Black people 4X more likely to die from Covid-19

splashuum

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1258323242768576513

Shocking enough statistic to report. Various other media outlets reporting the same. Some of the black community are saying this is racist.
Do these stats stem from genetic differences or lifestyle choices?

jojofizzio

splashuum wrote: »

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1258323242768576513

Shocking enough statistic to report. Various other media outlets reporting the same. Some of the black community are saying this is racist.
Do these stats stem from genetic differences or lifestyle choices?

Ah Jaysus...how is it racist??PC gone mad....

PhantomHat

jojofizzio wrote: »

Ah Jaysus...how is it racist??PC gone mad....

Indeed. Feelings trump facts for some

ixoy

Clickbait. Even a few paragraphs into the article, it says that it's actually much more closely linked to a higher percentage of these racial groups living in deprived areas. It's the deprivation, and associated problems (such as over crowded living conditions) that are the primary problem.

How does that compare with the stats in the US and Canada I wonder? Is it a case of social circumstance more than any genetic make up.

CinemaGuy45

ixoy wrote: »

Clickbait. Even a few paragraphs into the article, it says that it's actually much more closely linked to a higher percentage of these racial groups living in deprived areas. It's the deprivation, and associated problems (such as over crowded living conditions) that are the primary problem.

Well it worked we clicked.;)

Charles Babbage

splashuum wrote: »

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1258323242768576513

Shocking enough statistic to report. Various other media outlets reporting the same. Some of the black community are saying this is racist.
Do these stats stem from genetic differences or lifestyle choices?

In Britain, people of Bangladeshi origin are about twice as likely to die as people of Indian origin. I wonder if their genes are so different?

MAJJ

ixoy wrote: »

Clickbait. Even a few paragraphs into the article, it says that it's actually much more closely linked to a higher percentage of these racial groups living in deprived areas. It's the deprivation, and associated problems (such as over crowded living conditions) that are the primary problem.

Absolutely and sadly but not suprisngly in these US communities are not very integrated. Also many heavy industries in these areas has caused more asthma.

biko

Probably connected to

NHS staff from black, Asian and minority ethnic backgrounds will be given different roles
away from the frontline under plans to reduce their disproportionately high death rate from Covid-19.

CinemaGuy45

splashuum wrote: »

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1258323242768576513

Looks like this shocking post this not make the splash you had expected.:D

jam_mac_jam

Probably due to a combination of factors. If a higher proportion of black people may work in the NHS, could be related to poverty and increased rates of obesity in poorer populations and other underlying conditions like diabetes. I wonder is vitamen D deficiency a factor.

Richard Hillman

The figures are not about cases, it is about deaths. They are 4 times more likely to die if contracting the virus.

It's nothing to do with living in cramped housing or working in an essential service.

silverharp

biko wrote: »

Probably connected to

isnt that kind of racist

DelaneyIn

Medically, Black people :

1) more likely to have disseminated microclots in the lungs - Journal of Haematology.

https://www.genengnews.com/news/blood-clotting-patterns-in-lungs-of-covid-19-patients-may-help-explain-apparent-differences-in-mortality/

2) have more ACE 2 receptors on the apical surface of their lung epithelium = more severe damage and sequelae

Both are researched and published reasons for these racial differences.

Yellow_Fern

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The figures are not about cases, it is about deaths. They are 4 times more likely to die if contracting the virus.

It's nothing to do with living in cramped housing or working in an essential service.

Viral load probably has a factor. If you catch the virus by repeated exposure, the risk of death could well be higher than a once off encounter in theory. Are black people particularly prevalent in the NHS? That been said I think obesity, living in cramped cities and perhaps undercounting of black people could be far bigger factors.

Xertz

The one thing about a crisis like this is it will show up the socioeconomic cracks in a society.

I would strongly suspect this has more to do with populations being very heavily focused on urban England, the % of people in front line roles in healthcare and so on.

While black people in England have seen huge progress, you’re talking about a population that faced very significant racism over the decades that limited opportunities, particularly back in the 50, 60, 70s and 80s and that will have shaped where families opted to live, career choices and so on.

It’s still a major issue - look at the Windrush generation and how they were treated and that is recent.

Much like I would actually say you’d have had strong stats for Irish people in England had this occurred a couple of decades ago. You had large populations of Irish people in areas like Brixton and generally what we’re working class parts of London and other big cities. That’s changed as you’ve had a different pattern of migration (more professionals and very few labourers) but I would suspect you’d find a lot of the old Irish communities making up some of those stats. You’d also have seen a very high % of Irish nurses back in the day and many of their colleagues were Afro Caribbean, African and also Indian.

I don’t really think the reasons for higher impact on black and Asian communities in England should be any surprise, particularly not to Irish people, especially those who experienced post war Britain.

