ/NZ trained teachers only, no exceptions. If we see any other background in training, it's cast to the bin.

Why? Because British and Irish teachers are the best trained, most up to date with pedagogy, curricular knowledge, literacy and numeracy strategy, most organised in planning and above all else, know what the fúck they are at.

I've various other western nationalities on my staff and they are 20 years behind UK/Irish bordering on useless. The past few posters haven't a clue what they are talking about if they think teachers in Ireland are behind the times. The days of the múinteoir sitting at the top of the room reading the Independent whilst smoking a Carroll's No. 10 are firmly in the dark ages.

You are firmly behind the times if you think we aren't well on the way to catching up with the other "western nationalities" due to the various reforms etc .....

A stint teaching here in your average school might open your eyes...what you might be experiencing is a good work ethic and a genuine desire to educate but the system/society certainly doesn't value or respect that much. (In different ways) Anyway my argument wasn't a criticism of teachers ...it was a criticism of the direction the system is travelling right now and that might be something to consider for someone considering returning to teaching here.

It may also be something for you to consider. It might just be possible that you are still hiring the kind of graduates that won't be as plentiful in the future. Don't get me wrong there will be plenty of graduates but you may have to be more discerning.

Read the new JC syllabus for science in its entirety and come back to me

You are correct on the days of sitting at the top of the room reading the independent and smoking the Carroll's being long gone..thats been long gone for a long time.... however what's replacing it recently isn't much better as the days of not being given the environment/backup to manage a classroom properly and being second guessed/ undermined/devalued are ushered in........general behaviour and application no matter the methodology has declined to the farcical and a lot of teachers have to spend their time baby sitting with junior groups and policing with more senior students rather than teaching (in any form) etc.

Anyway food for thought when you do return....cant say I envy you tbh.

Blush_01

amacca wrote: »

You are firmly behind the times if you think we aren't well on the way to catching up with the other "western nationalities" due to the various reforms etc .....

A stint teaching here in your average school might open your eyes...what you might be experiencing is a good work ethic and a genuine desire to educate but the system/society certainly doesn't value or respect that much. (In different ways) Anyway my argument wasn't a criticism of teachers ...it was a criticism of the direction the system is travelling right now and that might be something to consider for someone considering returning to teaching here.

It may also be something for you to consider. It might just be possible that you are still hiring the kind of graduates that won't be as plentiful in the future. Don't get me wrong there will be plenty of graduates but you may have to be more discerning.

Read the new JC syllabus for science in its entirety and come back to me

You are correct on the days of sitting at the top of the room reading the independent and smoking the Carroll's being long gone..thats been long gone for a long time.... however what's replacing it recently isn't much better as the days of not being given the environment/backup to manage a classroom properly and being second guessed/ undermined/devalued are ushered in........general behaviour and application no matter the methodology has declined to the farcical and a lot of teachers have to spend their time baby sitting with junior groups and policing with more senior students rather than teaching (in any form) etc.

Anyway food for thought when you do return....cant say I envy you tbh.

For someone who isn't criticising teachers, you're doing a pretty poor job of sounding like you're not criticising them.

Are you working in a classroom yourself, or is everything seen through your OH's viewpoint?

Your trite diatribe on the current state of students is virtually the same criticism that was levied against those of us in our 30s now when we were the same age. Keep despairing, it happens on a cyclical basis, People thought the world was doomed when you were a child too.

amacca

Blush_01 wrote: »

For someone who isn't criticising teachers, you're doing a pretty poor job of sounding like you're not criticising them.

Are you working in a classroom yourself, or is everything seen through your OH's viewpoint?

Your trite diatribe on the current state of students is virtually the same criticism that was levied against those of us in our 30s now when we were the same age. Keep despairing, it happens on a cyclical basis, People thought the world was doomed when you were a child too.

Fair enough that's your opinion and you are entitled to it. I think however if you reread my recent posts in this thread and you are fair minded you will see they are not criticising teachers at all.

FWIW I don't think the world is doomed at all, you may be reading that into what I've posted I'm afraid. I do think standards are slipping however and I stand by that opinion as do I stand by the opinion that teachers are not at fault.

But time will tell I suppose. Have a nice evening.