Yellow_Fern

Xertz wrote: »

The one thing about a crisis like this is it will show up the socioeconomic cracks in a society.

I would strongly suspect this has more to do with populations being very heavily focused on urban England, the % of people in front line roles in healthcare and so on.

While black people in England have seen huge progress, you’re talking about a population that faced very significant racism over the decades that limited opportunities, particularly back in the 50, 60, 70s and 80s and that will have shaped where families opted to live, career choices and so on.

It’s still a major issue - look at the Windrush generation and how they were treated and that is recent.

Much like I would actually say you’d have had strong stats for Irish people in England had this occurred a couple of decades ago. You had large populations of Irish people in areas like Brixton and generally what we’re working class parts of London and other big cities. That’s changed as you’ve had a different pattern of migration (more professionals and very few labourers) but I would suspect you’d find a lot of the old Irish communities making up some of those stats. You’d also have seen a very high % of Irish nurses back in the day and many of their colleagues were Afro Caribbean, African and also Indian.

I don’t really think the reasons for higher impact on black and Asian communities in England should be any surprise, particularly not to Irish people, especially those who experienced post war Britain.

Young Irish nurses are still plentiful in the UK. English women don't enter nursing so much. There is no evidence that racism has any relevance here. Its actually quite unlikely. The fact that ethnic minorities live in cities, are more likely to be fat or are over represented in health has nothing to do with racism that happened 50 years ago. Some 'brown people' ie Indian English earn more than white English.

Lux23

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

There is no evidence that racism has any relevance here. Its actually quite unlikely. The fact that ethnic minorities live in cities, are more likely to be fat or are over represented in health has anything to do with racism that happened 50 years ago.

Why? Have you evidence that shows systemic racism doesn't result in Black People, for example, living in poverty with less access to healthy food, spaces to exercise and decent medical care?

Danzy

splashuum wrote: »

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1258323242768576513

Shocking enough statistic to report. Various other media outlets reporting the same. Some of the black community are saying this is racist.
Do these stats stem from genetic differences or lifestyle choices?

Genetics is a major problem in this.

Xertz

Given the very well researched socioeconomic issues and the history of discrimination and circumstances around recent waves of immigration tending to mean very high representation in front line healthcare and big urban areas, I wouldn’t jump to any conclusions about genetics.

Correlation and causation aren’t the same thing and all too often people jump to convenient conclusions. The likely reality is that it’s largely socially and economically driven.

If you look at Victorian analysis about the Irish famine, their first conclusions were that the Irish were intrinsically flawed and ignored British government social policy.

Societies don’t tend to want to point criticism at their own flaws and it can be a lot easier to just jump to a technical conclusion that it’s something to do with the injured party’s intrinsic make up.

I would be very, very cautious about just jumping to any genetic conclusions without evidence, particularly when you’re looking at communities that have been at considerable social and economic disadvantage due to their history of immigration and still becoming part of the establishment, and also due to what is unfortunately just race based discrimination. While that may be less of a feature and less tolerated now, it will have shaped families and economic opportunities and that’s only perhaps one generation ago.

Yellow_Fern

Lux23 wrote: »

Why? Have you evidence that shows systemic racism doesn't result in Black People, for example, living in poverty with less access to healthy food, spaces to exercise and decent medical care?

I presume you do given that such a phenomenon is probably unheard of in Europe, bar perhaps France, and I dont know why anyone would even suggest it. BTW yes I do have evidence that UK obesity is not driven by systemic racism. Black Africans in the UK have totally different obesity rates than black Caribbeans in the UK. Black Caribbeans tend to really fat. Black Africans not so much and actually Irish in the UK are more fat. Chinese there have lower obesity than natives. It is most likely cultural-genetic-class rather than racism related. Black predisposition to fatness is recognised in the NHS lower obesity bench mark for black.

Danzy

Danzy wrote: »

Genetics is a major problem in this.

Ah..race is a social construct..

Yellow_Fern

Xertz wrote: »

Given the very well researched socioeconomic issues and the history of discrimination and circumstances around recent waves of immigration tending to mean very high representation in front line healthcare and big urban areas, I wouldn’t jump to any conclusions about genetics.

Correlation and causation aren’t the same thing and all too often people jump to convenient conclusions. The likely reality is that it’s largely socially and economically driven.

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Black, Asian and other minority ethnic groups
Black, Asian and other minority ethnic groups have a higher risk of developing some long-term (chronic) conditions, such as type 2 diabetes.

https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-weight/bmi-calculator/

bloodless_coup

So much tempting things to say.

Collie D

bloodless_coup wrote: »

So much tempting things to say.

many

Xertz

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-weight/bmi-calculator/

That again doesn’t explain the cause of those. You could equally throw up a statement saying : working class northerners are at higher risk of obesity (and they really are) It’s just that it’s not socially acceptable to say that anymore, but if you’re categorising by race, somehow it is.

I can’t imagine the NHS printing: “Those of a working class background should be aware of a high risk of heart disease.” Yet they genuinely do have a much higher risk and it’s not genetic. It’s diet and lifestyle related, which is down to social and economic issues.

Correlation conclusions are often accepted in this kind off stuff in ways they probably shouldn’t be.

Yellow_Fern

Xertz wrote: »

That again doesn’t explain the cause of those. You could equally throw up a statement saying : working class northerners are at higher risk of obesity (and they really are) It’s just that it’s not socially acceptable to say that anymore, but if you’re categorising by race, somehow it is.

I can’t imagine the NHS printing: “Those of a working class background should be aware of a high risk of heart disease.” Yet they genuinely do have a much higher risk and it’s not genetic. It’s diet and lifestyle related, which is down to social and economic issues.

Correlation conclusions are often accepted in this kind off stuff in ways they probably shouldn’t be.

The NHS, researchers and doctors talk about the varying risks of working class and northerners all the time. There is abundant evidence that fat accumulation patterns are linked to genetics and there is also obvious cultural factors that make this far worse (low fibre starch dishes are very popular in central African cuisines for example) and in my opinion culture of individual families is the biggest factor. Habits come from the home. It is well known that south Asians are more prone to belly fat but if you community expects you to walk around in kebaya and not engage in sports then that is a worse factor.

splinter65

Lux23 wrote: »

Why? Have you evidence that shows systemic racism doesn't result in Black People, for example, living in poverty with less access to healthy food, spaces to exercise and decent medical care?

Can you give me an example of “systemic racism” in practice in the UK?

Metroid diorteM

Isn't it about the ace 2 receptor and isn't that a genetic factor?

Xertz

splinter65 wrote: »

Can you give me an example of “systemic racism” in practice in the UK?

I'm not saying that the UK is bad place to be a member of an ethnic minority, but there are definite and well documented issues around institutional racism and there are plenty of studies into issues around employment opportunities and so on.

Also when you're looking at impacts on health and social status, they're often multigenerational. So, you aren't just looking at the current relatively progressive social environment in 21st century Britain, but the impact of discrimination in the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s. People faced significant barriers to opportunity and integration in those eras and that impacts the generations that follow them.

The big change in the UK really occurred post 1980s, when you started seeing a major opening up of opportunity and racism becoming unacceptable and started to see much more representation of ethnic diversity in media and culture and so on.

There's also a reality that a significant percentage of those communities are 1st or 2nd generation arrivals in the UK and it genuinely does take time to establish and integrate and that's a challenge, even without discrimination.

Ultimately, I'd be confident that it won't be a significant issue at some stage in the future, unless society took a massive retrograde step, but there are still major issues both legacy and current which impact social and economic status for various minority groups in the UK and elsewhere.

Yellow_Fern

Xertz wrote: »

I'm not saying that the UK is bad place to be a member of an ethnic minority, but there are definite and well documented issues around institutional racism and there are plenty of studies into issues around employment opportunities and so on.

Also when you're looking at impacts on health and social status, they're often multigenerational. So, you aren't just looking at the current relatively progressive social environment in 21st century Britain, but the impact of discrimination in the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s. People faced significant barriers to opportunity and integration in those eras and that impacts the generations that follow them.

The big change in the UK really occurred post 1980s, when you started seeing a major opening up of opportunity and racism becoming unacceptable and started to see much more representation of ethnic diversity in media and culture and so on.

There's also a reality that a significant percentage of those communities are 1st or 2nd generation arrivals in the UK and it genuinely does take time to establish and integrate and that's a challenge, even without discrimination.

Ultimately, I'd be confident that it won't be a significant issue at some stage in the future, unless society took a massive retrograde step, but there are still major issues both legacy and current which impact social and economic status for various minority groups in the UK and elsewhere.

If disadvantage can occur without historic racism I have no idea why you are so quick to use it explain slightly different outcomes and in some cases disadvantage.

To me the expectation that if immigration families don't do as well as every everyone else that there is an external cause like racism is so outlandish. If your parents are millet farming villagers in the Thar desert then yes you might be have some disadvantage growing up in Norwich. Racism can happen but it should be treated as a null hypothesis.

Xertz wrote: »

The big change in the UK really occurred post 1980s, when you started seeing a major opening up of opportunity and racism becoming unacceptable and started to see much more representation of ethnic diversity in media and culture and so on.

Many Asian British earn great money because do not enter media and cultural jobs, instead they enter professions. This maybe because not many in the media and culture were Asian and because their families prioritise affluence in a way English people don't.

Xertz wrote: »

I'm not saying that the UK is bad place to be a member of an ethnic minority, but there are definite and well documented issues around institutional racism and there are plenty of studies into issues around employment opportunities and so on.

But can you share some?